Talk:Guernsey

Etymology

"Guern" resembles the Spanish Cuerno and means horns. It's difficult to see the relevance of this information. If the name is of Norse origin as stated, it is definitely not a cognate of the spanish cuerno, which means that the two words just happen to be somewhat similar and have the same meaning. That's hardly relevant for the etymology so I propose to delete it. Does anyone know the actual (proposed) etymology of the name? --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 01:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I had one suggestion but it was deleted after one minute by some overenthusiastic sheriff who was of the opinion that no etymologies should appear in the whole Wikipedia, because they are no facts, only possibilities.80.223.214.125 (talk) 19:14, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Please give your idea here in order to discuss it. Actually the second part of the name clearly is norman. But the first part probably is not. Usually you have to use the first language spoken, which on the channel islands is megalithic, whatever this language was. Try something like "west" and for Sark "east". And for Jersey something like "mountain", since the highest elevation of the channel islands is on Jersey.

I'm happy to listen to your suggestion. Personally I think "Guern" is simply an abbreviation of 'Guernsey person'. It is how locals use it. The alternative Donkey is used, with a lot of pride, the name applied to "Guerns" by Crapauds (Jersey people). Crapaud meaning toad, which exist on that island, but not on Guernsey. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 19:42, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:V. Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:07, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

usage of work 'Guern' use of 'Crapaud' use of 'donkey' Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 08:16, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

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Hotel list

I don't think we need a list of all the hotels in Guernsey. See WP:NOTGUIDE: "Wikipedia is not the place to recreate content more suited to entries in hotel or culinary guides, travelogues, and the like. Notable locations may meet the inclusion criteria, but the resulting articles need not include every tourist attraction, restaurant, hotel or venue, etc." Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree.

Our sister Wikivoyage project would love that stuff, though... BushelCandle (talk) 23:24, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Major misconceptions - "Guernsey" and "the Bailiwick of Guernsey" are not coterminous.

There are several major misconceptions in the article - these should probably be improved by the creation of separate pages for Guernsey, and the Bailiwick of Guernsey which need serious disambiguation.

It is Guernsey (which consists of the Island of Guernsey and several smaller islets) which is a Crown Dependency, and NOT the Bailiwick, which consists of three Crown Dependencies (Guernsey, Alderney and Sark) each of which are independent and have their own legislature, government and separate legal systems.

The Chief Minister is NOT part of the Government of the Bailiwick - just of Guernsey.

The States of Guernsey is NOT what is shown on the map. This is an outsider's mistranslation of the word "States". There are no 'states' in the Channel Islands -- the governmental (formerly religious) administrative sub-division is along parish lines. In fact Les Etats (as the original Norman French) refers to people not geography. Under no circumstances is Alderney a "State of the Bailiwick of Guernsey"!!!!

It refers to the people who make up the government in each Island - it formerly comprised elements from each of the judicial, executive and legislative branches, but successive reforms have taken it closer and closer to a Westminster model.

So the expression "States of Guernsey" or "States of Alderney" refers either to the legislature (which meets monthly) or to the administration. (The equivalent term in Sark is 'Chief Pleas').

How do we go about improving this current situation?

(PS: when referring to a Channel Island Bailiwick, convention is that is always capitalised to distinguish it from the figurative use of the term - as in "Sark is a member of the Bailiwick of Guernsey"

as opposed to:

"The health inspector declined to get involved, saying the establishment was not part of his bailiwick" (figurative) "Glue records are needed when the nameservers are in-bailiwick" (technical, IT)"

PPS: I live here!

Nigelroberts (talk) 08:44, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you say, however you also have the position where the name Guernsey is used for the collective name of all Islands in the Bailiwick of Guernsey..... especially in the media, although there are other examples, for instance the Guernsey Financial Services Commission is responsible for regulating all bailiwick islands, not just the Island of Guernsey. You also have the Lieutenant Governor of Guernsey who is actually the governor of the whole Bailiwick, but is never referred to as such. Alderney became legally part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey in 1948.

Does the "States of Guernsey" legislate over the other bailiwick islands ?

The États de Guernesey can pass legislation that apply to Alderney e.g.

• The Alderney (Application of Legislation) (Food and Drugs) Ordinance, 1996
• The Alderney (Application of Legislation) (Health Service) (Benefit) (Amendment) Ordinance, 1997
• The Alderney (Application of Legislation) (Child Protection) Ordinance, 2000

as well as Alderney passing their own legislation.

Then there are bailiwick laws such as:

• European Communities (Implementation) (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law 1994
• The Human Rights (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law, 2000
• Data Protection (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law, 2001

which could also be applicable to Sark

The info box map commentary is certainly wrong, it should be the bailiwick (I have changed it). Or one should change to a map of just Guernsey, which I think is better as there is a bailiwick map lower down.

I disagree that it is Guernsey that is the Crown Dependancy, I have always believed it to be the Bailiwick, as does the UK government. Fact sheet

The article does need a tidy up.

You can work out where I live from my user name!

User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 10:10, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

I know very little about Guernsey. The confusion starts right in the first paragraph: "Guernsey embraces not only all ten parishes on the island of Guernsey..." OK, so Guernsey embraces Guernsey? Wait, the name refers to both some kind of a political division and to an island of the same name? Then we've got this: "Together, the Bailiwick of Guernsey and Bailiwick of Jersey form the geographical grouping known as the Channel Islands." So now I don't know whether Guernsey is a political division, an island, or a geographical grouping of islands. I think I got it mostly figured out now, but the first paragraph, or at least the lede, should explain this more clearly from the very start. Kendall-K1 (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I think I see your problem. "Guernsey" (and I am only referring to the place between France and England).....is a place.... and a country.... and part of Europe.... and an independent state.... and a crown dependency.... and an island.... and part of an area (within the Bailiwick of Guernsey) .... and a collection of Parishes.... and is used as an abbreviation when one should really refer to the Bailiwick.... and sometimes said, wrongly, to be part of the United Kingdom.... and in the British Isles (sometimes)..... and a knitted sweater... and a breed of cow ..... and part of the Third Reich (for 5 years) .... and part of the lands of the Duke of Normandy (for 1,083 years) .... and a postal zone.... and according to some, a tax haven.... and a participant in the commonwealth games.... and a member of the British–Irish Council.... it can be spelt in several ways, english..... french..... old french......and in patois... and after a campaign, was recognised by facebook as a place..... and the old name for the place, which may be the Roman name, is "Sarnia".

Guernsey is not a sovereign state.... nor part of the United Kingdom.... nor part of Great Britain ..... nor part of the European Union .... nor part of the Commonwealth of Nations..... nor a member of the United Nations..... nor part of NATO..... and is most certainly not part of England, which we conquered in 1066 ! ha ha !

I will have a read of the article afresh and see whether I can make it clearer.

User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 23:55, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey are NOT the same. The existing article is almost a pure Guernsey island page. There should be a Bailiwick of Guernsey page. I will write one for the Bailiwick, it will take a week.

User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 12:00, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not convinced we need two separate articles, but I'm not volunteering to do the work so anything you can accomplish would be good. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:39, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I'll post the draft on this talk page, so we can have a chat about it.

User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 13:10, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The article here is written as though it is Guernsey the Island but framed in a cover that it is the Bailiwick of Guernsey.

Looking at the information box there are several items that are wrong :-

• The Bailiwick does not have a flag - the flag depicted is Guernsey Island, Alderney and Sark have their own flags
• The Coat of Arms is also not, to my knowledge, the coat of arms of the Bailiwick, as the Bailiwick does not have one, this is Guernsey Island, Alderney and Sark have their own.
• Sarnia Cherie is the anthem, but that is the anthem of Guernsey Island. See Alderney which does not list Sarnia Cherie.
• The map shows the Bailiwick of Guernsey
• Status, Crown dependency is correct for the Bailiwick, but not for Guernsey Island unless one says Part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey

(British crown dependency) as it says on Alderney and Sark pages.

• Languages correct for the Bailiwick, not for the Island as it lists Alderney and Sark languages.
• Government - the Bailiwick does not have a government, the three jurisdictions within it, each have their own governments.
• The Lieutenant Governor is LG of the Bailiwick, so is also the LG of each island.
• Saying the chief minister is the head of the government of the Bailiwick is incorrect, he is the CM of Guernsey island.
• The liberation day of 9 May is the date for Guernsey, not Sark (10th) or Alderney (16th).
• British Crown Dependency is correct for the Bailiwick, Guernsey is part of a British Crown Dependency, but not one in itself.

Now looking at the article:-

• Etymology - applicable to both
• History - almost entirely the history of the Island, no mention of Alderney or Sark
• Politics - as the Bailiwick has no government the politics are of Guernsey Island and no mention of Alderney or Sark politics
• Legal system - only covers Guernsey Island
• External relations - a mixture or applicable to both
• Geography - only covers Guernsey Island
• Parishes - only relates to Guernsey Island
• Economy - only relates to Guernsey Island
• Transport - 99% Guernsey Island
• Demographics - 95% Guernsey Island
• Emergency services - all Guernsey Island
• Education - Guernsey island
• Culture - Guernsey Island
• Sport - 98% Guernsey island
• People from or associated with Guernsey - list includes people from all Islands so is Bailiwick based

There are almost no links to Alderney or Sark pages.

Do I get the impression it was written for Guernsey Island and that someone has tried to change it into the Bailiwick ?

I would propose returning the page to being Guernsey, the island and creating a new page for the Bailiwick.

I have drafted a new proposed page:

Proposed new page

• Talk:Guernsey/draft

If anyone wants to compare to Jersey.... then because the Bailiwick of Jersey does not include any other jurisdictions - it is technically wrong, but could be included in the one article.

User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 17:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this. I have taken the extreme liberty of moving the content to a new subpage, as I find it very confusing to have the whole thing here. If you think I have overstepped the bounds of decency then by all means please revert me. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

No thats fine, it is easier seeing it complete.User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 10:50, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I gave it a once-over, and it's much clearer than what we have now. Given that there are already articles for the islands of Alderney and Sark, I withdraw my concerns about making the island and the bailiwick into two articles; this appears to be the best way to do this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll leave it as a proposal till the end of the month in case anyone else wants to comment. User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 13:30, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

So it's more complicated than I thought. For example, Herm is part of the bailiwick of Guernsey and the "jurisdiction" (is that the right word?) of Guernsey but obviously not part of the island of Guernsey. Sark is part of the bailiwick but not part of the jurisdiction. Kendall-K1 (talk) 17:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

I was thinking of Jurisdiction in the legal sense, where a court can try cases and rule on legal matters within a particular geographic area. There are three governments and three courts (GY-AY-SK) and therefore three legal jurisdictions. The geographic area over which authority extends. Yes, Herm falls under the legal jurisdiction of Guernsey (island). Sark is its own jurisdiction. Ref <E> uses the term. User:Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Article now published Bailiwick of Guernsey Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 16:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Ânes-pur-sàng, this should have been the other way round. A new article split off for the island, covering it specifically. This article covers the whole Bailiwick throughout... You could crudely copy and paste everything and write a new article here for the island, but that would be very problematic. Instead, I advise you just revert the split, create a new article at Guernsey (island), then move this page to "Bailiwick of Guernsey" and then Guernsey (island) to "Guernsey". BTW I am not recommending. This needs to be done, the mess this has caused is going to take too much time to clean up. All the links that need to be corrected, the loss of history of the page, etc.. Sorry. Please sort this out. If not, I will... when I have time. Rob984 (talk) 00:52, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Since there have been so few edit, I have went ahead and just reverted back. Please create Guernsey (island) first. Sorry I didn't see the move earlier. Rob984 (talk) 00:57, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree, the Guernsey article had almost no content that related to Alderney or Sark. I agree that most of the history of Guernsey is also the history of the Bailiwick of Guernsey, but not all and those other items were missing from this article, as they are in the pages for Alderney and Sark. The information box does not apply to the Bailiwick as there is no chief minister of the Bailiwick for instance. The articles talk about the parishes of Guernsey, with no mention of Alderney or Sark parishes, The legal system only talks about Guernsey not Alderney or Sark, that is because the Bailiwick does not have any laws of its own, the economy and taxation only refer to Guernsey, the Bailiwick of Guernsey does not have any taxation as it has no parliament and no legislature etc etc. I have no idea who wrote the original article, but I presume it was meant for Guernsey the island, all I have done is created one for the Bailiwick as one did not exist. When it comes down to it, if this was supposed to be about the Bailiwick of Guernsey, rather than Guernsey, why was it not called Bailiwick of Guernsey ? Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 01:12, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. The fact is the topical scope was the whole Bailiwick, and you are splitting out a sub-topic. Furthermore, links need to be dealt with, and Wikimedia projects are interconnected via Wikidata. Before you can move Guernsey (island) to "Guernsey", you would have to correct all links for Bailiwick of Guernsey which are currently going to "Guernsey". So this simply cannot be done in one step. If you are correct, then you will be able to copy all the relevant content to a new article and essentially rewrite this one—which is perfectly fine. I have no problem fundamentally with what you are trying to do.

If you create Guernsey (island), you will need to follow these steps:

• First create the article, possibly copy content with attribution, ie "Copied content from Guernsey" in the edit summary (it doesn't matter that the article will be later moved since it is dated)
• Move Guernsey to "Bailiwick of Guernsey", and leave the redirect from "Guernsey" to Bailiwick of Guernsey
• Begin rewriting Bailiwick of Guernsey
• Disambiguate all links to "Guernsey"—either to the Bailiwick of Guernsey or Guernsey (island)
• Once complete, move Guernsey (island) to Guernsey

I know it is a pain and I think a bot can help clean up the links but it has to be done this way.

Rob984 (talk) 01:46, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Rob984: You have admitted that you have no special expertise or knowledge about the Bailiwick of Guernsey so please stop messing about with the work of editors like User:Ânes-pur-sàng that both live in the Jurisdiction and the Bailiwick and the island of Guernsey itself. Please take your ownership issues elsewhere.

There was no previous history that needed to be 'preserved' at Bailiwick of Guernsey that passed the threshold of originality for copyright purposes before this edit which turned a re-direct into a stub.

The article that was previously called just Guernsey was really about the Jurisdiction of Guernsey and I cannot understand exactly why you keep muddying the waters by edits like changing Jurisdiction of Guernsey back to the confusingly named Guernsey and this edit which destroyed a perfectly good developing article about the whole Bailiwick of Guernsey.

Before you buggered it up with your multiple reverts and re-directs the disambiguation page of Guernsey (disambiguation) summed up things reasonably lucidly:

Guernsey usually refers to either:

• Guernsey (island), an island within
• the Jurisdiction of Guernsey which is itself one of the three constituent parts of
• the Bailiwick of Guernsey, a Crown dependency comprised of the jurisdictions of Guernsey, Alderney and Sark, as well as a number of smaller islands

Guernsey may also refer to...

BushelCandle (talk) 21:32, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 7 February 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: The proposal has been withdrawn. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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Guernsey → Bailiwick of Guernsey – Following creation of new article Guernsey (island), this article should be moved to Bailiwick of Guernsey; since the "Guernsey" refers predominately to the island, and "Bailiwick of Guernsey" is a more precise and less ambiguous title for this article. Then, after links are cleaned up, either Guernsey (island) or Guernsey (disambiguation) can be moved to "Guernsey". Rob984 (talk) 11:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC) Edit: Withdrawn proposal following my failed attempt at reorganisation (of which this was part of), although I wont close the thread since the discussion below seems to be on how to reorganise from now. Rob984 (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Contrary to our usual 'common English names' names policy, there should be NO article entitled simply 'Guernsey'. 'Guernsey' should be(come) a redirect to the disambiguation page referring to (at least) two separate and distinct articles: Guernsey (island) and Bailiwick of Guernsey. BushelCandle (talk) 12:48, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

It's now become much clearer to me that 'Guernsey' should be moved to 'Jurisdiction of Guernsey' - but NOT over a redirect since there should then be a new re-direct from a new page of 'Guernsey' which redirects to 'Guernsey (disambiguation)'. That means that we end up with THREE substantive articles with Guernsey in their titles: Bailiwick of Guernsey, Guernsey (island) (a new article) and Jurisdiction of Guernsey which will be the old article renamed and modified but edit history preserved. BushelCandle (talk) 21:50, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• There is currently an article at Bailiwick of Guernsey. It seems somebody has made a mess of this. Srnec (talk) 16:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

BushelCandle created that after I deleted it. BushelCandle, if you want "Guernsey" to be a disambiguation page then AFTER this requested move you could request Guernsey (disambiguation) is moved to "Guernsey". You can't change this page to a new disambiguation page, as the history for both Bailiwick of Guernsey and Guernsey (disambiguation) would be lost. Jesus. I am only carrying out damage control and have no view on what the primary topic of "Guernsey" is. Rob984 (talk) 18:52, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

BushelCandle you have lost the plot. There is no consensus for three articles, and definitely no consensus for that name change which I will revert. You cannot start renaming articles unilaterally and I WILL report you if you do so again. That said, I give up trying to clean up this mess. Rob984 (talk) 20:54, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Can I clarify what you meant to communicate here, Rob:

Are you promising to go away and stop causing unnecessary confusion when you write "I give up" or are you so incorrigible that you will flout the opinion of those editors here that have already tried to explain to you the difference between the island, the jurisdiction (includes Herm, Lihou, Jethou, etc) and the Bailiwick of GG (includes 2 other jurisdictions of Alderney and Sark) and then report yourself for 3RR just to score a point or two ??? BushelCandle (talk) 21:56, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Mmmm, I see that you are now claiming at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Mess_at_Guernsey_with_one_editor_unilaterally_moving, creating, and_mass-editing_articles that "it was agreed to split the article into two". I don't see that agreement. I do see you making a claim that it had to be done that way, but I clearly disagreed above and I don't see anyone at all yet that supports your changing the developing article about the Bailiwick of Guernsey back into a plain (but extremely confusing) redirect. BushelCandle (talk) 22:24, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I also think you were a bit quick with your template about your proposal. It would have been better, in my opinion, to run your "split in 2" proposal up the flagpole first and see if there was any support for it before you bring out the 'template big guns' to give a spurious sense of consensus and authority. BushelCandle (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Well now I'm confused again. I still don't see how an island can "embrace" other islands. Unless there is a lake on the island, with islands in that lake, but I don't think that's the case here. Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:07, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

In my view, the confusion has been caused by Rob984 who admitted that he had no special expertise or knowledge about the Bailiwick of Guernsey and should have listened to editors like User:Nigelroberts and User:Ânes-pur-sàng that both live in the Jurisdiction and the Bailiwick and the island of Guernsey itself unless he had a consensus to do such damage. I've seen him in action on other articles where he tries to preserve an erroneous status quo ante by destructive and multiple reverts. Please take your ownership issues elsewhere where you may have a bit more knowledge, Rob!

There was no previous history that needed to be 'preserved' at Bailiwick of Guernsey that passed the threshold of originality for copyright purposes before this edit which turned a thirteen-year old re-direct into much more than just a stub article.

The article that was previously called just Guernsey was really about the Jurisdiction of Guernsey and I cannot understand exactly why Rob keeps muddying the waters by edits like changing Jurisdiction of Guernsey back to the confusingly named Guernsey and this edit which destroyed a perfectly good developing article about the whole Bailiwick of Guernsey.

Before Rob buggered it up with multiple reverts and re-directs the disambiguation page of Guernsey (disambiguation) summed up things reasonably lucidly:

Guernsey usually refers to either:
* Guernsey (island), an island within
* the Jurisdiction of Guernsey which is itself one of the three constituent parts of
* the Bailiwick of Guernsey, a Crown dependency comprised of the jurisdictions of Guernsey, Alderney and Sark, as well as a number of smaller islands

Guernsey may also refer to...

BushelCandle (talk)

I fully agree that Rob984 has messed things up however he says it has rolled away from him and he has sent me a message saying he has withdrawn and is sorry.

It is not necessary to have an article of Guernsey (island) - looking at the article under this name that Rob984 has created I would point out the following is wrong or useless - (1) Introduction - The Island is NOT divided into 10 parishes, it is the Jurisdiction of Guernsey that is divided into 10, the islands of Lihou, Herm and Brechou are included in parishes. (2) History - There is nothing new in the section that is not also in the Jurisdiction and the Bailiwick, in fact some of the section is about the Bailiwick, not the Island. (3) Politics - WRONG - The Island has no politics itself, it is the jurisdiction that has politics, as people on Herm, Jethou and Lihou have a vote. (4) Geography - OK, but nothing new that is not in the jurisdiction. (5) Parishes - WRONG - As explained above it is the jurisdiction that is split into parishes (6) Tourism - OK, but nothing new that is not in the jurisdiction. (7) Transport - Refers to Bailiwick transport both in paragraph and in the (see also) and nothing new that is not in the jurisdiction. (8) Demographics - These are for the jurisdiction as no adjustment has been done to remove the island of Herm, Brechou or Lihou populations, again nothing new that is not in the jurisdiction. (9) Emergency services - OK again nothing new that is not in the jurisdiction. (10) Education - The section includes all schools in the Bailiwick, not just the island again nothing new that is not in the jurisdiction. (11) Culture and Sport, apply to the jurisdiction not the island and refers to the bailiwick.

Looking at the article Guernsey It says it is the a crown dependency and has a chief minister. That cannot be, as the Bailiwick is the Crown Dependency and the Jurisdiction of Guernsey has a Chief Minister.

There is nothing materially different between the island of Guernsey and the Jurisdiction of Guernsey that warrants two articles, one covering the Jurisdiction is perfectly adequate, however it should cover the Jurisdiction rather than just the island, otherwise you must omit the courts, the parliament and all the government issues. I oppose the creation of a Guernsey Island page, lets just keep the Guernsey Jurisdiction page.

I believe it is necessary to have an article on the Bailiwick of Guernsey, which is why I wrote it. As was hidden, having been turned into a redirect. I have put it back to the original article so people can read what the Bailiwick actually is, and see it is very different to Guernsey the Island or Jurisdiction.

Lets just put it all back as it was and lets get on with creating something in Wikipedia. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 09:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. What a mess. The only thing I can think of that would be worse than having three articles with largely duplicated content would be to have Guernsey as a dab page, meaning that readers would have to pick through a list of articles like Guernsey (island), Jurisdiction of Guernsey, and Bailiwick of Guernsey to find the content they want. We need to have one article containing the bulk of the content for readers who type in Guernsey and expect to find useful information. The current article makes the most sense as it's the broadest in scope. This is how we do it with other island nations and territories that also contain outlying islands: Jamaica, Greenland, Madagascar, Ireland, etc. If we need content forks, we can fork them off from here. However, we shouldn't just create forks just to create them, as seems to have been done with some of the new articles.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per Cuchullain. A total mess. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:07, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: proposal withdrawn, see thread below. Rob984 (talk) 22:03, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Continuing discussion

I agree with Ânes-pur-sàng, that one article on both the Jurisdiction of Guernsey and island of Guernsey should exist and be titled "Guernsey", while a separate article on the Bailiwick of Guernsey should also exist. Cúchullain has expressed a different view, and opposes moving the Bailiwick away from the title "Guernsey". And others have expressed views different to both of these. So we need to come to some kind of consensus. Right now the discussion is fragmented across multiple articles and multiple threads in this article. I think we should have a centralised discussion here. Rob984 (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

We've already got articles for Alderney and Sark, and it seems confusing to me that we put information about Guernsey (the island and jurisdiction) in to the article about the Bailiwick just because they share a name. It would be like trying to merge NYC in with New York State. I'm afraid I may have triggered this entire mess when I asked for clarification about what exactly "Guernsey" is, because the article at the time didn't make it clear, and I honestly didn't know and couldn't figure it out from what was published at WP. I was quite happy with Ânes-pur-sàng's reorganization, which made a lot of sense to me. Kendall-K1 (talk) 22:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

If someone can draw the appropriate Euler diagram, that might help you understand things in a flash. Meanwhile think of the Bailiwick of Guernsey article standing in a similar relationship to Guernsey as the United Kingdom stands to England. You wouldn't expect too much detail about Scotland and Wales in the England article, would you? However you would expect considerably more detail about Scotland and Wales (as well as England) in the UK article, eh? BushelCandle (talk) 01:12, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

• Cuchullain can speak for himself, but the way I read his comment above is that he is against a proliferation of articles and against "Guernsey" leading to a disambiguation page. He also makes the cogent point that duplication of the same material should be avoided.

I have no problem with keeping and developing both the article and the content entitled Bailiwick of Guernsey for the reasons so comprehensively explained by User:Ânes-pur-sàng above.

if we can agree on his 'two articles about Guernsey' model then we just have to beef up the Sark and Alderney articles a bit by transferring some remaining material from Guernsey and make sure that Guernsey doesn't deteriorate again into including material more properly included at Bailiwick of Guernsey and muddying the distinction between the Jurisdiction and the Bailiwick.

Oops, I nearly forgot: the article that Rob created entitled Guernsey (island) will need to be deleted...BushelCandle (talk) 01:04, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with most of what is said, delete Guernsey island article and keep the other two.

Can I make the point that very few people know what the Bailiwick of Guernsey is, 99.9% of readers will look up Guernsey and expect the majority of information about history, geography, travel, tourism, etc to be located there, and to be honest, most of these subjects are bound to Guernsey. I'm not saying it is right, it is just the way the world works.

It may not be worth while making the Bailiwick article duplicate whatever is in Guernsey, it leads to more maintenance work and long term may be best, if it is considered essential, to keep it very short and refer to the respective sections in articles Guernsey, Alderney and Sark for more information.

A number of sub articles are written about the Channel Islands, therefore including Jersey, these are mainly history based articles and are written as such because the subject needs to be read as a whole to understand them. The Bailiwick could, if essential, refer to the sub articles as a (see also), however you can always get to them through the Guernsey article.

This would also help because I would not like to bury the key points that made the Bailiwick, i.e. don't hide these in the history of the fishing industry of the islands off north america, or the gaming industry on Alderney.

- Maybe my thoughts are based more along the line that the 3 jurisdictions, which each have their own parliaments, direct their own destinies. The United Kingdom comment is relevant but bear in mind that the UK has its own parliament (it happens to be the same as England) and therefore controls its own destiny. It might be better to compare the discussion to Belgium, Luxembourg and Netherlands which have their own parliaments and major articles, which are not duplicated in the Benelux article, Benelux just explaining what it is and how it was created. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 07:47, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The Bailiwick of Guernsey does function as a single territory in international matters. It seems to me like it is comparable to a very decentralised federation, such as Switzerland or Belgium. Is the whole Bailiwick also the responsibility of the States of Guernsey Police Service? Also the Guernsey Border Agency? I assume visa and citizenship law are Bailiwick-wide matters? Rob984 (talk) 11:14, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

The Bailiwick does not function as a single territory in international matters as it has no parliament and no civil service. That is the duty of the Bailiff, as the legal head of the Bailiwick, who exercises it through the Guernsey parliament.

International bodies tend to refer to just "Guernsey" when they really mean the Bailiwick or the Jurisdiction or just the Island. They are probably just as confused as the rest of us.

It is not like a federation as in Belgium and Switzerland, those two have representatives in a government of their countries.

For practical purposes Guernsey supplies police officers to Alderney on rotation, I think it is some of the powers moved from Alderney to Guernsey in 1947 and on odd occasions to Sark, Sark has its own Constable who only needs help on a few days in the summer. The Border Agency looks after the Bailiwick waters as it is also linked to fishery protection of Bailiwick waters.

A person born or who has lived in Alderney or Sark, does not have an automatic right to live and work in Guernsey, many are treated the same as a Jersey, UK other European person. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 15:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Area and length of coast

I'm not sure where the geography section gets the information about the area of land.

The article says Guernsey is 24 sq miles Guernsey including Herm and Jethou is 27 sq miles (The info box says 30.1 sq miles, which I am sure is wrong) however there is no way Herm and Jethou are 3 sq miles in area. Herm says its 0.77 sq miles. and Jethou is under 0.1 sq miles I would have thought Lihou was counted with Guernsey as its connected at low water and is under 0.1 sq miles anyway.

The Bailiwick of Guernsey page says its land area is 30.1 sq miles, Sark is 2.1 sq miles and Alderney 3 sq miles, so that does not add up, as deducting 5.1 from 30.1 gives 25 for the Guernsey jurisdiction area.

Maybe the size of the jurisdiction of Guernsey should say 25 and not 27 as that would match both calculations?

Any ideas where there is proof of any of these measurements ??

Also for length of coast, which is presumably the high water mark.

Lastly it would also be nice to know the size of the Bailiwick waters. Ânes-pur-sàng - À la perchoine 16:58, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

The oldest pillar box

The article says "The oldest pillar box still in use in the United Kingdom" is in Guernsey. If Guernsey isn't in the United Kingdom, neither is this pillar box. I'd fix it, but what to fix it to? The oldest pillar box in the British Islands?? -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 18:15, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Guernsey/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ben MacDui (talk · contribs) 07:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

On a very quick glance through, the article seems to be a credible candidate with the exception of the lead, which does not confirm to the criteria set out in WP:LEAD. If there is a commitment to fixing this within the next 7 days I will go through the rest of the article and provide more detailed comments. Ben MacDui 07:27, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

@Mrh30: It took a long time for anyone to offer to review and I note you have been inactive in the last couple of months. I'll give this another day or two before closing. Ben MacDui 11:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

@Ben MacDui: Going to have a look today - been a bit tied up with work! Mrh30 (talk) 12:48, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Lead

@Ben MacDui: can you be specific as to what exactly is the problem with the lead (too long, too short, strays off topic, doesn't include all relevant information)?

I thought it's simply too short. Bmcln1 seems to think the opposite. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 11:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I haven't omitted any of the lead, simply divided it. I also would be happy if Finnusertop added something to it, bearing in mind that the purpose of a lead is to say what a page is about, not necessarily to say all that it's going to say.Bmcln1 (talk) 11:52, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately WP:LEAD is now so long it may be difficult to grasp what is required. Nonetheless, MOS:INTRO starts: "The lead section should briefly summarise the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." I'd therefore expect the lead to incorporate a brief reference to every main section. In its present form it is just an abbreviated geography section. Ben MacDui 17:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I've tagged it with {{Inadequate lead}}. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I think the lead here should be seen in conjunction with detailed Infobox and Contents, so that the "most important points" are in fact covered already, some of them twice. Had Infoboxes been invented when the WP:LEAD was written? Bmcln1 (talk) 19:33, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Brehaut

The surname Brehaut is a new set index article, saying that the highest concentration of the name is in Guernsey, but all the people are from elsewhere. Please supply a Guernsey person for the list.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 21:48, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

'lamping technique'

There is no reference. I have tried to look this up, no success. Could the author please explain the quoted phrase? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plopfz (talk • contribs) 02:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The percent possible sunshine in the weatherbox

The percent possible sunshine in the weatherbox is wrong. Considering the amount of sunshine Guernsey gets, the numbers are too high. For example, in the summer some of them are above 90%, which is impossible considering the latitude and number of sun hours. I think it will have to be removed. InterstellarGamer12321 (talk) 11:20, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, what does "possible sunshine" mean? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 13:44, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Possible sunshine is the percentage of what the total sun hours could have been. It varies with latitude and can give a more accurate picture of how sunny a place is for high-latitude areas. For example, in June Place A at the Arctic Circle will have more potential hours of sunshine than Place B at the Equator because of the tilt of the Earth. However, even if Place A gets more hours of sunshine than Place B, Place A may have less possible sunshine because it has the potential to get so many more sun hours. There is no place that has 100% possible sunshine, which from my calculations is approximately 4,380 hours. Yuma, Arizona does get quite close with 90% possible sunshine. The UK is not a sunny country, so possible sunshine scores remain low, especially in the winter. That is why I was concerned about the values in the Guernsey weatherbox. InterstellarGamer12321 (talk) 10:54, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

The figures were changed about a week ago without explanation. I've reverted them back to the previous values, which are the same as found in the source. Dendrite1 (talk) 07:45, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

can anyone live in Guernsey?

The article says that anyone (with UK citizenship or residency) can live in Guernsey, but according to the Guernsey government's website you need a residence permit to live there long term, even if you are living in an open market house.

https://www.gov.gg/pmfaq

"Anyone working and/or living in Guernsey requires a Permit/Certificate to do so."

"No. Generally you need to have a Permit or Certificate in place before you come to Guernsey to live and/or work." 2804:431:C7D8:FE70:A008:D7D0:E1FF:C3D2 (talk) 23:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Health.

No information at all about Guernsey’s health system means there is an important gap in information about the island. 2A00:23EE:1938:1442:1945:B788:1819:3A4 (talk) 02:50, 21 June 2024 (UTC)