Talk:4L (group)

J-na's birthday

There'll be a birthday party for J-na in Philippines on August 31 (https://www.facebook.com/events/1527303724152863/?ref=3&ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular). Seems like her date of birth reported in the pt.wiki 4L's page (September 1) is correct, but I'm not sure about the year. --93.66.104.38 (talk) 07:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

To me, it seems a party organized by the fans from Philippines. --Chiya⁹² 12:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, September 1 as her date of birth seems correct. There have been many birthday wishes on Twitter and a post on the official Facebook page. However, before adding it we need a more reliable source. --Chiya⁹² 09:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed some awards

Per previous consensus, I removed fan-run awards. This led to removal of the entire Awards section. Shinyang-i (talk) 00:16, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

New sources

The sites being used to replace Allkpop links are no better than Allkpop was. Newsway, The Dispatch, and Daum are not reliable sources. Daum is a search engine that aggregates other sites' stories. The other two are tabloids. Shinyang-i (talk) 15:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Hangul

It is not standard on Wikipedia to have hangul for every single version of every single name. Stage names are not real names; their hangul is not important. People's real names are what matter. If you feel there is insufficient information on each member, then find some actual biographical information on them (with reliable sources) and write it all up in prose. Then you can easily include the hangul to their stage name and given names in with all the information. If there is no biographical info in existence and they are that non-notable, then the hangul of their stage names hardly matter, do they? So please stop re-adding the stage name hangul along with their real names and hangul. Shinyang-i (talk) 07:21, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 29 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: There is consensus to move these pages using (group) as a disambiguator. (page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 12:07, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

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• 4L (band) → 4L (girl group)
• Bestie (band) → Bestie (girl group)
• Black Pearl (South Korean band) → Black Pearl (girl group)
• CLC (band) → CLC (girl group)
• Chakra (band) → Chakra (girl group)
• Chocolat (band) → Chocolat (girl group)
• Cleo (band) → Cleo (girl group)
• DIA (band) → DIA (girl group)
• Diva (South Korean band) → Diva (girl group)
• Dreamcatcher (band) → Dreamcatcher (girl group)
• F(x) (band) → F(x) (girl group)
• Favorite (band) → Favorite (girl group)
• Girl Friends (band) → Girl Friends (girl group)
• I.B.I (band) → I.B.I (girl group)
• JQT (band) → JQT (girl group)
• Jewelry (band) → Jewelry (girl group)
• Kara (South Korean band) → Kara (girl group)
• Kiss (South Korean band) → Kiss (girl group)
• Lip Service (band) → Lip Service (girl group)
• Loona (band) → Loona (girl group)
• Luv (band) → Luv (girl group)
• Milk (South Korean band) → Milk (girl group)
• Nine Muses (band) → Nine Muses (girl group)
• Papaya (band) → Papaya (girl group)
• Playback (South Korean band) → Playback (girl group)
• Rainbow (South Korean band) → Rainbow (girl group)
• Red Velvet (band) → Red Velvet (girl group)
• Rubber Soul (band) → Rubber Soul (girl group)
• S.E.S. (band) → S.E.S. (girl group)
• SOS (Indonesian band) → SOS (girl group)
• Secret (South Korean band) → Secret (girl group)
• Spica (band) → Spica (girl group)
• Stellar (South Korean band) → Stellar (girl group)
• Tahiti (band) → Tahiti (girl group)
• The Grace (band) → The Grace (girl group)
• Twice (band) → Twice (girl group)
• Unicorn (South Korean band) → Unicorn (girl group)
• Wassup (band) → Wassup (girl group)

– The groups that are the subject of these article are categorized as "girl groups" (except for the Indonesian group, are in Category:South Korean girl groups), and most of these are also described in the lede of their article as a girl group. Sources are also more likely to refer to or describe each of these as a "girl group", and not as a band - for example, Opinion: Why New “Inkigayo” Rulings on 19+ Music Videos Will Not Work (stating "Witness, for example, the debut of 4L, a girl group which has yet to appear on a single mainstream music show".); Bestie poses in school outfits for release of new digital mini-album (saying "Girl group Bestie surprised fans yesterday by announcing that it will release a new digital mini-album on Friday".); KISS reunites on ‘Sugar Man’, sings “Because I’m A Girl”, reveals reason they broke up (stating "Girl group KISS, which debuted in 2001, reunited on ‘Sugar Man‘"...); Girl Group Rainbow Confirmed To Disband; TWICE to drop new Japanese single album (stating "Girl group TWICE will put out a new Japanese-language single album titled "Candy Pop" on Feb. 7, its agency said Friday). As there has been some dispute as to whether an ensemble of singers who generally do not play any instruments constitutes a "band", these title changes will prevent any confusion by clearly identifying the nature of the ensemble. To the extent that some of these titles are ambiguous, it immediately distinguishes them by the type of performance in which they engage. bd2412 T 16:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - No. There's absolutely no reason for it. Beatles (boy group) doesn't exist - we don't classify bands by gender. Just because bands are referred to as girl groups on soompi.com doesn't mean we move pages. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 16:22, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
  • This is not a gender-based distinction; it is a specific style of music, described in the article, girl group. As for classification, we do classify these groups this way, which is why there is Category:South Korean girl groups. bd2412 T 16:40, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
    • Note aside, the Beatles were not a boy group (or boy band, which is the correct term), because they didn't harmonize like NSYNC or One Direction. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 18:26, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, since it has the word "girl" in it and you wouldn't categorize male bands as a "girl group," it is ultimately gender-based. And we also have categories saying "Male country-singers" or whatnot, but we don't have that as an appendage to their name. To be fair I didn't realize this is a sort of term used within K-Pop, but I still see no reason to use it, especially when (band) is all there is currently. And well, NYSNC isn't NSYNC (boy band) either, if you get my point. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 21:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Neither NSYNC (band), perhaps because it is completely unnecessary to have the group with parenthesis, so no, I don't see your point because there is none. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 23:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

No need to be an asshole, Tbhotch (talk · contribs) ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 23:50, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Pointing out facts and fallacies is not, but if you feel right by insulting me, then OK, that's up to you. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 23:55, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support per the meaning of band (music). This was added to WP:BANDDAB but never applied. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 18:26, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose the term girl group is contentious as it is considered by some to be derogatory and patronising to women and suggestive of youth, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 20:05, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose at this time per WP:WAW#Male is not the default. This is an essay, but it is applicable here. And I usually agree with bd2412, but not here. Category:American boy bands contains over 30 groups with disambiguators, none of which is forced to use "boy group" or "boy band." Category:South Korean boy bands has over 80 groups with disambiguators, none of which uses "boy group" or "boy band," etc. To distinguish "girl groups" from other groups while not distinguishing "boy groups" from other groups reinforces the biased idea that the "boy groups" are the norm. Dekimasuよ! 21:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Can you point out where it is said that "(boy band)" cannot be used? Because a band (music) (call them The Rolling Stones or The Bangles) is not the same as a boy band or girl group (Backstreet Boys or Spice Girls). © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 23:12, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support per nomination which, in the lead sentence, points to the parent Category:South Korean girl groups. Moreover, there is the overall parent Category:Girl groups by nationality, which contains 59 subcategories and is analogous to Category:Boy bands by nationality, which contains 40 subcategories. As has been previously mentioned, "girl group" is a musical term which is no more sexist, derogatory or patronizing to women than "boy band" is to men.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:25, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
• @El cid, el campeador, Atlantic306, and Dekimasu: would it be better if they were just at "(group)", consistent with comparable vocal ensembles like 1 of the Girls (group), 702 (group), 7669 (group), A La Carte (group), All Saints (group), Alma Bella (group), Arabesque (group), Brown Sugar (group), Brownstone (group), Candies (group), Centerfold (group), Changing Faces (group), Cherish (group), Eternal (group), Exposé (group), GAM (group), Hey Girl (group), Jomanda (group), Kitchen Party (group), Leading Ladies (group), Lyric (group), Mango (group), Milk & Honey (group), OMG (group), One Voice (group), Pajama Party (group), Peaches (group), Queens (group), RD (group), Reflex (group), Risqué (group), Seduction (group), Sierra (group), Songbirds (group), Stargard (group), Stockholm Syndrome (group), Suzy Q (group), TLC (group), TSD (group), Taurus (group), The Cheetah Girls (group), Total (group), Twins (group), Uptown Girls (group), Venus Flytrap (group), W (group), and Xscape (group)? bd2412 T 23:17, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Would prefer (group) to (girl group) but overall would prefer band. As to "boy" bands that is also problematic as a genre, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 23:50, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Same - band > group > girl group. "Band" is best because it doesn't call for differentiation based upon genre, ie K-Pop vs rock or whatnot. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 14:37, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

The ping didn't work, but I don't take any issue with the "group" part. At first glance I would be neutral in that case, not having reviewed the band vs. group issue much lately. Dekimasuよ! 18:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. Why not just use the disambiguator "music group"? It eliminates any implications of gender, age, and style of music. It is broad enough to include most (if not all) types of music ensembles, but also not overly vague like the usage of "group" is. ℯxplicit 05:49, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree. I had the same concerns for both. Lonedirewolf 10:00, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support, but I support the change, but rather than “girl group” it should simply be “group”, per WP:BANDDAB. Adding “girl” simply isn’t necessary. However, if these groups are also being changed, then all the boy bands also need to be changed to group over band, including BTS (band) and Exo (band). Alexanderlee (talk) 13:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose the main proposal per Atlantic306 and Dekimasu; Support using "music group" instead. --Mαuri ’96 (talk · cont) 20:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose all (band) is the standard dab here. These moves could potentially lead to duplicate articles being created and confusion. I noted 29 November 2018‎ Hiddenstranger moved page TSD (band) to TSD (group) reverted. That could refer to sleep disorders. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:03, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Move all to (group) which is the method straight out of WP:BANDDAB for when the leads are vocalists (ie not performing on instruments). -- Netoholic @ 22:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to "(group)", as per WP:BANDDAB (eg TLC (group)) Accireioj (talk) 05:10, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to (girl group) Band is like Beetles or Queen. But Red Velvet is not a kind of singer group like that. They aren't playing musical instruments, of course. And a girl group is a word using for the idol which consists by girl, and this shouldn't be gender topic. In Korea, the term 'girl group' is widely used as the meaning of "female idol" 인천직전 (talk) 11:03, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to (group) for both girl groups and boy bands as per WP:BANDDAB. However, "band" is clearly the most frequently used right now (there is 1 instance of "group" on Category:South Korean girl groups as opposed to 57 for "band"; similarly, there are 4 instances of "group" on Category:South Korean boy bands as opposed to 79 for "band"), and the classification of "band" seems to work quite well, being fitting enough and already common. Nevertheless, it would be good to follow WP guidelines since that is why they exist. ChromeGames923 (talk) 04:25, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• I support Alexanderlee's opinion. The word "girl" (or "boy") is not necessary. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 05:09, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to (group) except in cases where "(girl group)" is required for disambiguation. I would support moving boy bands to (group) as well. feminist (talk) 09:58, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to (group) per Alexanderlee's nomination. None of them play instruments, and thus aren't a band, but specifying "girl" is unnecessary, unless there happens to be a boy group with the same name. DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 15:30, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, where is the idea/definition that bands must play instruments coming from? ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 23:48, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

"People who play instruments" actually seems to be the first music-related meaning, as bands originally referred to "organized groups" usually of armed men, who were identified by bands they wore on their clothes. --Mαuri ’96 (talk · cont) 06:05, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@El cid, el campeador: For the sake of this move request, I'm using WP:BANDDAB, which defines a band as a "musical ensemble [where] members perform by playing musical instruments." DanielleTH ^{(Say hi!)} 23:25, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @DanielleTH:, and to be fair @Mauri96: definition =/= eytomology ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ^ᐐT₳LKᐬ 01:13, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, @El cid, el campeador:, you asked where the definition was "coming from", so I thought you meant etymology. --Mαuri ’96 (talk · cont) 01:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support move to (girl group), first choice, or (group), second choice. Moving away from (band) is required by the naming convention at WP:BANDDAB ("Use "(group)" when the musical ensemble members do not perform by playing musical instruments"). Opposition to including "girl" in the title seems to be WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS with an insinuation that being a girl, or being referred to as a girl, is bad. I agree with Roman Spinner that "girl group" is the musical term used in sources, and is not sexist or derogatory. I also think that much weight should be given to the comment by 인천직전, the only South Korean participant in a discussion on what groups from South Korea should be called. CNMall41 (talk) 07:30, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
• Comment, if we will follow the guideline (WP:BANDDAB), this discussion should not take longer as it is clear there to: "Use "(band)" when the musical ensemble members perform by playing musical instruments, for example Garbage (band) or Town & Country (band)" (means Buzz (band), IZ (band) and The Rose (band) are all correct as example); and "Use "(group)" when the musical ensemble members do not perform by playing musical instruments, the members are mainly vocalists, and other people perform by playing musical instruments. Within this includes all non-performing boy bands (One Direction) and girl groups (Spice Girls), for example TLC (group) or RD (group)". The word "girl" or "boy" is still unnecessary as per the guideline, so boy groups like BTS (band) should be BTS (group). -- Accireioj (talk) 07:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support move to (group) - clear to the guideline WP:BANDDAB and avoids any further issues like co-ed groups, rare but examples like Coed School (band) or Triple H (band) Evaders99 (talk) 03:05, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The new titles resulted in this move discussion are as follows: