Talk:Bento

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Taiwan

I think it should be mentioned that Taiwan has adopted ( from japanese colonial times ) the bento, 便當 in Chinese.

it is mentioned in the article. And please sign your posts Wenzi 21:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be mentioned that Taiwan has adopted ( from japanese colonial times ) the bento, 便當 in Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.166.249 (talk) 06:04, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

"Obentos"

I have suggested the content currently found in Obentos be moved here. It appears that the original contributer of the "Obentos" article did not realize the correct spelling of the word, as the "o" is just a honorific, and the Japanese do not add a letter "s" to denote plurality. -- 63.226.38.196 04:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with merging the content, not based on Japanese grammar (of which I know -0-), but based on that it's just a quote from an academic paper. Maybe add the quote to Bento and turn Obentos into a redirect to Bento. Heck, if no one else does this soon (and if no one objects soon), I'll do it myself. Archivizt 01:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Please, go right ahead. Thanks, -- Argon233 ^T C U _@ ¶ ∠  23:53, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree as well. Perhaps, though, make a subsection of the bento that points out the currently so-called "obento" and describes it there.

I disagree. The practice of giving obento to Japanese nursury-school childrien, and the construction of the obento, bento given to school children, is very specific. The article on obento should be expanded, however. The obento is a device recommended by the Japanese Ministry of Education as a way to not only ease the childs enculturation into cooperative Japanese society, but its preparation by the mother is also a way to judge how her parenting persribes to encultured gender norms. It is though in Japanese society that the mothers role is just as important as the school child's in his/her education. To the state it is a sign as to how far the child is likely to go in their education career. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.146.169.251 (talk • contribs) 2006-04-27 05:11:40.

To clarify this subject a little, the word 'bento' and 'obento' in Japanese refers to exactly same object. The "o" is just a honorific prefix used in polite speech. Although the concept is a little different, you might consider the difference between 'bento' and 'obento' to be similar the way there are alternate spellings of the same word in English. Likewise the Japanese language does not add a letter "s" at the end of words to denote plurality of objects, as we commonly do in English.

In the end the word "obentos" is a improper Anglicization of a basic Japanese word, and obento and bento are the same thing. There is no need for seperate articles for "alternate spelling" of the same word, so they should be merged. -- Argon233 ^T C _@ ¶  07:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I think they should not be merged as they are completly differemt. (the bento artical refers to what bento is and the obentos articaltalks about a way to perpare bento.) 67.5.115.38 17:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I've performed the merge; I do know enough Japanese to know how o- is used. (Mmmm, ōbentō.) Although I've left out such shiny details as "Children are expected to eat these meals in their entirity [sic]; this is a way to teach them about Japanese culture and discipline." (I really want to see that paper; I have a hard time taking anything with a name like "The Lunchbox as Ideological State Apparatus" seriously.)  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 02:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Converting Yen

STOP trying to convert Yen to US Dollars by simply dividing the number by 100 (e.g. "$10 bento"). This is totally inaccurate. Either accurately convert the rate, changing the page daily or weekly to reflect the always-changing conversion rate, or leave the amount in Yen.

I wouldn't mind seeing a conversion, although it wouldn't have to be exact. Something like "1000 yen (10$ as of MM/DD/YY)" or something similar. Although there are easy sites to convert, it's a pain to have to go to them just to find that out. --StarChaser Tyger 07:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, to clarify, what I believe the poster above you was referring to wasn't just that the conversion rate changes everyday therefore making one day's conversion rate not "exact" the next day, but also the common misconception (based either on a skewed but apparently surprisingly common misunderstanding of currency conversion, or maybe just the use of decimals in US currency) that the yen is basically equivalent to one cent in US currency. It's come close to that, especially in the 1990's, when you had occasional average monthly exchange rates of for instance, 102.08 yen per US dollar (December 1999), or in mid-late 1995, when it actually hit 98.18 and then 101.90 as monthly averages for September and October; but the truth is, it's all over the place, and it increasingly rarely comes so conveniently close as that. In fact, even when the yen had a "fixed value" back after WWII (up until the early 1970's), it was 360 yen per dollar, more like 3.6 cents, in other words, than one cent; even back in June, 2007, the closest to today's date that the Japanese yen article actually covers for conversion rates, the average exchange rate was 122.67 yen per US dollar - even if we round up or down to one decimal, that puts us at 1.2 or 1.3 cents per yen, not just one; and if you look at the chart, this year had a mostly steady upward climb heading up to June, too. No matter how you slice it, the chances of that bento costing exactly US$10 with conversion are really, really low, given how much the yen swings on a daily or even monthly basis. Anybody who had checked either a converter or the Japanese yen article (which, conveniently enough, actually links to converters itself) before adding the "converted" value would known this; I found it all out in a matter of minutes. So either someone's rounding (which is a bad practice for an encyclopedia, if you're not going to note that it's rounded and when you got your "rounded" figure), or they're just making it up pretty much out of thin air or a bad misunderstanding of how international currency conversion works and possibly additional misunderstanding of the yen's conversion history in regards to the US dollar.

I've actually seen people try to "convert" yen to USD this "one-yen-to-a-cent" way once in a while before myself, and I'm somewhat baffled as to why, other than presumably it just being easier than actual currency conversion, which takes actually plugging the figures into a converter (available in countless places online for free, and easily found through Google or any other decent search engine, even found through our own article on the currency). Really, given how much it changes month to month, it makes much more sense to just list what the original cost at the time, and link to the Japanese yen article. Runa27 21:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

So, just to be clear, you're preaching on currency conversion and you think 100 / 360 is 3.6? Seriously dude? 便當. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.166.249 (talk) 06:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Shokado Bento

I think this should definitely be merged with the main Bento article, unless someone has a whole lot more to say about it. It's really interesting, and something I'd want to know just reading about bento in general. Archivizt 01:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll second you on this suggestion - I like your idea. It seems you now have two merge tasks on your "plate". :-) -- Argon233 ^T C U _@ ¶ ∠  23:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

It strikes me as something that could possiblely use its own page, but for the time being certainly should be merged. Hopefully in the future there will be enough information to unmerge it though.--SeizureDog 23:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It should be merged becase there is only one line of text in Shokado Bento 67.5.115.38 17:48, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Considering that fact, the article should even be deleted. The ThinkPad detail can be included in a Trivia section. Candamir 21:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this should be merged as when I think about Bento, I think not only about the food in a bento box, but the box itself. These are not two separate topics but two parts of the same topic.

Agreed with comment above. I think of the actual bento lunchboxes as much as the meals prepared for them. Alex H. 21:10, August 7 2006

I've gone ahead and merged them. I'm still new around, so I'm not totally sure I redirected everything right. If someone could check that would make me a happy panda. --SidiLemine 13:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

ThinkPad?

I find the claim that the "traditional black-lacquered Japanese bento box inspired IBM's ThinkPad design" completely ludicrous and unbelievable. Unless someone can come up with some concrete support for this (e.g. an IBM spokesman saying as much), it should be deleted. Rocinante9x 20:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,55714,00.html

Will this work? It's an article at Wired.com that states that David Hill, director of design for IBM's personal computer division, said that the ThinkPad was inspired by the bento box. I think the director of design for IBM's personal computer division makes a pretty good spokesperson.

This link may also be helpful:

http://www.lenovoblogs.com/design/design-theory/2006/10/17/the-bento-box/ (Lenovo is the company that has been producing the ThinkPad since 2005, I believe)

Also, check the Wikipedia article about the ThinkPad. It makes the same claim about the bento box being the inspiration for the ThinkPad and includes... get this... a source! Couldn't that source be incorporated here as well?

Um, O.k.... Wouldn't it have been better to put that info into the article, rather than roasting me with it here? Rocinante9x 13:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Dude, calm down. It's only some guy on Wikipedia, and he found sources like you asked - both of which he may or may not actually, in fact, be sure could be added (I'm not sure about the company blog myself, but Wired.com is generally considered a reliable source on this kind of thing, last I checked). Please WP:Assume good faith instead of bothering to snipe back, it's better for your blood pressure and makes you look like a very cool person, I guarantee it. ;) Runa27 21:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Finding sources does not constitute "Roasting" someone. I thought his reply was very subdued considering how emotionally charged your post was. "completely ludicrous and unbelievable" are pretty strong words for you to have chosen for such a silly matter.64.230.43.189 (talk) 01:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Though the information about the IBM Thinkpad might be correct, it should be put in a trivia section rather than the section that classifies bento. what does a cultural reference have to do with types of bento??? this reeks of product placement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.233.51.113 (talk) 10:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia frowns on trivia sections, preferring instead for the information to integrated with the rest of the article. It is a quick mention, and I don't know where else it could go. --Imroy (talk) 11:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

the two kanji for bento "弁当" seems to be ateji. Does anyone know what the presumably indigenous word "bento" means? what is its etymology?

便当 (the Chinese word for bento box) also means "convenient" in mainland Mandarin. I don't think this meaning a loanword from Japanese because you can take the word apart in Chinese: 当 is a character that can be attached to some other characters to make it an adverb/action-describing adjective (e.g. 妥当、顺当、恰当), 便 means "convenient" or "ease". Problem is that 弁 is not a shinjitai of 便。 --Voidvector 05:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The argument here is meaningless because 弁当 is not recognized as ateji by the Japanese. No matter what meaning "弁当" originally had, I'd say that looking the origin of 弁当 in 便当 doesn't make sense. It is no doubt that "便当" is a type of loanword inspired by Japanese bentō of which habit/notion was imported to China and Taiwan from Japan. Hrkoew 16:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

references

Who the hell wrote "This article or section does not cite its references or sources. You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations."? Live in Japan and this is common sense. Do we need a cite to state that the US is in N. America?!?!?!?!?!

You don't seem to understand the purpose of that tag or references in general. No, you don't have to have a reference that states the US is in North America. However, the history section could use a LOT of references to verify the facts that are presented there. References aren't used to back up common knowledge, they're used to back up obscure facts or things that need proof to be verifiable. Most people don't know the history behind bentos and most people don't want to just take someone else's word that the section is 100% accurate and full of history fact. This is why references are used. In general, every Wikipedia article should have numerous references; this one currently has none, which is why the tag is there. --pIrish 22:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why is the tag for the whole article? There is nothing disputable in the lede, for example. I've moved the tag to the history section per your comments. --C S (talk) 23:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I came across this article while cleaning up under-referenced articles. I added a few references to the Bento history section, but I cannot find anything (in English) that gives a detailed history of the Bento. Does anyone (the orignal author perhaps) have any sources that can back up the history in this article?? Tcxspears (talk) 19:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Eh, wha?

This sentence is just above the 'Other' section: "Corrosion of metal bento boxes by the acid of umeboshi was used to be popular in Japan, and eventually makes a hole in the middle of the lid." Could someone untangle it? I would, but I don't know what it's trying to say... --StarChaser Tyger 07:34, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what it means either, but it was changed by User:Jjok here. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 15:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

What happened to the external links

I was utalizing the links yesterday and today they were gone!!! --24.109.190.76 22:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

They were removed because they violated the policies set forth by this page. They consisted of either blogs, commercial sites intended to sell products, or were just generic linkspam put there to garner traffic to the site. Those sites were replaced by a link to photos on Flickr because that gives people the ability to look at photos of bento boxes if they want to, but it doesn't break policy. Flickr is also extremely neutral because everybody shares it. Instead of choosing five blogs out of thousands based on subjective or superficial criteria, you can have one site (where most of the blogs host their pictures anyway) that does not favor one person's photos over another.

Please remember that Wikipedia is not a linkfarm. Sites should not be included just because they are about the topic. This is an encyclopedia. Not a link directory. Go to Google for that. The general principle among Wikipedia editors is to have as few links as possible, though most would prefer if there were none at all and just have in-text citations to outside sources make up for the lack of external links. Less is more. Articles are of much higher quality if they aren't cluttered with links. This article would never have made it to good article status if those links were to remain. --74.137.227.117 02:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

How to make bentō

Starting with a 4:3:2:1 ratio as a traditional style is a bit misleading. Bentō can take any form; it just has an orientation of having many kinds of side dish and enough amount of rice, which reflects the Japanese dietary habit and a sense of joy. So it's true that rice accounts for about a half and that rice usually comes with a small amount of pickles. However, it should be stressed that the ratio is just an example for an explanatory purpose. (This is how the Japanese wiki article for bentō was written.) Also, what is "traditional?" In the past, hinomaru bentō and onigiri bentō, both of which are largely made of rice, were pretty common. For a quick fix, the word "typical" is more appropriate than "traditional." Hrkoew 15:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

How to make bentō - wasabi

Is this a common practice?

If sushi is a part of the bento, it should be prepared with more wasabi than normal.

As wasabi's effect for food presevation is strong, I personally haven't heard of increasing the amount of wasabi. Some smart people put a small amount of wasabi inside the bentō box when the bentō is NOT sushi, though. Also, since rice vinegar is used for sushi, sushi is by nature a preservative food. Indeed, there are many kinds of sushi which wasabi is not used for.Hrkoew 16:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

PS: A more common measures to prevent food poisoning is to make bentō taste a little richer by adding extra ingredients such as salt, soy source and sugar, or by includiing sunomono, vinegared dish. Extra ingredients also keep bentō tasty even when the bentō gets cold.Hrkoew 17:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

After the above comments, the description concerning the minor point was deleted aggressively along with many other good and true descriptions. I think I should recover them soon. Hrkoew (talk) 07:03, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

Needs etymology; Wiktionary says the first character means "Zhou dynasty cap," which doesn't make any sense. Badagnani (talk) 02:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Dokaben's protagonist

Concerning this sentence: "Dokaben (ドカベン) is a baseball manga of which the title came from the protagonist, Taro Yamada's huge bento box (dokaben)." The sentence seems to be saying that the manga's protagonist is a bento box. Is that correct? Dcwaterboy (talk) 20:41, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Move without discussion

{{movereq|Bento}}

I have removed the move request tag as the move discussion is moot at the moment. The discussion can continue, however, until a consensus has been reached on where this article should be. I also struck the strong oppose by The Ogre as he's changed it to mild oppose below. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Bento (takeout) → Bento — This page was moved without discussion, and is surely the most common and sought use of the term. I propose it be moved back, submitting to wp:requested moves. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 21:30, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - I strongly disagree! Bento is now a redirect to Bento (disambiguation), since there are a great number of things called Bento and also people (see Bento (name)). Why should a japanese word for takeout food be the first entry in a wikisearch? The Ogre (talk) 21:40, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

How can you say that this is "the most common and sought use of the term" - if you google Bento most of the results do not refer to the Japanese takeout. The Ogre (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I just did, half on the first page alone did. http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=bento&aq=1&oq=bent Thank you for proving my point! Not surprisingly, nobody named Bento showed up on that first page. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 00:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Yea... you're right, I did not search through English language Google. My mistake! The Ogre (talk) 13:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• I oppose as well: 1) non-primary and 2) misspelling. Just move it to Bentō to solve the issue. 61.121.241.17 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:23, 1 February 2010 (UTC).

That's not a solution. People aren't going to be searching for "Bentō," they're going to be searching for "Bento" and "Bento" would still need to be redirected somewhere. Further, it's really advised again using symbols in the article title because it overly complicates the URL. "Bento" either needs to go here or a disambiguation page. --13² 01:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• Meh, I don't really care. I will mention two things though. First, "takeout" is spelled wrong. It should be "take-out" with a hyphen. Second, the take-out version is an extremely limited scope. Bento encompasses more than that. If the disambiguation page has to stay, I think this page should be "Bento (food)" to capture more uses. --13² 01:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it can be spelled both ways in English, and you're right, it was sloppy renaming on The Ogre's part. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but I'm going with the article here: take-out. We should be consistent across Wikipedia. Now that it's been moved back, can this please be discussed so we can come to a consensus? --13² 03:04, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

In my defense I just spelled it as it appears in the article's intro line ("is a single-portion takeout..."). The Ogre (talk) 13:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support bento for the lunch box and bento (disambiguation) for the dab page. Few of the entries on bento (disambiguation) are unqualifiedly called "bento" and the lunch box is the primary meaning. Furthermore, bentos are not always take(-)out. A move to bentō is fine but bento should redirect there. — AjaxSmack 03:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment. The article has already been moved back to the undisambiguated version, but a discussion on whether or not this is the primary topic may still be productive. Ucucha 05:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support

  See the dictionaries below;

  • Dictionary.com (Random House Dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary)
  • The free dictionary (The American Heritage, Collins English Dictionary)

  ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 05:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

• In fact, I'm reverting my strong oposition to a mild oposition (even if just for the record). I still have doubts if this should be the primary topic. But then again I may be biased to the fact that "Bento" is a word in my native language meaning "Holly" or "Benedict". Anyhow I do not believe there will be any confusion with people (already placed at Bento (name)), so the question should be if some other meaning may also deserve at least equal status. In any case, if the present solution remains, it's fine by me. Cheers! The Ogre (talk) 13:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
• Only very tenuously an English word; most people using it in English will be aware that it is Japanese, where it has four moras and thus should be bentō. Move to bentō and point to it. The additional complication in the URL, mentioned above, is trivial. Yes, the place where I eat most often serves bentō, which people eat at the counter just as they eat meals served in other ways at the same counter. -- Hoary (talk) 06:27, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree with Hoary. The Ogre (talk) 11:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

aisaibento?

Should the first paragraph mention the term "aisaibento" (loving wife bento)? I remembered that term being used but could not remember the Japanese translation, which I found on a blog as 愛妻弁当 - that's probably not citable. --Srl (talk) 18:42, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Nope, the blog is not citable. You'll need to find a reliable source to include it. Thanks! --13² 20:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Bento in Art?

There seems to be an emerging trend of making bento into art, see [[1]] [[2]] [[3]]
Does this warrant a place in the article (the idea, not necessarily the blog links)?
Yakatz (talk) 03:08, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much anything from a blog is considered unreliable. Anything that is included should also be accompanied by a reliable source. I'm familiar with this and active in various communities, but I have a lot of doubts about coming up with anything that would pass as the vast majority is community/blog based. --13² 04:27, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Animage has a column on it every month which shows one or two different anime characters done as a bento. The column has been running for a few years now. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Can you link to specific articles? Thanks! --13² 04:35, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

No, as Animage doesn't put their articles online. Sorry. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:56, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bento/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The article rambles and is poorly cited if at all.

Last edited at 04:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Taiwanese Mandarin Name

The article currently states that "便當" was chosen because of the meaning of "convenience pack", but this is a bit suspicious as while "便" does means "easy" (q.v. "方便"), "當" doesn't carry that meaning. "便當" is also identical in sound to Mandarin rendering of "弁当". I'm not aware of any sources that discuss the origin of the term in Taiwan, and my Mandarin reading skills are probably not up to the task. For the moment, I am simply going to remove the "convenience pack" mention. siafu (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Bento and the ideological state apparatus

Is this section really relevant? The entire subsection only has 1 source, and doesn't seem to be a widely supported viewpoint.

Dietcoke3.14 (talk) 20:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bento (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 20 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Issues centre around the proposed title being potentially tautologous and lacking conciseness. Also the point about common-name appears to have been brought in to question by additional evidence. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:46, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

---

Bento → Bento box – We discussed this in Talk:Bento (disambiguation)#Requested move 9 August 2024 recently - it appears that in English-language usage, the phrase "bento box" is actually very popular in sources, and unambiguously identifies what seems to be more commonly known as just "bento" in Japanese usage.

The term bento box already redirects here since forever, so this change would be more of a technicality, but I'm bringing it up for discussion because that would follow the previous process more properly.

So, per WP:AT, this change would appear to improve recognizability, naturalness, precision. It would obviously reduce concision a bit, but it seems bearable. I'm not sure about consistency, what would be a comparable example - perhaps how we use take-out instead of to go?

This move would facilitate a measurement related to the previous discussion - it appears that the term "Bento" (uppercase) is a fair bit historically and presently ambiguous, while "bento" (lowercase) is less so, but it's not clear to what extent this is so - if we complete this move, that would become easier to measure.

TIA. -- Joy (talk) 09:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Are you assuming Bento would not be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Bento box if this article is moved there? As pointed out before at Talk:Bento (disambiguation)#Requested move 9 August 2024, readers are more than 100× more likely to read the article about the meal than the article about the name. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:16, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  No, like I said before, I would just swap the two, keeping a redirect from bento to bento box. --Joy (talk) 17:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

  I wonder how we can measure usage. "Bento box" might refer to the box itself rather than the type of meal, and when I use Google with "bento", it really tries to sell me boxes (even if I don't include "box" in the search). Bing is a bit less pushy. The one idea I've had so far is to compare Ngrams for "bento box lunch", "bento lunch", and "bento lunch box". The result favors "bento lunch", as shown here. Of course it's always going to find more instances of "bento lunch" than "bento lunch box", but I think we should mentally subtract the latter from the former, and it still shows a larger amount of "bento lunch" than "bento box lunch". And it will always find more "bento" than "bento box" (as here). I looked for "bento for lunch", and "bento box for lunch", but the Ngram tool didn't find either of those strings. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

  One thing you can do with Google Books Ngrams is add wildcards to search terms, and then we get a semblance of a top list of phrases with those terms, like this. That seems to show that bento box references, in singular and plural, are consistently the most common ones in that time period.

  Since we've covered both the box and the meal in the same article and lead section so far, it should be possible to rephrase it in a reasonable way regardless of the change in the heading. --Joy (talk) 07:42, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks; it's good to keep in mind, as you noted, that the article covers both the box and the meal in the same article. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

  Footnote to my prior comment. FWIW, I figured out how to get Google's Ngram viewer to subtract "bento lunch box" from "bento lunch" when comparing that to "bento box lunch". Here is the comparison. It seems to confirm that "bento" is frequently used without "box" in English when referring to a meal – people seem to refer to a "bento lunch" more than they refer to a "bento box lunch" in English. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:52, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah. When it's still consistently dwarfed by the amount of references to bento and bento box [4] it's hard to tell how relevant that is. Bento lunch doesn't exist as a redirect right now - bento and bento box have existed since 2002 and 2006, resp. We can't judge all that much by editor behavior either, but it seems at least somewhat indicative that it took the community four years to notice one was missing, but not even two decades for the former derivation. --Joy (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not suggesting that the subject is known as "bento lunch"; I'm just trying to think of brief strings of words for an Ngram search that might identify whether people typically use "bento" by itself or couple it with "box". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. I suppose this is WP:NATDIS. On the other hand, it repeats something inherent in the first word. This is often seen when using words of Japanese origin, resulting in idiosyncratic phrases like "samurai warrior", "haiku poem", "sumo wrestling", "kabuki play", but we don't put the articles at those titles. On the other hand, we do use "Arakawa River" (="Ara River River"), etc. Dekimasuよ! 05:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Do these terms have other significant unrelated meanings, though? Arakawa is actually disambiguated, there isn't a primary redirect to the river there. --Joy (talk) 16:14, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Besides, relaying the exact meaning of the foreign words is not usually a priority over other article title criteria. Per WP:UE, In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. --Joy (talk) 16:50, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  "Bento" is in both of my English-language dictionaries (US and UK), like all the other examples I mentioned above. It's in the Oxford English Dictionary as an English word as well: bento. In other words, the most common English-language usage is likely to be "bento" and the meaning of the loanword is recognized in English. The previous discussion found consensus against the idea that the primary topic for "Bento" is sufficiently ambiguous that the disambiguation page should be moved, so the situation appears to be the same here as the others in terms of whether there are other signficant unrelated meanings. Dekimasuよ! 07:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, but if we're looking at the OED, let's look at the same context in there:

  • bento: About 0.02 occurrences per million words in modern written English
  • samurai: About 1 occurrence per million words in modern written English
  • haiku: About 0.5 occurrences per million words in modern written English
  • sumo: About 0.2 occurrences per million words in modern written English
  • kabuki: About 0.4 occurrences per million words in modern written English

  So bento would be 10, 20, 25, or 50 times less common than these - a difference of at least an order of magnitude doesn't exactly instill confidence that it's common at all, or that the meaning is recognized beyond being the first word of the comparatively more common phrase bento box (yet generally not particularly common either).

  There's also an obvious argument against WP:NOTDICT - a dictionary will not typically have many topics that encyclopedias cover in its scope, so it's inherently not determinative for the purposes of organizing encyclopedia navigation. --Joy (talk) 14:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't seen evidence that "bento box" is more common than "bento". My reply was in reference to the fact that WP:UE is not relevant here because "bento" alone (like "sumo" and the other cases I mentioned) is already English. By the way, "bento" is among the top 35% of words in the OED by usage. OED says "words which occur between 0.01 and 0.1 times per million words in typical modern English usage... are not commonly found in general text types like novels and newspapers, but at the same time they are not overly opaque or obscure." [5] I'm not sure what to do with the reference to WP:NOTDICT either, as it has already been reaffirmed that this is the primary topic for Bento among our current encyclopedia topics. Dekimasuよ! 01:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

  I posted evidence that 'bento box' is the most common application of 'bento' above, maybe you missed in the subthread Google Books Ngrams for various phrases including the word bento.

  With regard to OED's commonness, we should note that their definition of Band 3 also includes: Nouns include ebullition and merengue, and examples of adjectives are amortizable, prelapsarian, contumacious, agglutinative, quantized, argentiferous. In addition, adjectives include a marked number of very colloquial words, e.g. cutesy, dirt-cheap, teensy, badass, crackers. Let's just say that their definition of overly opaque or obscure might vary from one example to another with regard to the average English reader. :)

  My reference to the dictionary policy is again just to point out how OED being a dictionary, and Wikipedia not being one, is necessarily informing each of their ways of organizing information and navigation. For example, it's safe to say that the OED is hardly going to include any information on the foreign human name Bento if its inclusion of the English name "Benedict" leads to[6] "benedict", adj. & n. A newly married man; esp. an apparently confirmed bachelor who marries. and they say the status is OED is undergoing a continuous programme of revision to modernize and improve definitions. This entry has not yet been fully revised. (Amusingy, even that word is listed as 0.02 occurrences per million words in modern written English.)

  --Joy (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. In addition to being more concise, it appears that "bento" is much more commonly used on its own than the longer "bento box". From an ngram, we can see that by latest figures "bento" is around 7.5× more used than "bento box", i.e. way more than the 2× figure that would indicate equality between the shorter and longer terms.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

post-closed-RM

@FOARP, you closed the above discussion 25 minutes after @Amakuru posted the last comment. Talk about champing at the bit :D

The issue with the last comment is that it only looked at singular and not plural, so if we look at that: bento,bentos,bento box,bento boxes we can actually see about 88 vs 33, which is actually just 2.66x.

And in turn if we look at the case-insensitive version of the same the graph paints a completely different picture, where the comparison between the 1847 peak of 16 and 2022 peak of 26, and the plural bentos seems to have a whole life of its own inbetween, indicating there may well be noise inside the "bento" and "bentos" datasets (so that previous 2.66x may well be lower). We can also try to add common noun prefixes like "a" or "the" to try to look for definitions, like this and we still get only the 'box' as visible in the graph, while standalone use is far behind. --Joy (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Joy, thanks for responding. Discussions can be closed at any point after the 7 day period has elapsed. Given that only two actual !votes had been made (and an essentially neutral comment), both of which were oppose !votes, there was no obvious point in allowing the discussion to run further. The common name issue appears to be disputed with no consensus that Bento Box is the common name, the tautology and conciseness issues were clear. You are welcome to collect further evidence and, after a decent period has elapsed, try again taking in to account the objections. FOARP (talk) 07:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, I beg to differ. The tautology in Japanese doesn't have to matter in English, and in fact we're not seeing much proof that reliable sources are particularly moving away from it because it'd be a tautology. We have one data point of a dictionary, which we've examined a bit and taking all that in mind I still don't see how it would be determinative.

The issue with consciseness is obvious enough, but if we're considering that part of the article title criteria, the others can't be disregarded, either. Yet, there was no time to say such a basic counter.

Just because we use the term !vote that doesn't mean we're not actually judging things as a vote sometimes - please in the future remember to apply the spirit of WP:CONS - there's not much reason not to allow a consensus-building discussion to take its course. If we were descending into madness here, starting to flame each other - fine, put an end to it; but this was not such a case. --Joy (talk) 09:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

A consensus had formed: not to move. Once that was the case, no need for further discussion. FOARP (talk) 20:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)