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Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TryDeletingMe/Archive

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TryDeletingMe

28 August 2019

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Suspected sockpuppets

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For the record. From my talk page: [1]

  • TDM was blocked on 10 October 2018. 3 days later TM was created. The latter was inmediately capable of using the ref templates as a typical experienced editor [2]
  • Although TM claims on their talk page that they are a British South African, their edits are almost 100% dedicated to crimes committed against Serbs and to obscuring the collaboration of Serbian nationalist Chetniks with Nazi and Communist forces. TDM's focus was the same as TM's.
  • TDM once expanded the caption of a file [3]. Some weeks later, TM added the file on another article with a caption that had the same way of wording [4]
  • TDM once wrote some text on Chetnik crimes against Serbs [5]. TM added a very similar text to another article [6]
  • TDM tried to somehow justify the Chetnik collaboration with Axis forces with their desire to avoid Serb victims like those of Kragujevac and Kraljevo [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chetniks&diff=prev&oldid=829412876. They wrote two mass murder campaigns against innocent Serbian civilians in Kraljevo and Kragujevac. With the combined death toll reaching over 4,500 civilians. TM too tried to somehow justify the Chetnik collaboration with Axis forces with their desire to avoid Serb victims like those of Kragujevac

and Kraljevo [7] TM wrote two mass murder campaigns conducted against Serbian civilians in Kraljevo and Kragujevac, reaching a combined death toll of over 4,500 civilians.

(Courtesy of Ktrimi991.) Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 17:54, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other users

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Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

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04 September 2019

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Suspected sockpuppets

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DictorialRed made a few edits here and there on articles not related with Serbia, and then stayed off Wiki. The same method was used by ThreatMatrix, a sock of TryDeletingMe. The account became active again in August, some two hours after TM was blocked. Like TDM and TM, DR has a rather bizarre focus on crimes committed against Serbs and on obscuring the collaboration of Serbian nationalist Chetniks with Nazi and Communist forces. Since the beginning DR was able to use the ref templates and other templates as an experienced editor, and the very first edit was the addition of a link to World War II persecution of Serbs [10]. TDM and TM continously placed on various articles links to that particular article.

  • DR once added the following content [11] The execution methods used by the Ustaša were particularly brutal and sadistic and often included torture, dismemberment or decapitation. Compare with TD [12] The Ustaše carried out extensive means of torture and methods of killing against detainees which included but not limited to: inserting hot nails under finger nails, mutilating parts of the body including plucking out eyeballs, tightening chains around ones head until the skull fractured and the eyes popped and also, placing salt in open wounds and TM [13] The Ustashe carried out the most gruesome of killing methods including and not limited to: mutilating parts of the body including plucking out eyeballs and beheading, tightening chains around ones head until the skull fractured and the eyes popped, cutting off female victims breasts and also, cutting out wombs from pregnant women. The sadistic, cruel and genocidal policies of the Ustashe shocked even Nazi commanders. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:07, 4 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other users

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Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

  • Thank you @KrakatoaKatie: for the CU. I do not think DR and KW are the same person. Either they are two people who happen to live in the same place (roommates, family members etc) or this is a case of a person using an account to make edits on behalf of a friend who lives somewhere else (to avoid scrutinity?). In any case, the behaviour and interests of DR and KW are totally different. Anyways, the one who decides here is not me, and I hope that if the accounts are allowed to edit, they will stick around and enrich the encyclopedia. After all, that is what every editor is supposed to do. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:08, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

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20 July 2021

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Suspected sockpuppets

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I think that ElderZamzam (EZ) is a sock of TryDeletingMe (DM). Two years ago I reported DM's previous sock, ThreatMatrix (TM).

  • DM and their sock were focused on the Yugoslavia conflicts, doing Serb nationalism POV pushing aimed at describing other parties of the conflicts as terrorists, highlighting crimes committed by non-Serbs in the conflicts in UNDUE ways or writing content in that way that gave the impression that the conflict was started by non-Serbs only. Examples include [14][15][16][17][18]. The same thing is being done by EZ, with examples including [19][20].
  • In all these years on Wiki, I have seen and reported many Balkan editors, POV pushers and sock masters, but the only one with deep interest in air flight and related documents (airports, entry rights, passports and visa stuff) has been DM [21][22][23][24][25][26]. Their sock, TM, even mentioned their favourite airline and jets in their userpage [27]. EZ is doing the same thing [28][29][30].
  • In all these years, DM has been one of the only two Serb nationalism POV pushers with a major focus on the Middle East's wars (the other being VJ-Yugo). Examples include: [31][32][33]. DM's userpage contained flags of Middle Eastern armies/warlords [34]. EZ is doing the same thing [35][36][37][38][39][40][41].
  • DM edited from Australia. EZ edits from Australia. If needed, I would like to send the evidence for this via email.
  • To sum up, in all of these years, TryDeletingMe and ElderZamzam have been the only Serb nationalism POV pushers with all the following characteristics: an unique deep interest in air flight and related documents, focus on Middle East wars and geolocation in Australia. I doubt another Serb nationalism POV pusher (or some other Balkan POV pusher, for that matter) would have all of these at the same time. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:40, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Furthermore, DM's sock was the only Serb nationalism POV pusher who claimed to be South African [42]. EZ is the only Serb nationalism POV pusher who is editing South African stuff around [43][44]. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:09, 20 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other users

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Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

Why was I not tagged in this at the onset of the investigation, it is unfair that I had to stumble on this rather than being notified two days earlier. Ktrimi991 your argument rests on two edits I made which you have spun to illustrate a narrative that I am a POV Serbian nationalist pusher. A quick look at the edits in question would demonstrate that is not the case:

  • Edit 1: I discussed early military operations in the town of Tuzla between a multinational police force and the JNA.
  • Edit 2: I discussed the ideological divide within the KLA.

Both edits do not relate to the topic of "terrorists, highlighting crimes committed by non-Serb...gave the impression that the conflict was started by non-Serbs only." Your accusation is both false and misleading. I recently made an edit to the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) page and discussed the mistreatment of Albanians at the hands of the KLA, does that make me a POV Albanian nationalist pusher?

In my defense:

  • Of all my edits to wiki pages (32 to date), 14 have been related to the topic of the Balkans in general (43%). Of those, none have been related to "terrorists, highlighting crimes committed by non-Serb...gave the impression that the conflict was started by non-Serbs only." In a previous sockpuppet case, you (Ktrimi991) identified a sockpuppet of DM based on the fact that (100%) of their edits were related to the topics of the Balkans and their fascination with the holocaust. None of my posts have been related to the holocaust in any shape or form.
  • My accused deep interest in the topic of airlines has been predominately related to Pakistani travel affairs. I can see that DM did not touch on Pakistani travel affairs. An accused POV Serbian nationalist showing a keen interest in Pakistani travel affairs and citizenship laws is peculiar?
  • It is true, I do have a keen interest in Middle Eastern affairs, particularly related to battles (11 edits in total). Did DM dedicate 50% of their edits in this space or are your accusations solely based on images they posted on their user page? On a previous sockpuppet investigation on 28 August 2019 related to DM, you stated that a sockpuppet of DM was identified solely based on the fact that their edits were "100% dedicated to crimes committed against Serbs and to obscuring the collaboration of Serbian nationalist Chetniks with Nazi and Communist forces."
  • Australia is a nation of 25 million people.
  • Last but not least, the South African affair. Reading the archive it states that DM was apparently a British South African and you accuse me of being DM based on editing "South African stuff around." The edit in question is related to the recent unrest in South Africa, a world event aired on all major news channels. Both my edit to this page and Spin Boldak (related to the current Taliban offensive) have stemmed from me becoming aware of these incidences, given that they are world news.ElderZamzam (talk)


  • For future reference, if someone else opens a second SPI, the patterns of activity should be taken into consideration and analyzed. For example, as shown in the links below, both ElderZamzam (nowadays) and ThreatMatrix (two years ago) have in average 1.6 edits per active day. For both accounts the largest number of edits in a single day is 4 ("The most frequent day in this period: / / (4)" in the links below). These might be useful if someone else opens a SPI in the future and wants to gather new evidence.
  • 1. [45]
  • 2. [46]

@Ktrimi991: thank you for the statistics, it also provides evidence in my defense. Your average is based over 29 days (ElderZamzam) and 319 days (ThreatMatrix) (hardly a fair comparison). It also shows that ThreatMatrix was predominately active on a Saturday and enjoyed using image templates as opposed to myself who is active throughout the weekday and have not used an image template. ElderZamzam (talk)

TryDeletingMe [47] has many differences with ThreatMatrix, but still the latter is a sock of the former. For that matter, TryDeletingMe edited all the week, like you. Had a similar average number of edits per active day (2.5) with you and ThreatMatrix, and in 183 edits only once used an image template. Interestingly, all of you never edited during between 20:00 and 22:00 UTC (in the Edits by Hours diagram, 20 and 21 are empty). In any case, the average number of edits per active day was what I was pointing out. Please do not ping me here - I just had left a note for future reference. Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:24, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

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08 November 2021

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Suspected sockpuppets

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Previous socks: ThreatMatrix (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

All three accounts edit subjects which have to do with Serbia, Kosovo and disputes around Serbia-Kosovo relations.

Other topic similarities:

Military and diplomacy of countries of Asia and South America:[48][49][50][51][52][53] and [54][55][56][57][58][59]

Common interests include minute edits which are shared only by them: ThreatMatrix removed from Ramush Haradinaj the phrase where he later be promoted to platoon commander [60], ElderZamzam did the same thing [61] two years later.

Timecard similarities: [62][63]

Typing similarities: [64][65][66] [67][68][69][70]

Some info I picked from a talkpage discussion with an admin in addition to new edits I found: [71]

If a CU shows that they are possibly the same person, then their identical edits (see Ramush Haradinaj example) strongly suggest that this is indeed TryDeletingMe. Ahmet Q. (talk) 22:54, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New diffs

  • 15th-20th edit: ElderZamzam asks for semi-protection[72] Not sure how many new users go straight for a semi-protection request after 15 edits.
  • Marking Bosniaks in the Yugoslav wars as Islamic extremists who collaborated with the Mujahideen: ElderZamzam [73] TryDeletingMe [74][75][76][77] (marking Albanians as supported by the mujahideen)
  • Waffen SS Skanderbeg: ElderZamzam [78] (Waffen SS Skanderbeg), TryDeletingMe [79]
  • "KLA hit and run tactics": TryDeletingMe [80] "KLA terrorism initially started out as co-ordinated hit and run attacks on Serbian security forces in Kosovo" ElderZamzam [81] "At one point during the Kosovo War, the KLA changed their tactics from hit and run operations to conventional warfare"
  • Air force edits: ElderZamzam [82] ThreatMatrix [83]
  • Australian army: ElderZamzam [84] ThreatMatrix [85]

TryDeletingMe had on his userpage a Kekistan flag (alt-right symbol) and a flag of the Baathist Assad regime in Syria [86] and [87] explained himself as Unfortunately there are many users who engage in spreading pro-Daesh/Salafi ideology via Wikipedia edits. These flags serve those users a reminder that there are people like myself who will hold them accountable for their actions

ElderZamzam edits about Baathist Iraq [88] The missiles fired against Israel were conventional warheads and were not of chemical origin. Had chemical warheads been loaded, casualties would have been far greater and the Taliban [89] All major government/military officials including President Ghani have fled the country or switched allegiances to the Taliban. The advances by the Taliban have not been disputed and there appears to be no popular uprising against their advances, on the contrary their advances have met virtually no resistance. Thus, hostilities have essentially ended with only sporadic lawlessness and peaceful transfers in progress

The spread of common topics between TryDeletingMe, ThreatMatrix and ElderZamzam goes far beyond topics which are common for people who come from the same country of the Balkans. They range over such a wide spectrum which makes it very unlikely that this is just a coincidence and not simply the result of all three being the same person. Ahmet Q. (talk) 22:50, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other users

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Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

At least I was alerted, which is good. Ahmet Q. you have followed in the footsteps of the previous sock puppet investigation by using false and misleading information. In my defense:

  • The timecards are not similar. My predominant editing at UTC 11:00 and 22:00 does not mirror the editing of TryDeletingMe. In addition, the inactive time shows we are in the same geographical region and does not assume we are the same person.
  • The Military and diplomacy of countries of Asia and South America comparison shows edits made by TryDeletingMe on pages including List of destroyed heritage, List of Seinfeld characters and List of submarines of World War II. How do these pages relate in any way to the "Military and diplomacy of countries of Asia and South America". You are packing the comparison with random diffs in the hope nobody would check. This alone is worrying.
  • The edits made on the Ramush Haradinaj page are not identical. I made five changes on the Ramush Haradinaj page while TryDeletingMe made two. We overlap on one edit.
  • The "Typing similarities" just demonstrate that both TryDeletingMe and I post on talk pages and user pages. Are we the only people who do this, absolutely not. ElderZamzam (talk) 23:54, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies to the Wikipedia Administrator who has to weight in on this investigation as it is dragged on once again. Unfortunately Ahmet Q. is once again using false and misleading information after their first attempt was rejected. This is now the third time including the previous sock puppet investigation that the same material is being used. Once again in my defense:

  • Not all people get a handle of Wikipedia editing at the same pace, if you Ahmet Q advanced in a different manner then that is your experience that can't be projected on others.
  • My edit on the Al-Qaeda in Bosnia and Herzegovina page discussed a detailed narrative of Al-Qaeda operating in Bosnia. The edits made my TryDeletingMe are just random edits of Mujaheddin flags on unrelated pages. These edits do not overlap in any manner.
  • My edit on the Kosovo Liberation Army page discussed its ideology. In one sentence I referenced an article that stated that its descendants could have been SS Skanderbeg members (to which I refuted myself in the talk page as it was unlikely). TryDeletingMe discussed atrocities committed by the Waffen-SS SS Skanderbeg, something which I did not do.
  • My edit on the Kosovo Liberation Army page discussed changes in tactics. TryDeletingMe made a single reference to hit and run tactics in the context of terrorism. I have not mentioned that the KLA are terrorists in any way shape or form.
  • My edit on the Australian Red Ensign page discussed how a flag is being used by anti-vaccine groups in Australia. TryDeletingMe discussed a historical interaction between the Australian Army and Yugoslav Resistance. These edits do not overlap in any manner.
  • I find it bizarre that you are claiming that my edits on the Afghan Civil War and Gulf War are related to TryDeletingMe's user page depicting a flag of Kekistan and Syria. Please elaborate as this is extremely bizarre?

In summary, Ahmet Q is putting together random diffs that a) do not match and b) have no coherency. In a previous sockpuppet investigation, a sockpuppet of TryDeletingMe was identified on 28 August 2019 as their edits are almost 100% dedicated to crimes committed against Serbs and to obscuring the collaboration of Serbian nationalist Chetniks with Nazi and Communist forces. My edits do not align with TryDeletingMe as a precedent has been set with what is actually associated with the TryDeletingMe case. ElderZamzam (talk) 09:23, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

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