Talk:Kirkandrews, Dumfries and Galloway

Comment

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 20:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

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Kirkandrews Kirk

• ... that Kirkandrews in Dumfries and Galloway was described as "the ne plus ultra of lowness and obscurity" by a pair of visiting 19th century writers? Source: This is a direct quote from William Daniell and Richard Ayton, reproduced in "Sailing on Horseback" by Innes Macleod - full reference is in the article.
  • ALT1:... that Kirkandrews in Dumfries and Galloway used to host an annual fair, dedicated to St Lawrence, that a 17th century minister complained was full of drink, debauchery and "great lewdness"? This is a light paraphrase of a direct quote, attributed and referenced in the article.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Morse Building

Created by Girth Summit (talk). Self-nominated at 16:59, 5 August 2020 (UTC).

• Interesting article, new and long enough, well cited and neutral. No copyvio detected. Hook is interesting, cited inline; the reference is offline. QPQ is done. Image is properly licensed. Good to go! CallMeByYourMane (talk) 11:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Copyedit, St Andrew, map

Hi GS, I did a copyedit pass. One part I was confused about is: is the Northumbrian St Andrew different from the St Andrew who came by sea from Ireland, or is it one Northumbrian St Andrew who came by sea from Ireland (hitting the British Trifecta?), and is/are this/these St Andrew(s) the same as St Andrew the Apostle, patron Saint of Scotland? Overall, it looks great! Are they still holding that fair? Asking for a friend. ^Lev!v^ich 06:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, thanks for the review, much appreciated. The 'saint' question is a bit vexed. McCulloch (a local author, but not an academic historian) baldly states that it was "dedicated to a Northumbrian saint, Andrew". I don't know where he gets that from, and I can't find anything about a Northumbrian saint called Andrew. I wonder whether there's some confusion with Saint Acca, who was a Northumbrian, is possibly associated with Galloway, and who is reputed to have brought relics of the apostle Andrew to Scotland - but that's my unsourced speculation. The two 19th C writers aren't specific as to the saint - they just say that Saint Andrew arrived from Ireland at this spot. They seem to imply that it was a person who disembarked from a boat, but it's worded ambiguously and I can't rule out the possibility that they're referring to the relics of the apostle arriving here. I've found another source (early 20th C, not in the article yet) which refers to a living Irish saint called Andrew, who founded a church and named it after himself, but the more recent scholarly sources seem to indicate that this is all folklore: they say there definitely was an Ionian church on the site, but both building and name have been lost, and they reckon that a new church was built and dedicated to the apostle Andrew, the patron saint. I'll keep looking for sources that might allow me to nail this down a bit better, agree that it could be more informative.

The fair, sadly, is no more - but I'm thinking about rekindling that flame! I'll let your friend know if it gets off the ground... GirthSummit _(blether) 10:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Levivich Hey - I added some more stuff, and expanded on the name as far as I could go. Your section header above mentions 'map', but you didn't comment on the map - was there something you wanted to say about that? GirthSummit _(blether) 16:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

GS, I think the expansions look good. As for the map, I was going to suggest a Template:OSM Location map like at St Rufus Church, but when I tried to mock one up, I couldn't get it to work for Kirkandrews. ^Lev!v^ich 18:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, hmm. I might try to play with maps a bit more, it would be good to get a zoomed-in map to show the detail. Trouble is, it's so small, it really needs to be very high-res to show anything - we're talking about a single street with maybe ten buildings here, it's not a big place. If you click on the canmore link, which has some aerial photos, you'll see what I mean. GirthSummit _(blether) 23:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

200m
220yds

  

Well, here's a start, taken from {{OSM Location map}}. It's not displaying for me on the page, and when I click on it to get the full screen, it shows the map OK but there are no useful details. I'm not sure how to fix it. ^Lev!v^ich 00:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Levivich, yeah, I'm not sure that really adds anything - it shows the road, but none of the buildings. I can see whether I can dig out an old ordnance survey map that's out of copyright. It will be out of date of course - things move fast in Kirkandrews, there's been two new houses built since 1850 - but it might give the reader a sense of the layout. GirthSummit _(blether) 00:17, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

LOL - just noticed that your map puts a bus stop nearby. I never knew there was a bus stop there - I've never seen a bus on that road, and there is certainly no physical sign of a bus stop, but perhaps each St Lawrence's day the ghost bus drops off a bunch of incorporeal revellers... GirthSummit _(blether) 00:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kirkandrews, Dumfries and Galloway/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 21:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Full review to come.

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Prose

Lead:

• In general, I wonder if you can add a bit about Kirkandrews's name in the lead.

•  Done

• Maybe you can add a bit about climate and location, as well, in the lead. Maybe one sentence for both.

•  Partly done I've added a bit more about the location to the lead. I'm not sure what I can easily add about the climate - I give climate data from a nearby weather observation site in the article, but I don't have any sourced prose describing the local climate; interpreting the raw data and putting it into words (e.g. a cool, moist climate) feels a bit too much like OR for comfort; is there anything specific you think I should add?

• In that case, it's fine. I think the article would do well with just a mention of location in the lead. epicgenius (talk) 15:53, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• There are no shops in the hamlet, but there is an ancient churchyard with some surviving stonework from a medieval church, a listed village hall that is used for religious services and private events, and a short distance along the coast is an Iron Age dun, largely rebuilt in the early 20th century, which is a scheduled monument. - There are two things I would suggest, but they aren't required. I'd recommend splitting this into a new paragraph, and dividing the sentence into two.

•  Done I've split this up a bit and added a few more words - let me know what you think.

• Hmm, this seems to work. epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

More comments later. epicgenius (talk) 21:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Made some changes, as described above. GirthSummit _(blether) 09:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• since the early medieval period. - Is there a link to the "Early medieval period"?

•  Done

Name

• from that of its ruined medieval church, but the history of the church's dedication is not clear. - Not an issue, but I think the "Kirk" part of the name comes from the word for "church", if I remember correctly.

• Yes - kirk is Scots for church. It's which Andrew it's named after which is rather vexed - if I'm honest, I think the Northumbrian/Irish saint stuff is folklore, but at least one modern work still states it as fact. Most modern scholarship seems to go with it being a later naming for the apostle.

• George Chalmers however, in his account of Scottish history Caledonia, indicates that it was named for the apostle St Andrew, the patron saint of Scotland, - Would it make sense to split this to a new paragraph?

•  Done

• apostle St Andrew - I suggest rewording this to prevent consecutive links, per Wikipedia:SEAOFBLUE

•  Done

• and R. C. Reid, a fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland, argued that the original name of the church must have been lost because the prefix 'Kirk' is not one that would have been used at the time when Ionian monks were active in the area. - I would suggest splitting the bit about Reid to its own sentence. Maybe combine it with the next sentence too.

•  Done

Location

• No issues.

Climate

• considerably higher than Kirkandrews which is around 10 metres (33 ft) above sea level - I suggest splitting this to another sentence; the rest of it seems to be discussing Dundrennan's location. Or maybe moving this bit to "Location" (which would then have to be renamed "Geography").

•  Done Sentence split, sections merged as suggested

History

• in the form of is a 1st-century BCE dun - typo

•  Done

• This structure, shows signs of reuse in the late first millennium - The comma may be unnecessary.

•  Done

• coastline to the north-west, south west Scotland, etc. - The intercardinal directions should be consistently formatted. Either use hyphens, spaces, or nothing in between.

•  Done

• and another one some miles away - I suppose "one" would be unnecessary here, i.e. "and another some miles away"

•  Done

• brother to Ralph de Champaign, constable of Roxburgh Castle. - I think this can be rephrased or condensed somewhat, e.g. "brother to Roxburgh Castle's constable Ralph de Champaign". The reason I mention this is because of the use of two commas, which may seem to signify that "brother to Ralph de Champaign" is a parenthetical or clarifying phrase.

•  Done

• the earthworks of which stronghold survive - "Stronghold" would also be unnecessary because the word was previously mentioned in the previous phrase.

•  Done

• It passed to his son, also named Robert, and then to his daughter Margaret and her husband, Bernard de Rippelay, a Northumbrian nobleman - I would reword this too because the last two commas also may be interpreted as a clarifying phrase. E.g. "and her husband, a Northumbrian nobleman named Bernard de Rippelay".

•  Done

• and go on to explain that it previously been a centre of smuggling but that customs officers had seized all the village's boats and broken up the racket, leaving the inhabitants with no means of making an income - First, I would consider whether to make this its own sentence. Second, are you able to narrow down the period when this was a smuggling hub?

•  Partly done I've split it into a separate sentence. The source doesn't let me expand on the timeframes unfortunately - they are vague on this.

• No worries. epicgenius (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• all in a distinctive and unusual style - any specific style?

• One or two of the guidebooks refer to it as the Coo Palace style, but I'm not sure that our readers would be able to make much of that. It really is very idiosyncratic. I could add some verbiage about it being principally Gothic Revival, with elements of/influenced by Arts and Crafts and Art Nouveau, if you think that wouldn't be too cumbersome?

• Yeah, I think that would work, adding a few words about these architectural styles. epicgenius (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Let me know what you think.

• Looks good. epicgenius (talk) 15:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• include a folly known as the Toy Fort,[32] Corseyard Farm, a dairy built to resemble a large castle tower,[33] and within Kirkandrews itself a village hall known as Kirkandrews Kirk.[34] - Since this is a serial list with a comma within the list item, I would change the commas after "Toy Fort" and "castle tower" to semicolons.

•  Done

More later. epicgenius (talk) 15:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks - I've done most of this, but see a couple of comments above. GirthSummit _(blether) 17:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Courtesy ping to Epicgenius - I think I've addressed all your points so far. Please continue the review at your own pace, not wanting to pressure you, just wanted to make sure you'd seen the latest changes. Cheers GirthSummit _(blether) 20:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Girth Summit, no problem. I'll finish off this review either later today or tomorrow, since I am currently at work. epicgenius (talk) 20:15, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks - sorry to disturb you at work! GirthSummit _(blether) 20:17, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Kirkandrews today

• The first building the road comes to is Kirkandrews Kirk - "the road comes to" is somewhat awkward in this context. Would it be better to say something like "the road approaches" or "the road passes"?
• "Arts and Crafts" is a duplicate link.
• and since Lance Corporal Francis James Elms, who died in October 1918 during First World War, is buried there, the churchyard is registered as a Commonwealth War Grave. - Not a big issue, but "since" can mean one of two things here: "because of", or "from the time that". It may be good to change this to "because".
• It is built on a rocky promontory, with inner and outer walls, it is the only known example in Galloway of this type of structure, which is more common in Argyll and the Outer Hebrides. - this is a run-on sentence. It could probably be split after "inner and outer walls", or the comma after that phrase can be turned into a semicolon.
• The outer wall, roughly 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) thick, encloses an area of 39 metres (128 ft) by 20 metres (66 ft), with entrances to the north-east and south-east. The inner enclosure is approximately 18 metres (59 ft) by 11 metres (36 ft), and there are steps up to the top of the walls in the north east corner - there are inconsistencies in whether the intercardinal directions are spaced or hyphenated.

That's it for prose. I'll take a look at the refs next. epicgenius (talk) 15:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Epicgenius, thanks - agree with all of your points, all  Done. GirthSummit _(blether) 16:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

POV and coverage

I didn't see significant issues here. The article seems to be focused on the main aspects of the topic, and neutrally presented. epicgenius (talk) 16:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

References

• Formatting is good.
• All of the references seem to be from reliable sources.
• None of the statements seem explicitly unsourced.

Spot checks (optional):

• 3 - offline
• 4 - offline
• 9 - checks out
• 14 - both usages check out
• 34 - both usages check out
• 41 - offline

Since a lot of the references are offline, and since this is intended to be lighter touch than FAC, I'm going to AGF on these references. But the online ones I checked are verifiable. epicgenius (talk) 16:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Images and copyright

• Images are appropriately licensed.
• There are no copyright violations that I can detect.

General comments

• Although this article was created within the past week, it has one primary author. I would thus consider this article to be stable. epicgenius (talk) 21:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

All of the above issues have been resolved, so I think this meets the Good Article criteria now. epicgenius (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Epicgenius, brilliant! Thanks for your speedy responses and very thorough review - much appreciated. GirthSummit _(blether) 16:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Citation

The following statement from the article is not supported by footnote appended to it:

n the 13th century, the barony of Kirkandrews was granted to Robert de Champaign, brother to the constable of Roxburgh Castle Ralph de Champaign. Robert ruled the area from a substantial nearby stronghold, the earthworks of which survive and are known as Roberton Motte.[20]

Footnote 20 links to a Canmore entry that in no way supports the notion that Roberton Motte can be attribute to Robert de Champaign. The full entry at that link is :

Event ID 725631 Category Descriptive Accounts Type Archaeology Notes Permalink http://canmore.org.uk/event/725631

NX64NW 3 6036 4857. (NX 6036 4857) Roberton Moat (NR). OS 6" map (1957)

This motte rises abruptly from the SE bank of the Pulwhirrin Burn. Its lower portion is apparently rock, on top of which the motte has been made up and levelled, rising 18-20' above the bottom of a surrounding ditch. The summit is roughly oblong in shape, measuring 91' E-W by 44' transversely. From the side of the burn on the NE and some 6' above the water, a deep trench, partially rock-cut, carries round the hillock to the opposite side, about 10' deep below the counterscarp, and 40-50' wide across the top. At the SE angle, a hollow leads up out of this ditch to the higher level.

RCAHMS 1914, visited 1911; R W Feachem 1956; F R Coles 1893 Roberton Moat is a motte generally as described. The hollow in the SE angle is a later mutilation. Resurveyed at 1/2500.

Visited by OS (RD) 2 February 1971.

Can anyone find a link that supports this sentence? Comes.amanuensis (talk) 02:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)