Talk:Abdullah II of Jordan

External links order

I have re-ordered the links for appropriateness; the official website of the king should be placed at the top of the list. I removed a duplicate link to the king's website and altered a link that pointed to a personal blog (POV) to point to the referenced Washington Post article. - Cybjorg 07:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Frequent unexplained removal of image

Can someone explain why the subject's picture (File:The King of Jordan in 2013.jpg) keeps getting removed? The image is appropriately licensed and does not violate any other policies that I'm aware of. I'm not going to restore the image because I have done so once already and was reverted again, but I will do so if, after a reasonable amount of time after opening this discussion, no legitimate reason to remove the image has been put forward. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:21, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Of course you should restore it. "Removed an image" is hardly a justification for, well, removing an image - especially when the image is the article's best. Surtsicna (talk) 20:30, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I've restored it a bunch of times already over the past few weeks. In order to avoid edit warring, I wanted to see if there was something I was missing. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 20:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

spelling error

in 2nd paragraph:

"Abdullah, was born to Hussein from his second wife, the ethically British Princess Muna al-Hussein. He was named as crown prince shortly after his birth"

I believe, the word "ethically" should be "ethnically"

Lak100 (talk) 15:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Edit if possible.--88.104.137.223 (talk) 12:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Hadith

What about the hadith? http://www.cogwriter.com/news/prophecy/some-shiite-muslims-wonder-if-saudi-kings-death-means-the-imam-mahdi-must-now-arise/ http://www.askthesheikh.com/hadith-about-the-death-of-abdullah-of-hijaz-and-the-reappearance-of-imam-mahdi-are-they-authentic/ https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/12373.19.0.0/religion/islam/king-abdullahs-death-fulfills-end-time-prophecies-say-some-shiites http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/iran-saudi-arabia-king-abdullah-end-times.html http://blog.godreports.com/2015/01/death-of-king-abdullah-is-prophetic-trigger-for-attack-on-israel-return-of-islamic-messiah-irans-leadership-believes/ https://khalifa2021.wordpress.com/tag/king-abdullah-death/ http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/64462-imam-sadiqsas-saying-about-king-abdullah/ http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030281-king-abdullah-of-jordan-sufyani/ http://m.harunyahya.com/tr/Short%20videos%20-%20Don/100503/Errors-of-Irans-propaganda-film-about-the-coming-of-Hazrat-Mahdi-(pbuh)-The-coming-is-upon-us http://www.yanabi.com/index.php?/topic/430826-death-of-king-abdullah-one-of-the-signs-of-imam-mahdi-as/ --88.104.137.223 (talk) 12:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

ARchive

Can we get one please?--88.104.137.223 (talk) 12:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Abdullah II of Jordan/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article about King Abdullah II is extremley biased against this Arab leader and the entire Jordanian government. The article focuses on irrelavant rumors and controversies rather then giving a basic biography of his leadership and career.

Last edited at 05:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 06:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Bad Bias

I didn't get past the intro section at the top of the page before I stopped reading it for its obvious and unacceptable bias. Here's what stood out to me:

> Abdullah is widely popular both locally and internationally for having maintained Jordan's stability despite overwhelming odds.

He's widely popular internationally? Funny, given that I didn't know his name until right before I clicked on the link to his article. And he has supposedly maintained Jordan's stability against overwhelming odds, while neither the degree to which stability has been maintained, nor how bad the odds were, nor what he did to make that happen—none of those things is clarified. It's just vaguely worded praise.

Then, far worse:

> He is well-known for promoting peace, interfaith dialogue and the true message of Islam.

Again, no, he's not "well-known" for these various nice things. Most glaringly, though, while I'm not a practitioner of the Muslim faith, I'm sure that there are millions of people who would dispute that what this man claims is the "true message of Islam".

The author of this text might truly believe these things, but these statements are clearly very biased, very non-objective statements, and I think they very clearly violate Wikipedia's non-POV policies. And, since I didn't get past reading the schlock at the top of the page, I can only imagine what the people above me here are complaining about with bad bias in the body of the article. I think the POV sections should be rewritten from a more objective perspective. --98.213.54.240 (talk) 23:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

They should be. I got busy and couldn't continue editing the article. Here's the source used http://themuslim500.com/profile/king-abdullah-ii-jordan , it should be mentioned who made these claims. Suggestions on how to improve the text are obviously welcomed. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:58, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Chronology

@Chipmunkdavis: I am having trouble trying to find a suitable way to organize the content in the article. Any ideas?Makeandtoss (talk) 14:21, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Hey Makeandtoss, any specific issues? At a brief look, this looks somewhat similar to Elizabeth II, which is a well-watched FA (and as far as I can tell the only FA of a living Monarch). That suggests to me that this article is generally on the right path. My initial thoughts are whether it might be reasonable to split off information about Abdullah's more personal life and career from information about his initiatives and views. A bit complicated given his role in government, but may make this article cleaner. CMD (talk) 16:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I did take a look previously at Elizabeth II, but I would suppose its a bit different in this case given that Elizabeth as a monarch, has no constitutional powers. Her article focuses on stories, which are easy to order in a chronological way. But with Abdullah, its really tricky. For example in the "Early reign" section, I added content that he established KADDB in his first year, then since we mentioned the military, I went further and added information on how he modernized the army later on, and now we are talking 2000-2016 in the place where its supposed to focus on his first year (1999). Also, is it appropriate to add pictures of, for example, a wind farm he inaugurated? Or a refugee camp built during his reign? Or does the biography need to only contain his own pictures? (which are rare to find on wiki) Makeandtoss (talk) 20:40, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Indeed different, but seems the closest fit. Alternatively, see Suleiman the Magnificent. This to some extent has done what I suggested, which is splitting the timeline of events in his life from "Administrative Reforms" and "Cultural Achievements". Given Abdullah II is a modern monarch and we have a lot more information at hand, we can be much more specific than those rather generic titles. I would, for example, recommend creating a section on "Military reforms" to hold the information you address above. I would also suggest a section on "Religious actions" covering the interfaith dialogue information, guardianship over Al-Aqsa, and other relevant information, along with "Political and economic reforms". Further I think there should be a section on "Constitutional role" which covers the extent of his powers and responsibilities.

Images can be added to complement the text they appear with, and do not have to just be photos of him (although those will likely be most interesting to the reader). However, don't add images just because they're relevant, only add images if there is space (ie. they won't overlap with another image on the same side or sandwich text between them with an image on the other side). More details at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images. I see no issues with the images on the article at the moment. CMD (talk) 04:52, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

That was helpful, thanks. Makeandtoss (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

GA nomination

Nominated the article for GA. Should there be a section for "public perception and character", and how do I find sources for that? Makeandtoss (talk) 02:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis:, @Al Ameer son:, was wondering if any of you have the time and interest to review this GA, or perhaps even some constructive criticism? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:49, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: I'm taking a break from editing for the time being. I'd recommend you list this at the Copyeditor's Guild for prose and grammar improvement though. Good luck! --Al Ameer (talk) 22:11, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Already done that. Thanks Makeandtoss (talk) 12:03, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

The article is not balanced. His records in human right violations, his secret police brutal tortures and oppressive tactics, criticisms of his families' excessive privileges are not mentioned properly.Behzad.Modares (talk) 16:37, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

If you have any article that makes a connection between any of these and Abdullah, then feel free to add them. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:37, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Very humorous, the content about Russian roulette. I wonder what personal qualities one would need to understand that this story is a complete fabrication. The other content you added makes no connection between Abdullah and the infringements. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:11, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Really! Abdullah is the absolute dictator of the country! All this human right issues and oppressive measures has nothing to do with him!? Regarding the Russian roulette, the victims testified in EU parliaments and the UN human right representative raised this issue. Seriously we need to balance this article and we cannot whitewash a dictator! Otherwise, I have to put a neutrality flag on top of this article Behzad.Modares (talk) 19:48, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

You have obviously no understanding of the Jordanian politics. Please don't mention the Russian roulette story again cause its just plainly too dumb, anyone with a sane functioning brain can easily determine that adwnews.com is a fake news website. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:16, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The content other than the Russian roulette BS is unrelated. You can't just blame him for every wrongdoing, neither you can credit him for every achievement in the country. The content has to make a direct connection, ex: an accusation/appeal to Abdullah from a reliable source. Not from some propaganda website. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

In this article, you have credited him for every achievement of Jordan but every wrongdoing is sb else fault! How come he cannot be considered responsible for human rights violations of the security and armed forces while he is the chief commander of arm forces! Come on! Free world cannot buy this argument! This whitewashing justifications only make sense to people who use to live under dictatorship regimes!

And wait! The UN commissioner and EU parliament take the allegations seriously. Do not say it is laughable for everybody! Apparently they did not laugh! Behzad.Modares (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I did not credit him for every achievement, the sources did, reliable ones. The UN commissioner and the EU parliament DID NOT make any statements on a dubious Russian roulette nonsense. Its fake.

Here you go, I can create my own website and say "King Abdullah ordered the assassination of Wikipedia user Behzad.Modares, where the EU parliament was quick to foil the plot". Now did the EU parliament really do that? It just needs a TINY bit of logic. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:05, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

For the stability part there are tons of sources; [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. The most influential Muslim is themuslim500.com's rating, as seen by the wiki link produced. Please stop from destructive editing, note the WP:3RR restrictions. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:11, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

This information for themusim500 is irrelevant. This site has no authority to make such a bold statement. This site cannot represent the world opinion about the King Abdullah.Behzad.Modares (talk) 22:21, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Fake News! It seems that you watch Trump a lot these days!

Also, Please cooperate. I just came across this article by accident and was surprised how bad the article is! For now I just want to make some minor changes to change the disastrous tone of the article. If you refuse to cooperate, I have to go through the whole article, checking all references and remove all propaganda and whitewashing information and adding more materials to balance the article Behzad.Modares (talk) 22:28, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: I was going to do a copy edit, but I only made it through the lead. You have serious issues. I reverted the edit because I just wanted to mark the problems. You can review them here. But take heed of the tags for improvement. Pay attention to WP:WEASEL, WP:LEAD and especially WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Use phrases like "claims descendancy." —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 12:33, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Also, the article has some copyright violation issues: Check this out. I understand alot are just quotes, names of schools, organizations and titles. However, there are some serious violations to be rewritten and cleaned. —አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 13:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

@Janweh64: Thank you for the comments. But the descent part for example is recognized internationally, and isn't something like an unfounded claim. I will work on the tags and the copyright issues, I think they're probably just concentrated in the lead. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

He is the custodian of the Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem,[neutrality is disputed] a position his ancestors held for decades.[citation needed] Abdullah is the third longest-serving Arab leader.[citation needed]. Why is neutrality disputed? The citation needed tags for the content is present elsewhere in the article. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:58, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not care what you think or what the world thinks, only what you can prove with reliable sources. "Recognized internationally" by whom? I am not say delete it. I am saying clearly cite who recognizes him as descended from said people. Look at Elizabeth I of England, for example. Any claims that are exceptional are cited.

Those are exceptional and potentially controversial claims. According WP:LEAD, you have to cite them, even in the lead. Think about it. You are claiming that a Muslim man is custodian of a holy site in Jerusalem. You have to see how that can be controversial. I am not saying it does not belong. It just needs exceptional reliable sources to prove. What does "custodian" even mean? If that is the official term, the source needs to indicate it.—አቤል ዳዊት^?(Janweh64) (talk) 15:30, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I checked potential copyright violations. Fixed issues you mentioned and added sources to lead. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:41, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Information like the world praise him for that or he is number one in the world is WP:WEASEL and should be deleted. Behzad.Modares (talk) 16:40, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Fixed a few, if you would be kind enough to point out if I missed more. There's no proof that Khasawneh resigned due to "palace interventions", two scenarios are laid out in this article, none of which support what you claimed through an unaccessible online book. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Materials are supported by the source. Do not remove sourced materials. I understand your affection for your king but your affection has no place here. You cannot delete materials you do not like.Behzad.Modares (talk) 14:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Can you demonstrate that the source supports whatever you wrote? Or are you just going to keep on like this? Makeandtoss (talk) 21:00, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Sure, I will pick up the book and quote the book sometimes tonight or SaturdayBehzad.Modares (talk) 23:40, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

And how exactly do we know your quoting the book correctly? Makeandtoss (talk) 00:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Most sources do not agree with what you are trying to add. [6], [7], [8], [9]. Makeandtoss (talk) 00:32, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

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RfC, section: Regional turmoil (2014 - present)

There is no consensus to include this information. Cunard (talk) 23:47, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can we please get a general response by Wikipedia editors if it is worthy of mentioning the following anecdote in this article, in the section entitled: "Regional turmoil (2014–present)"?

On 7 August 2017, King Abdullah visited the Head of the Palestinian Authority, Abu Mazen, in Ramallah to discus regional issues, and the current stalemate. This visit marked the first for the king in five years.[1]

SOURCE:

• [1] Sawafta, Ali (7 August 2017). "Jordan's King Abdullah discusses holy site tensions in Ramallah". Reuters. Retrieved 7 August 2017. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Hopefully, we'll get some input as to its relevance or irrelevance.Davidbena (talk) 10:17, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

• Agree to adding this anecdote.Davidbena (talk) 10:18, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose adding this anecdote, largely because no relevance is demonstrated for what appears to be fairly trivial. Pincrete (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose I see nothing of significance. --Makeandtoss (talk) 14:43, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
• Include and expand - in particular his role regarding 2017 Temple Mount crisis and 2017 Amman incident which occurred prior to this visit with quite a bit of his involvement.Icewhiz (talk) 14:06, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose: Seem like minutiae trivia. What is its purpose in the article? Let's see in six months if someone remembers Abdullah's visit. I wouldn't count it. ImTheIP (talk) 18:49, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Include Yes, the text should be included. Damotclese (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose? - I mean... if that's literally all the context there is to be had there, then it doesn't seem to serve any real apparent purpose. If there's some additional context, like this meeting accomplished something significant, then it might belong. Otherwise, agree with the above that this is probably WP:TRIVIA. GMG^talk 17:41, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Changes

It seems that I have to explain my changes in more detail, which is fair.

1. Coronation is the act of placing a crown on the ruler's head. As far as I can tell, no such ceremony took place in Jordan. Colloquially, the word "coronation" is used in reference to any kind of investiture of a monarch, but that is confusing and far from accurate. Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and Elizabeth II had coronations, while Abdullah and Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands had investitures.
2. Rania is mentioned for the first time in the last sentence of Abdullah II of Jordan#Accession and coronation. She is introduced as "29-year-old Queen Rania". Who is that? Where did she come from? Is she his wife? His stepmother? His concubine? Did he marry her that day or at some point before the motorcade ride? We only get the answer to that at the last section of the prose.
3. It might not be wise to mention his children next to terrorist attacks, but it's also not wise to mention his appointment of his eldest son as heir apparent before mentioning that son's birth and parentage. Featured royalty articles, including Elizabeth II, normally mention the births of children in the running text, chronologically.
4. In general, this article would benefit from presenting information in a more chronological fashion. There is no point in mentioning a 1999 event (when Abdullah was 37) in Abdullah II of Jordan#Early life, which discusses the subject's childhood; or in mentioning the subject's 1993 marriage after 2018 events.
5. If the copyright of File:King abdullah II.jpg is dubious, the issue should be raised at the Commons. There are other photographs of King Abdullah and Prince Hussein together. The photograph of King Hussein and Princess Muna is irrelevant to Abdullah II of Jordan#Personal life; neither of the two is mentioned in that section.

Surtsicna (talk) 12:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

@Surtsicna:

1-Coronation's wiki article: "The term generally also refers not only to the physical crowning but to the whole ceremony wherein the act of crowning occurs, along with the presentation of other items of regalia, marking the formal investiture of a monarch with regal power." And the source uses the term too.

2-Fixed

3-Trust me I do like chronology. But the King is not a mere ceremonial figurehead like Elizabeth. Leaving his issue to a standalone section is a much better idea. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:12, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

"The whole ceremony wherein the act of crowning occurs." Did any crowning occur? I.e. was any crown placed on Abdullah's head? If not, then there was no actual coronation. I am not even aware of any physical crown used by the Jordanian monarch. As I said, the word coronation is colloquially used to denote all kinds of investitures. I do not see why we should use it to refer to anything other than actual coronations when we have clearer alternative words.
Laying out the information chronologically would not make Abdullah look like a ceremonial figurehead. Cleopatra, William the Conqueror, Frederick III, German Emperor and Barack Obama (all FAs) were not ceremonial figureheads, yet their marriages are not relegated to the last section. I do not feel strongly about the children, but at the very least Rania should be properly introduced before she is suddenly "the youngest queen in the world". Abdullah's marriage, taking place before his accession, raised some eyebrows, if I remember correctly, and is a noteworthy event in his life. She is not just a footnote in his life and reign. Surtsicna (talk) 17:00, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Removals of content

There had been some content removals without reason by anonymous and registered editors. The removals were related to information about the recent conflict of royal family members. Obviously, these editors want to avoid the mention of the conflict.--Casatamca (talk) 13:06, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

December 2022

@Malia Green: I couldn't find anything on page 271 of the cited source that would support the statement that you added. Could you please check the source again? M.Bitton (talk) 16:22, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

I got the source from the article of his great-great-grandfather Abdullah I of Jordan, a direct descendant of Muhammad in the 38th generation. The source refers to the great-great-great-grandfather of Abdullah II, Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz: Taking pride in his holy lineage as a descendant of Prophet Muhammad, King Hussein always looked for opportunities to enhance his religious legitimacy. Malia Green (talk) 14:26, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Abdullah II (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:49, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 07:58, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

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Abdullah II of Jordan → Abdullah II – This RM has shown that this article is the primary topic for Abdullah II and should be moved accordingly. Interstellarity (talk) 11:56, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:NCROY. estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:40, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:NCROY—blindlynx 14:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose As a living king, his page will obviously get more views. However, this move would not be helpful, considering the fact that there are multiple other monarchs with the same regnal name. And, since he's only ruling over one state, we have no solid excuse to drop the territorial designation. Keivan.f^Talk 00:41, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per Keivan.f's argument. Векочел (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Abdullah bin Hussein" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Abdullah bin Hussein has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 16 § Abdullah bin Hussein until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Direct descendant of Muhammad? We all are!

this is such a nonsense information. If you go 41 generations back every Arab and every European is a direct descendant. In that generation you have 2^41=2199023255552 ancestors. It is plain mathematics that even today's Israelis are direct descendants of Prophet Muhammad. 95.90.60.25 (talk) 10:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)