Talk:Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece

Comments

Here it starts again - a major POV fork. Just don't strat complaining when we add other info to the article. Oh, and your first two sources come from RoM so I'll be adding some BG ones as well. And no more "This is an article about ethnic Macedonians, go and create one for Bulgarians" - I'm tired of your constant POV forking. Since the topic is one, there should be only one article. --Laveol ^T 10:23, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Why exactly you renamed Child refugees of the Greek Civil War and deleted all content? In you POV theories all people who left Greece after our Civil War were not Greeks? Kapnisma ? 12:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

And of course our friend forgot, or doesn't know all these sources,

• C. M. Woodhouse, Modern Greece, Faber and Faber, 1991, 1992, pp. 259.
• Lars Barentzen, "The'Paidomazoma' and the Queen's Camps,", 135-136
• Lars Barentzen, The'Paidomazoma' and the Queen's Camps,, 130
• Myrsiades, Cultural Representation in Historical Resistance, 333
• Kenneth Spencer, "Greek Children," The New Statesman and Nation 39 (Jan. 14, 1950): 31-32.
• KKE, official Documents v6 1946-1949, pg474-476
• Richard Clogg, A Concise History of Greece, Cambridge University Press, 1992, p. 141.

NOT to mention several United Nations General Assembly resolutions on this particular matter... But I am not going to participate in nationalistic edit wars regarding obvious POV forks, I have already informed an admin and I going to wait for his interference. Kapnisma ? 13:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"Exodus of ethnic Macedonians"? Oh dear... This is SO AfD material (and not your first PMK)--   Avg    13:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Just started cleaning this up... I got frustrated from the first paragraph. This is a total mess and rightly deserves an AfD. Please PMK at least read a basic introduction on who was who in the Greek Civil war. ELAS was the military wing of EAM, not EDES.--   Avg    02:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Alright i mus admit the article needs cleaning up and i am happy to do that. If i have mixed up any ELAS/EAM it is an honest mistake on my part. I will be more than happy to fix it up.

Also, i was not complaining @ laveol Also, Exodus is not that pompous: see, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exodus all it means a going out; a departure or emigration, usually of a large number of people: the summer exodus to the country and shore. I did not mean the word Expulsion which is way more dramatic. NOT to mention several United Nations General Assembly resolutions on this particular matter... also there are also UN recomendations calling for the repatriation of the child refugees but lets not even start there.

Point 5: Why exactly you renamed Child refugees of the Greek Civil War and deleted all content? In you POV theories all people who left Greece after our Civil War were not Greeks? Kapnisma ? 12:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

And of course our friend forgot, or doesn't know all these sources,

• C. M. Woodhouse, Modern Greece, Faber and Faber, 1991, 1992, pp. 259.
• Lars Barentzen, "The Paidomazoma and the Queen's Camps,", 135-136
• Lars Barentzen, Th Paidomazoma and the Queen's Camps,, 130
• Myrsiades, Cultural Representation in Historical Resistance, 333
• Kenneth Spencer, "Greek Children," The New Statesman and Nation 39 (Jan. 14, 1950): 31-32.
• KKE, official Documents v6 1946-1949, pg474-476
• Richard Clogg, A Concise History of Greece, Cambridge University Press, 1992, p. 141.

NOT to mention several United Nations General Assembly resolutions on this particular matter... But I am not going to participate in nationalistic edit wars regarding obvious POV forks, I have already informed an admin and I going to wait for his interference.

I am not trying to say that all people who left Greece were not Greeks, that is a lie, Most were Greeks. I was wishing to create an article about these people who left Greece during the 1940's for some reason or another. This article was to focus on the Ethnic Macedonians who left Greece, many of whom now reside in ROM, Australia, Canada, US and the rest of Eastern Europe. The people who call themselves Aegean Macedonians. It actually isnt that POV but rather needs some cleanign up. PMK1 (talk) 04:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

What you're continuously doing though is that you're presenting facts and figures that refer to all people who left Greece after the Civil War as representing only the ethnic Macedonians. This is why this article is a WP:POVFORK. Of course there were no 100,000 ethnic Macedonians who left Greece and no 30,000 or so ethnic Macedonian children, since this was the figure of ALL people and children who left Greece for the Communist Bloc countries at that time. And this is consistent with your other POV Fork creation, the Aegean Macedonians article, because most of the material there applies to Slavophones in Greece and not to ethnic Macedonians. Of course I very well know this is not only your own view, but it is rather a state-sponsored view.--   Avg    15:05, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Please end with the whole "Slavophones" idea when you clearly know that i am talking about the Ethnic Macedonians and Aegean Macedonians. How can these people really be called Slavophones when in the diaspora they identify as Ethnic Macedonians. It has been shown that in the countries to where these people were exiled these people identified as Ethnic Macedonians. Also many of these "Slavophones" claim that they are "greek by genus" and many returned to greece following the amnesty offered to all those people who were "greek by genus" excluding those people who were not "greek by genus". Also my veiw that there was an exodus is not irredentist or exclusive it is actually a common veiw held many intellectuals as my various sources have shown. Also i have limited my "Macedonian" sources to very few if any to remove the POV factor which is claimed so often here on wikipedia. PMK1 (talk) 04:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how I could ask a more precise question, but can you offer third party sources regarding the post Civil War events that specifically refer to "ethnic Macedonians" and not "refugees" or "Slavophones" or "Greeks"? Regarding the exclusion of people not "Greek by genus" I agree this was the phrasing, however do you have any document regarding how many people are really affected by this? There has never been any specific number provided by FYROM, even when Greek officials have asked for it, because FYROM officials know the numbers do not add up. At most a couple hundred people have been denied entry and the actual reason is not this law we're talking about, but another law (20.1.c of the Nationality Code) that says they act in an "incompatible manner with the Greek interests", since these are the very people that are expressing all these ridiculous irredentist claims.--   Avg    16:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

How does not being Greek "by genus" imply that one is an "ethnic Macedonian"? That is a logical fallacy if there ever was one. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 16:24, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Yawn. Another "Makedonskians as victims" POV-fork brought to you by p m kocovski. I like how it repeats the same stuff over and over. Somebody have the decency to put it up for AfD because I don't have the time/can't be bothered to do it myself. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoah, too many issues. If you like i will deal with them under seperate headings. Also How does not being Greek "by genus" imply that one is an "ethnic Macedonian"? if i have explicitly said that all non greeks by genus are ethnic macedonians, the information should be changed of course, we all know that that is wrong. They could be aromanians, albanians or turks. etc. Regarding the people denied entry to greece for acting contrary to greek interests, i was not talking about those people who have been "blacklisted". I was talking about people who had attempted entry even from america and canada and australia, without having to work against greece. Another "Makedonskians as victims" POV-fork brought to you by PMK1 actually i have tried to use as many non-macedonian or non-balkan sources as i could find! PMK1 (talk) 21:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Article is one big POV of fest

Nearly everything in this article seems to be said from the point of view of FYROM nationalists and official communist history. There is no mention that the the United States government at the time (and other non-communist countries) regarded talk of a Macedonian nation irredentist demagoguery directed against Greece by communists (both in and outside of Greece... in particular Tito in Yugoslavia that renamed Vardar into the People's Republic of Macedonia).For instance, the following official statement by US Secretary of State E.Stettinius was made in 1944.

The Department has noted increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government (of USA) would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian forces” against Greece. (;U.S. State Department', :Foreign Relations Vol. VIII, 868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)

The subtle and not-so-subtle misrepresentation of the facts to promote what is essentially a communist narrative to history is by definition propaganda. This article is such a POV fest it either needs to be rewritten or flagged for deletion.

--Crossthets (talk) 15:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You seem to forget what the actual article is about. It is not about whether a Macedonian State should exist in Greece. It is not about the Greek people opposition to an Autonomous state encompassing part of Greek Macedonia, etc. It is an article about the ethnic macedonian refugees from the greek civil war and their exodus to yugoslavia and the eastern bloc. You cannot simply say that is FYROMian propaganda when 95% of the sources are not even from FYROM (as you call it). It is nice that E.Stettinius was opposed to a Macedonian state in Greece, and now what? No state was ever made, be happy. Their is not point into bringing up irrelevant sources. PMK1 (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

More communist narrative to history. Read again.

This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. --Crossthets (talk) 17:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

References

The following references have problems:
3 & 4: come from a blog-site,(and if you also check the discussions below, not everyone agrees to what is said.)
7: no ISBN
10: Daskalovski reciting Danforth,so it’s basically Danforth once more
13: no page given (what is cited cannot be checked without the page.)
14, 17, 18: Helsinki... (it is generally accepted that Helsinki is not RS, with strong anti-Greek POV)
15 & 16: it is the same, and there is no page,ISBN, or publication
20: blog. not RS
21: huh? more explanation needed
22: link appears broken
30: Reliability... and another thing, the author of this article claims 28.000 children. This source refers to 5132+4148+3590+2859+672=16401, 12000 less. The sources don't match.
34: ISBN
35 & 38: link broken
36 & 39: translation (of the part of interest) missing
37: ISBN
40: ISBN
42: see 30
43: from Eleftherotypia: * Υπάρχει, όμως, και ένα πολιτικό και ανθρωπιστικό ζήτημα, σε επίπεδο κοινωνίας πολιτών. Εννοούμε τους πολιτικούς πρόσφυγες του εμφυλίου πολέμου, οι οποίοι έχουν εξαιρεθεί από τον γενικό επαναπατρισμό και ζουν κυρίως στην ΠΓΔΜ, έχοντας την υπηκοότητα του κράτους αυτού.
this does not mention people with "FYROM origin", but political refugees that live mainly in FYROM and have citizenship of that state
44 & 45:ISBN
46: see 30
47: see 35 & 38
49 & 51,57,58: see 14
50: link broken
53,54,55,56 : it is the same
59: reliability
60: see 3
61: ISBN
62: reliability
63 & 64: reliability and see 43
65: Helsinki again

And since the article is accused of being PovFork (an accusation I 100% agree with), all sources should have the relevant quotations written in the "references" part. Also, entire sections are badly referenced (actually, mosty of the article). This article violates the guideline WP:POVFORK,the entire policy of WP:NPOV and its sub-policies in two ways (two POV), also, the transformation of what once was Child refugees of the Greek Civil War to this is against the policy of WP:CONSENSUS. (It is also against MOSMAC, by reffering to the term "Aegean Macedonians" that is considered uncivil and offensive to Greeks, and via that it violates WP:CIVILITY).

Also,I agree to the nomination for deletion proposal as expressed by Avg and the other users--Michael X the White (talk) 15:33, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Please have a look at the history of that page on KAPNISMA's talk page. This was a fresh article. Also in response to the sources.

3 & 4, they come from Balkan insight.com not a blog site but rather a news website for the whole balkans. Not just posting anti-greek POV either.
7, there is no ISBN. now there is one, lack of ISBN is no excuse, go to google.
10, not just a recitation stating of facts from his point of veiw.
14, although from helsinki, it clearly states that the information is from an "ethnic macedonian viewpoint". This is both in the helsinki booklet and the article. Ethnic Macedonian sources put the number of Macedonians who fled from Greece at 213,000. This is an adequete response.
17, i dont think that this is very POV, there was hellenisation in post WW1 greece. 18, this actually happened. Many "bulgarians" began to identify as "slav-macedonians" or "Macedonians" after this point. the fact that it is form helsinki is not debateble.
20, it isn't a blog but a speech from Nikos Zachariadas. The fact it is on ethnic macedonian library source is irrelevant. If it were on the internet from else where it would also be used.
21, a wiki link from this page, source 21. See user who added it for more details.
22, yes it is broken that is probably my fault. If you wish to verify the source, google it. Until i can replace the link
30, yes that source gives figures for the eastern bloc. add the children sent to yugoslavia c. 11/2,000 + 16,000 = c. 28,000
34, 44, 45, google it for more information. There is sufficient information already.
42, see 30
43, mainly ethnic macedonians most of the greek have left. There are only c.400 greeks in the country anyway. Also that is another Wiki link from this page, i think
36 & 39, when i have time i can provide a serbian translation if you wish 35 & 38, my apologies for the broken link. Google it and replace it if you wish to contribute to the article 53 - 56, actually refering to reports from different years. 62, 62, 64, all they are are news articles from an ethnic macedonian source. I hope that for the information quoted that their background is irrelevant. They are to show actions by ARCAM, not why they did it but what they did.

will finish the list For all these links that are broken, google them. I have used the exact headings :). PMK1 (talk) 05:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Communists were the "oppressors" not "the persecuted"

PMK1... the communists that controlled Yugoslavia... and also tried to take over Greece (both Greeks and Slavs in that instance) were the bad guys. The vast majority of people on this planet would be deeply offended if you tried to turn various communists uprisings that turned their nations into parts of the oppressed Soviet Bloc... as "victims of persecution". Greece was simply one of the lucky ones that escaped it (at a heavy cost of lives).

Try argue the same thing to the vast majority of citizens in an eastern block nation that was annexed to the Soviet Union and suffered oppression under them... and they will say the exact same thing about their own communists. One can't call Nazi children "victims" and later claim it is a serious position. Your "persecution" comments are offensive period. Any bad things Greeks did (to both FYRoM and Greek communists in the fog of war) has to be put into the larger context of war (the cold war in particular). If Greeks were sincerely trying to ethnically cleanse them then there wouldn't be a single Slavophone Greek left. If it was only directed at Slavaphones than they wouldn't have kicked out thousands of Greeks too.

This isn't to say all modern FYRoM nationals are bad people. By no means do I personally think that despite all the issues at the moment. However, I do think some FYRoM citizens need to come to terms with the bad things in their country's past and stop blaming Greeks for everything. --Crossthets (talk) 22:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You have raised some good points. I dont believe that greeks were trying to ethnically cleanse greek macedonia, i am not claiming that greeks were not forced to leave/evacuated greece. And all Greek citizens are not bad people either. Who are these Nazi children? Many peopel did actually believe that they would be persecuted under a non-communist government. Many people who had finally been granted schools, theatres, newspapers, forums, radio in the Macedonian language were afraid of losing these privilidges. Which they did (for the ones who stayed). you should try seeing it from all veiwpoints and see why the word "persecution" has been used references. PMK1 (talk) 05:09, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Crossthets, are you seriously justifying political persecution by pointing to the moral superiority of the victors of the Greek Civil War? "Any bad things Greeks did (to both FYRoM and Greek communists in the fog of war) has to be put into the larger context of war (the cold war in particular)." So you consider exile to Gyaros until 1974 to be a reasonable measure? Please try keeping your political convictions out of the actual article content.

I'll answer that as soon as you tell me if you are seriously suggesting Stalin era communists... that tried to make Greece part of the communist block.... that MURDERED thousands of non-communist Greeks... are now the politically persecuted??? Perhaps you are now prepared to turn Stalin and Tito into liberators too? --Crossthets (talk) 19:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing may not have occured but is not as if the victors did not harbor a form of nationalism. Remember the slogan "Ellas Ellinon Christianon" (Greece of the Christian Greeks) was produced and primarily used by officers who were veterans of this war. Dimadick (talk) 13:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What nation doesn't have some nationalism? The point seems more like mudslinging directed at Greeks than anything relevant to the current issue at hand. Perhaps more importantly though you neglect the junta in Greece was backed by the CIA because of fears of communism spreading to Greece.

IMO many people unknowingly live in a postmodernist thought process where all POVs are equal in merit. That just isn't true. For someone to try and suggest that is like suggesting Jewish people are morally equal to the jail guards that turned them into soap bars. The communists and irredentists that were ejected were not the "persecuted".... they were the oppressors. They were not "harassed".... they were the ones that did the harassing. --Crossthets (talk) 19:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Article for Deletion

The contents of this article ramble and misquote original sources. It has a political purpose. It seems too easy to create huge articles and then expect them to be contested line by line. It has also been covered in other articles. Also, there was never any question in Greece or the broader region of an exodus of ethnic Macedonians; this name was established afterwards for political reasons. There were Slavophone Greeks, Slav Macedonians and, of course, thousands of Greeks who took or had to take the road to exile after the bloody civil war that marked the beggining of the 'hot' cold war. Politis (talk) 15:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Please actually provide examples of rambling and misquoting. Who says that this never happened. This does not have a political purpose, dont make claims like it is too big. The reason for its size is the complexity of the issue and the aftermath. There were Slavophone Greeks, Slav Macedonians and, of course, thousands of Greeks who took or had to take the road to exile after the bloody civil war that marked the beggining of the 'hot' cold war., this article is focusing on these refugees of the war. PMK1 (talk) 21:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Support deletion. It's not hard to spot problems for those that know the conflict PMK. It starts right away with the title Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians. Biblical "Exodus" is a very bad choice of words to describe people kicked out during a conflict that was their own fault but what really makes it unbearable is sections 6, 7, 8 that are clearly intended to make out communists that tried to over Greece by force... into victims.

Of course they were "harassed". It was a communist civil war... and they were irredentist communists of Slavic origin that were obviously sympathetic to Slavic Yugoslavian/Bulgarian communists bordering northern Greece. Some may have been indeed innocent people but its not always so easy to separate out the good from the bad when guns are being pointed at your head by hundreds of thousands of communists, communist block is just to the north of you and one is surrounded on all sides by countries that want a piece of you.

For the record... this is the first time I've argued for article deletion. Normally I would just try and edit something out but too much of this article isn't salvageable.As a compromise I wouldn't object if you want to keep some of the content to add to either a section of the existing Greek civil war article... or create a new (better titled) page to describe what happened to all the former communist Greek citizens ejected from Greece (both Slavic and Greek). Singling out only the Slavic ones the way you have... implicitly suggests Greeks were trying to ethnically cleanse them... when the real issue was communism and irredentism.

I realize FYRoM citizens weren't let back in subsequently. Feel free to note that... but also make sure to note it wasn't because they weren't Greeks. Despite all the FYRoM stereotypes that Greeks are xenophobes... in practice over the last few years Greece has let in hundreds of thousands of Albanians and other non-Greeks from all over the region (in the middle of being overwhelmed with illegals on a per capita basis second to none). In addition, Slavophones that weren't communists are still in Greece to this day.

I'm willing to work with you here PMK1 and go easy on all the atrocities these former communists committed in Greece as a gesture of goodwill (and I don't blame their children for anything) but I will not have the reputations of relatives that died fighting commie bastards trying to take over Greece by force... scarred by even a small whiff of victimhood for them. --Crossthets (talk) 06:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If you do not like the term "Exodus" which just means a going out; a departure or emigration, usually of a large number of people: the summer exodus to the country and shore. [1] . It can refer to the exodus of people into major cities, etc. The word "exodus" is not refering to any biblical themes. Also i can see why you might find chapter 7 hard to believe, but why 6 and 8?

Yes they were harrased. So were the greeks, it is up to the reader to analyze the information, not just post it because they were the "evil communists". Actually i am not trying to imply "ethnic cleansing" but give an overveiw of the "ethnic Macedonian" refugees who left the Greek Civil War. I am not justifying anybodies actions. I have attempted to create an objective page on the article. User: Crossthets although you seem as if you genuinely want to help you are letting personal feelings take over. Insults to the communists may be popular in greece but can be offensive to other people. PMK1 (talk) 07:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Crossthets is, according to his user profile, Greek Canadian. "Insults to the communists" are not all that popular in Greece, at least since the Communist Party of Greece was legalised back in 1974. Since then its reputation has improved and executed former members such as Nikos Beloyannis and Nikos Ploumpidis are treated as martyrs by the wider public.

"Exodus" derives from the perfectly Greek word "exodos" ("departure") and has been given to "Shemot because it describes a departure from Ancient Egypt. The world itself does not carry religious connotations. I think PMK1 has made an effort to keep POV out of the title.

The article could use additional referencing and/or require a merger with Political refugees of the Greek Civil War and Child refugees of the Greek Civil War which cover aspects of the same event. Complete deletion however would delete some useful content. The other two articles have not covered countries of destination at all and eventual fates of the exiles are not mentioned. Dimadick (talk) 14:22, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The article uses a sensitive terminology that emerged through the irredentist policies against Greece from the late 1940s (ethnic Macedonians, Aegean Macedonia...). At the time, the Slavophnes referred to themselves (if at all) as Slavophone Macedonians from Greek Macedonia. Despite some merits, the article's purpose is not to portray a legitimate and factual presentation of that chapter of the Greek Civil War but seems rooted (intentionally or not) in current political propaganda. At the very least the name of the article should be changed to Deca Begaltsi. Politis (talk) 14:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

In popular english culture the word "exodus" most certainly does carry religious connotations under the right context (which you yourself mentioned the reference Dimadick)... and a sense of persecution. If this were a case where the article treated the communist rejects as the oppressors they were... I would not object to the use of the word. However the article clearly tries to show them as "persecuted", "harassed", etc... and isolated them as "Macedonian" victims (and treating thousands of ethnic Greek Macedonians that were also rejected for the exact same reasons as an afterthought).

Picture if this was the Nazi German article and it claimed in WP that Nazis were being "harassed" by the allies. Or Kim Jong-il being "harassed" by South Koreans. Or try going to the Poland page and claim the solidarity party was "harassing" Soviet Block communists. How about the Ukrainainian citizens that were forcibly added into the Soviet Union? Were they "harassing" Stalin? etc... etc...

We are taking about uber-violent Stalin-era communists here... not modern western communists that are mostly benign and work within the system. Lets try and remember here the guns in the picture that the "persecuted" fighters are holding.... were used to blow off the heads of thousands of non-communist Greeks fighting them. (who eventually went on to form a modern democratic state while the communists went on to join their "comrades" in the eastern block)

Here is what US Secretary of State E.Stettinius wrote on 26.12.1944 about "ethnic macedonians"

The Department has noted increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government (of USA) would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian forces” against Greece. :U.S. State Department, :Foreign Relations Vol. VIII, 868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)

The article subtlety accuses Greece of ethnic cleansing...thereby implicitly doing the same for the US government that militarily supported them. This is completely unacceptable. As I said to PMK1 he does make some valid points around the article, and As I said.... I have no problem if he wants to build a new article from the ground up with them (or add it to the existing Greek communist civil war article)...but I feel its a waste of time rewriting an article so skewed towards Stalin era communist perspective and FYRoM hostile propaganda intended to make themselves appear like victims (in an attempt to manipulate the public in the name dispute (i.e. so they don't have to come up with a geographic qualifier and claim themselves the "real" Macedonians at the expense of millions of other regional self-identifying Macedonians that don't relate to FYRoM). --Crossthets (talk) 16:11, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Crossthets' and Politis' points that back deleting the article. I am not so worried about the oppressor and persecutor part (except the fact that the entire article is only from the communist point of view), but I am more worried of the implication of ethnic cleansing. It is implied that, as "communists promised that they would all live together in a united Greece", their rightist opponents would ethnically persecute any non-Greek. Also, does this article meet the notability standards? It is given undue weight from its very title, and is presented as a major event for the Balkans and particularly Greece, when it is not. I think a small,neutral summary could be included in the original article for those who left, but I don't think this article here is of any other need or value.--Michael X the White (talk) 16:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If you people actually plan to contibute to the article then why dont you add the view of the Greek Army, seeing as only communists are represented in this article. Actually it is not given undue weight by its title, it is well known throughout eastern europe and their is much non-macedonian information on the subject. Again, Crossthets there is no ethnic cleansing going on, there is no US sponsored ethnic cleansing going on. you are now taking things out of context, providing ridiculous examples (kim jong il???) and are unable to accept the fact that the article is well sourced and that this event actually occured. Despite what your political beliefs are that is no excuse to such strong approval/disapproval in any article. PMK1 (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Rubbish. Articles are deleted all the time on Wikipedia. The repeated use of words like "persecution", "harassment" "refugee", etc... definitely tries to imply some sort of ethnic cleansing occurred. Let's not pretend this is the first time a FYRoM national has tried to sneak in accusations of this sort.' (which seems to have now become a full time past time for many FYRoM nationals because Greece refuses to agree on Macedonians name without a qualifier).

As I said I am not opposed to building up a new article from the ground up (based on valid parts of this article) if you'd like and equally inclusive of ethnic Greeks) so I don't understand what your issue is here. The word persecution" to describe a bunch of communist murderers that tried to take over Greece and add it to the Soviet block is completely unacceptable to me. (although nobody has to listen to me and can even call them heroic like Tito did if they'd like). Stalin era communists were persecutors not the the persecuted. Present day FYRoM citizens can claim to Danforth whatever they like... they were still the ones spreading the communist manifesto. Lucky for you the communists eventually lost.... or you wouldn't have the freedom to argue your point here.

If your personal political views don't agree PMK... consider taking it up with the creator of Wikipedia Jim Wales. See what he thinks about your argument. --Crossthets (talk) 23:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobody cares about your personal opinion, Crossthets. If the sources say the communists were persecuted by the others, then that's what Wikipedia will say. Your opinion on who was what carries no weight whatsoever. You seem to be ranting about random things, trying to "prove" that PMK1 is a "propagandist". That veers on a personal attack. Do you have anything useful to say, other than you don't like it? BalkanFever 03:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

As usual you divert the discussion into another personal diatribe. I don't take a single word back and recommend you go to ANI if you feel there is a real problem. You can explain to ANI how you now think communists are now the "persecuted" and "harassed".. and those that fought them were the "persecutors".

And although I am typing the words... it is not my opinion communism was oppressive. (although it may be the opinions of others it was not). I am not so epistemologically challenged as to think all POVs and narratives are equally valid. A dog and a cat are not the same thing just because Balkanfever pulled up someone that wrote a book in a world of 6 Billion people. It's one thing to make mention of an alternate viewpoint. It is quite another thing to make it the focal point of an entire article.

If you don't believe communists were oppressive I recommend you go to the main article page and dig up sources that support your political theories. If you are one of the legions of FYRoM nationals that promotes Greeks committed "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide"... I recommend you take up such accusations up with the US government that assisted Greece in removing both Greek and Slavic irredentist communists from Greek territory.

This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. US Secretary of State E.Stettinius 1944

Why do you think those words were uttered? Are you accusing the US government of ethnically cleansing "Macedonians" now? --Crossthets (talk) 05:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Why should we be so concerned by what E. Stettinius has to say in a McCarthy style speech? We are not talking about United Macedonia here. We are talking about the rights of Macedonians in greece when the communists were in control. Please focus on the article and stop going off topic, otherwise we will really get no where! PMK1 (talk) 09:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In other words... you have no answer. And those words were in reference to communists... and it has everything to do with the article. I would add in the point myself but I refuse to legitimize this article that is essentially one long rant against Greece and continue to support its deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossthets (talk • contribs) 20:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I do have an answer, and i am not accusing the US government of ethnic cleansing nor the greek one. PMK1 (talk) 21:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are. The use of the word "persecution", "harassment", and focus on "ethnic Macedonian" communist "suffering" implies that. Stop pretending FYRoM nationals don't insinuate genocide all the time because I can dig you hundreds of Google hits where FYRoM nationals attempt to do so.

I'm trying to work with you here pmk. I believe you believe some of the things you argue... I just think you are the victim of decades of communist era propaganda that's spilled over to today. However, if you try to continue down this particular road... when its clear they were communists that tried for a long time to take over Greece by force... it will strain that belief. --Crossthets (talk) 04:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It is amusing, persecution is used only twice, harassment once, ethnic cleansing 0 and suffering is also 0. These words are hardly used in the article if at all. Do not put words into my mouth, i am not claiming ethnic cleansing by the US or the Greek governments. Many people fled Greece in the hope of retaining and not losing the freedoms and rights which they had fought for. Such as having Macedonian language schools, media, theatre, newspapers, the right to speak Macedonian. Many were not fighting for the communists because they were communist, but rather the rights they had gained under communist control. These rights were lost after the communist defeat.

I do not wish to discuss frivolous issues any further. Please bring up serious concerns, which should be adressed. Also, I am not interested in how many "FYROM" hits there are on google towards an irrelevant topic such as genocide. PMK1 (talk) 08:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. I don't buy your narrative. The tempo of the article revolves around "persecution" of Slavic communists. The communists weren't defeated until 1992... and to be frank...after 50 years of communist propaganda..I think many of them still believe the communist line. You don't have to participate in the dialog if you don't want to... but be aware if you wave your participation your input won't be be part of the decision making process. --Crossthets (talk) 02:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Exodus of Communists from Greece

Following the Greek Civil war tens or maybe hundrends of communists left the country for mainly the Eastern Bloc states. These people were not only ethnic "Macedonians", but also Greeks. This article tries to present the exodus (and to an extend the Greek civil war) as an ethnic and not as the political war that it was. In most of the cases the article refers to "children refugees", assuming that these children were ethnic "Macedonians". It says that By the 1970s hundreds of refugees had returned to the Socialist Republic of Macedonia from the Soviet Union. Most notably from the clusters of refugees in Tashkent and Alma Ata. There is an article titled Greeks in Uzbekistan, which also deals with the communist refugees. No article about the purported "ethnic Macedonians" in Uzbekistan exists. In the case of Romania, the wannabe respective article makes no mention. Instead, it unhistorically and with no sources claims ethnic "Macedonian" inhabitants in Romania in the 14th century... For the case of Poland, this article mentions both Greeks and ethnic "Macedonians". For the case of the former Yugoslavia, it mentions mainly the word "children", without ethnic affiliation. For Czechoslovakia the case is also mixed. In Bulgaria the same. For East Germany the article states: It claimed by sources that all of these children were "Greek" but no distinction was made regarding the ethnicity of the children; only because the author found no mention of the term "Macedonian". Why don't we stick to the sources? Those children in East Germany were Greek. For Hungary, the bulk of the section refers to "refugees" and "children". I will add fact tags in some cases. The article needs further sections: 1. Perpetrators: who was responsible for the expulsion of the communists? Not only the Greek royalists, but also FYROM's closest ally, the United States. This has to be stated and made clear. Not only the civil war was triggerred by the British and the Americans, but it was cause of their assistance that the royalists won. 2. Communist policies enforced to alienate the communist refugee population from their (at leat for part of them) Greek origins and culture, especially in the former Yugoslavia. Policies enforced by Tito (or under Tito's influence), since the "Macedonian language" suddenly appears to be taught under his rule. "Macedonian" ethnic identification practically did not exist until then. Evidence concerning the assimilation policies and the nation building processes followed by Tito are easily traceable, even for the current PM of FYROM [2].

In light of the above, I propose, and strongly endorse, that the article be renamed "Exodus of Communists from Greece". Now that would a whole lot less POV than the current Makedonskian victim-fest. --Tsourkpk (talk) 17:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer deletion but I would be willing consider that as an alternative if some major "persecution" modifications to the existing article were made.--Crossthets (talk) 02:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

You are never happy with anything? 'persecution, that is what the source says. get over it. Why don't you actually find contrary sources or actually help with the article and wikipedia in general, instead of just either blocking everything or complaining it is anti greek propaganga. Oh and please do not start the US Secretary of State E.Stettinius rant again. I am sure wiki has heard enough about it. PMK1 (talk) 08:56, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I object to your characterization of my point about official US stance on the matter in 1944 as "a rant". Whether you like it or not the US did view talk of "Macedonian nation" as an act of aggression against Greece. Its a fact. Unfortunately some people do their best to hide that little detail on Wikipedia --Crossthets (talk) 23:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

In many cases this article is written in a nationalist way. Sometimes uses plain language for that, other times uses the "art of implication". Examples:

1. Many Slavs in the Ottoman Empire chose not to identify with an ethnic groups but rather religious group and The Ottoman Empire identified population groups based on religious orientation; simply wrong. The Ottoman Empire, after its initial years, identified its citizens not only based on religious affiliation. This is why we have census about Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, although they all are Orthodox. The fact that we do not have "Macedonians" in any Ottoman census, simply means that there weren't any "Macedonians".

2. There was much Bulgarianisation in southern Macedonia: Bulgarisation is a term used to describe a cultural change in which something culturally non-Bulgarian is made to become Bulgarian. Certainly not the case of the ethnic "Macedonians" who have no obvious difference from the Bulgarians.

3. After the Balkan Wars in 1913 when Greece took control of southern Macedonia it began an official policy of forced assimilation (Hellenization) which included the settlement of Greek refugees and Pontic Greeks from other regions into southern Macedonia: The Greek refugees came in Greece in the early '20s. The other regions the authors wants to say are Anatolia and Pontus, places not under Greek control. Greek refugees settled in every part of Greece. Almost half of those settled in Greek Macedonia, settled in Thessaloniki.

(more examples will follow) --Hectorian (talk) 11:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Not only that, but all this "material" is highly redundant with the content of other articles. It's the same with the Makedontsians article, the "aegean" Makedontsians, the Macedonia (region) article, only to mention a few. --Tsourkpk (talk) 13:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

At least number 1 in the list above is plain common knowledge, read any introductory history book. You placed five or six "fact" tags on a short group of sentences that actually had a reference. Read. "fact" tags are not for WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I admit that point 2 was not worded very well. I have changed the wording. PMK1 (talk) 21:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Article is now nominated for deletion

As you can see on the top of the article page, I've nominated this article for deletion. Please provide your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece. Thanks! --Avg (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

KEEP!!!!! This article is up for deletion, yet Greek refugees article and Pontic Greek Genocide is allowed to remain up! This is the same situation and are parallels to one another. This article should not be deleted, if it is, then the Pontic Greek articles should be too. Revizionists idea is a good one, renaming the article to Ethnic Macedonian refugees from Greece can include the exodus and other refugees that occurred as a result of ww2 policies. Avg you are wrong on the issue, those refugees that were Greek returned to Greece in the 1980s, this focuses on the refugees that could not return to Greece as a result of Greek discrimination, in which "non-Greek" political refugees would not be allowed to return. In any case, the amount of people that returned to Greece were small, and the overwhelming amount proclaim to be ethnic Macedonian. What a horrible argument you present, I wouldn't be surprised if you believed the refugee children were Greek. Mactruth (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Nobody says that the ethnic Macedonian refugees from the Greek Civil War must be treated apart from the ethnic Greek refugees from the Civil War, but there are two main reasons why there has to be a separate article about the ethnic Macedonian political refugees. First of all the article is NOT ONLY ABOUT those ethnic Macedonians that were evacuated or expelled during the Civil War, but also those that refuged in order to be saved from the terror made by the PAO and Tagmata Asfalias during World War 2 (additional references and text will be added soon). Secondly, the ethnic Macedonian refugees were organized in their own organization (called ILINDEN, with a main newspaper called ILINDEN). Third, and also important, the ethnic Macedonians were TREATED DIFFERENTLY for they were looked upon as "Yugoslav agents", and they had different destiny from the Greek refugees - the GREEKS BY NATIONALITY WERE ALLOWED to settle back in Greece, while the ETHNIC MACEDONIAN refugees WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SETTLE BACK IN GREECE. These people had ethnic Macedonian CONSCIOUSNESS - namely because of their ethnic Macedonian consciousness the Greek state does not give them back their properties, because only Greeks by ethnicity are given this right. If you need more arguments, please ask and I will give you proof and answer, but we must not allow a referenced article to be deleted just because someone does not like it. Regards to all, and I sincerely hope this dispute will be over soon. --Revizionist (talk) 21:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Numbers of refugee children.

Their has been some controversy as to the number of refugee children. Also to as to whether or not the sources have been refering directly to ethnic macedoians.

• Reference 1:Macridge, Peter A.; Eleni Yannakakis (1997). Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912. Berg Publishers, 53. ISBN 1859731384. . Quote from the book "This last wave of Slav Macedonian political refugees included perhaps as many as 30,000 children, most of whome were children of Slav Macedonian guerillas who had been killed or were still serving".

• Reference 5: Danforth, Loring M. (1997). The Macedonian Conflict. Princeton University Press, 54. ISBN 0691043566.. Quote from the book: "In one of the most tragic episodes of this period an estimated 28,000 Aegean Macedonians children, known as "child refugees" (deca begalci), were seperated from their families and settled in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in an attempt to save them from the terror, slaughter and bombing inflicted upon the Aegean Macedonians by the Greek government"

• Reference 6: Shea, John (1997). Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation. MrFarland, 116. ISBN 0786402288. Quote from the book: "Among the refugees of the Greek Civil War were 28,000 Macedonian children between the ages of 2 and 14."

• Reference 10:Zhidas Daskalovski; Minority Rights Case Study: Macedonians in Greece. Quote from the article: " However, in 1949 DAG forces were defeated and a new exodus of Macedonians from Greece followed. The number of those who fled is estimated at 100,000 including 28,000 children."

• Reference 11: Minahan, James (2000). One Europe, Many Nations: A Historical Dictionary of European National Groups. Greenwood Publishing Group, 440. ISBN 0313309841. Quote from the book under the chapter "Macedoinans", :"Following the Greek Civil War, an estimated 80,000 - 100,000 Slavs left Greek Macedonia, many to Yugoslav Macedonia while others left Europe".

• Reference 12: Simpson, Neil (1994). Macedonia Its Disputed History. Victoria: Aristoc Press, 92. ISBN 0646204629.. Quote from the book: "Commenting on the plight of the 35,000 Macedonian children who fled Greece at this time, the Greek academic Kofos notes approvingly that a "beneficial side-effect" of all this upheaval was that the Greek government could then refuse entry to the greek emigres to return. These begalci (fleers and their children) have denied bieng able to visit relatives or having acess to their former property right to this day."

Reference 13: Migration Flows in Southeast Europe, a Compendium of National Perspectives, Vladimir Petronijević, 2007 , 221. Quote from the article: "Most of the Macedonians expelled from Greece during the Civil War there (1947-1949) found refuge in Socialist Macedonia" and "However, in 1949 DAG forces were defeated and a new exodus of Macedonians from Greece followed. The number of those who fled is estimated at 100,000 including 28,000 children."

These are the original sentences from the cited texts. PMK1 (talk) 12:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

How about Identity of refugee children?

• The Queen and the Council of Ministers declared that the paidomazoma constituted genocide and a crime against humanity. They argued that communists bands violoently kidnapped Greek children to denationalize them. Right-wing Women, Paola Bacchetta, Margaret Power, p. 119.
• The National Council of Norwegian Women passed a resolution entitled The abduction of the Greek children is a crime for our era. Right-wing Women, Paola Bacchetta, Margaret Power, p. 120.
• Like all aspects of the Greek Civil War, the removal of more than 25,000 Greek children aged between three and fourteen from the war zone to the communist countries. Plundered Loyalties, John S. Koliopoulos, p.263.
• More than 150000 lives were lost in the civil war and some 25000 Greek children were evacuated (some said kidnapped) by the guerrillas. Arms Control and Peacekeeping: Feeling Safe in this World, Ralph Morris Goldman, p. 141.

It depends what you wanna hear and what sources you want to use. Bottom line: neither are we talking about an ethnic conflict nor about an ethnic-related outcome. --Hectorian (talk) 13:32, 2 November 2008 (UTC)