Talk:Pyrros Dimas

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Wikipedia aims to be a valuable encyclopedic resource. A dispute about the nationality of Pyrros Dimas is a topic that may be dscussed here. However, I would expect this to be a dispute about facts as established by credible references. Please respect Wikipedia and do not post your personal opinions, enlightened or not, about Greeks and Albanians here.

Rule of thumb: If your feel your comment or edit defends a Greek or an Albanian perspective, then you shoud probably not post it. Our freedom to discuss and edit articles in Wkipedia is not there to help us ensure articles have our own prefered bias; it is for us to avoid any such bias. While a certain degree of additional freedom is afforded in talk pages, please do no abuse it. If you want to dispute or add facts and credible references that make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia, then by all means go ahead. But please read the Wikipedia guidelines first.

Miltiadis Kokkonidis (talk) 11:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons rules

Wikipedia is not here to decide what Mr Dimas is. Pyrros Dimas considers himself an ethnic Greek, being Greece's flagbearer at two Olympics, including Athens 2004. Respect his right to self-determination.

If he says he is Chinese, do we just accept it ? So give me a break.

I added a census that shows all Dhimas had Albanian Catholic names. DDo not remove it, but you may change the wording here and there.

Keep it Fake (talk) 06:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC) We must say he is white and not a mexican. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.25.139.57 (talk) 00:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's see those "Catholic" and "Albanian" names.

When Dhimas was born Himara was part of Albania. Place of birth should be written city followed by the country of the time of birth, not a geographical and historical region such as Epirus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.221.201 (talk) 13:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

As the article states he was born in Albania but is of Greek descent, just as Naim Suleymanoglu was born in Bulgaria but is of Turkish descent. There is a substantial Greek minority in southern Albania mainly in cities like Himara, Korce, Saranda and others. Kalambaki2 13:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Albania has a small Greek minority when we took in your communist Greeks after your civil war, whether or not Pirro Dhima was a Greek or not is unimportant, he was born in Albania and thats where he grew up. He only migrated to Greece in order to profit from weightlifting. (dr.ilir)

i have also removed your northern epirus bit because it is insulting to my people.

Insulting is also to be afraid to put down your signature. If you feel offended by the term 'North Epirus' I'm sorry, according to wiki standarts you should not. Read the NPOV sectionAlexikoua (talk) 14:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

'I'm from... ugh, let me check my passport.

Nationality in sport, once clear-cut, has become seriously muddied following the break-up of the Soviet bloc and the increasing transfer of talent from poor to rich countries. example:

Greece naturalized Albanian Pyrros Dimas in 1992 and he went on to win three Olympic weightlifting golds.Dimas born in Himara, Albania to parents of Greek origin, and emigrated to Greece in 1991.--Taulant23 00:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

References

Greek or Albanian

Has Pyrros Dimas ever called himself Albanian?

Furthermore, Albanians must really have money problems if there are 1.2 million of them in Greece (which I'm sure entered illegally), and hopefully when Greece has an Albanian president, hopeful he would have migrated legitimately and not just stroll over the border.

Lastly, yes you are correct, whatever Greece does (e.g. use names at a nationalistic level) MUST have territorial aspirations, because NO OTHER country does except Greece.

To conclude....... blah, blah, blah, blah.

Φilhellenism 06:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Greece has even more money problems "Leonidas Jr," what's your debt now, $500 Billion? Albania being poor has nothing do with his real ethnicity.

07:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs)

Why are u Greeks afraid of? Why the place where he was born make u guys afraid? Like Alesandros, wtever people can say, he fought for Greece so why does it matter so much where was he born. In Albania,Pyrros or Pirro got his education,trained hard, migrated to Greece in order to profit from weightlifting.

But Greece gave him a lot, and by the way YES, he worked hard for himself and for the name of Greece.--Taulant23 22:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Have you actually got a source about his parents being Albanian? There is a Greek minority in Southern Albania, unless you haven't been informed. I agree with the Albanian name being added to the article, after all he was born there, but the Greek parents statement stays unless you find proof. Please provide it, otherwise I'll revert it in 12h. Kalambaki2 23:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well I know his parentsa are Albanian,his mom is still in Albania.She lives in their 3 stories house--71.103.71.211 04:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

He was born in Tirana, Albania. His parents were from Himara. You can read here [3] that he was from Tirana and went to Greece when he was 20, but before he was a European Master weightlifter for Albana. sulmues --Sulmues 16:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

According to [[4]][[5]] and this [[6]][[7]] he was born in Himara. Also his official site confirms this [[8]]Alexikoua (talk) 17:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing these sources. Actually I am starting to believe that he was born in Elbasan, because that's where he did his schools. Furthermore there was an excellent team of weightlifters in Elbasan, if I remember well, Agron Haxhihyseni was from there. I give up. I think he's lying about where he was born. I just think his family came from there. And I'll tell you why I think he is lying. He was born in 1971. In that time changing residency was practically IMPOSSIBLE in Albania, so it's very unlikely that he was born in Himara. He is building his image of Greek by claiming he is born in Himara, but that is very very unlikely. However given your evidence I reverted myself and I'm ok that he is presented as being born in Himara. Please make those references better for me as I don't know any Greek. sulmues --Sulmues 18:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This is his official website and it states that he was born in Himara [9], its one of the references in the article. Is he lying?Megistias (talk) 19:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This one [[10]] says that he was born in Himara, but he grew up in Tirana. @Sulmues I really appreciate your constructive efforts here. Morevover it seems you are partly right, since Dimas lived for some years in Tirana, although not born there.Alexikoua (talk) 20:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I found an interesting interview [11] given to Klan TV on 25/02/05, but broadcasted on 25/11/09, where Pirro Dhima states that he was born in Tirane. He also says that his parents send him to his grandmother in Himare when he was 6 months old and she raised him until he was 6 years old and then he moved back to Tirane. This is the best evidence yet of his place of birth. He also says that he has taught his elder daughter Albanian. Greek or Albanian???.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuxia1 (talk • contribs) 23:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Improve this article!

There is a wikipedia photo of Pyrros here, but no matter how I tried I couldn't paste in this article. If someone could be so kind... additionally, Pyrros has a special relationship with Litohoro in Pieria... I think his wife is from there, but I'm not certain, if someone could also clarify this and add it. Thanx! This guy DESERVES a good article. Kalambaki2 18:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Well I got the pic from the article but because its in Greek it wont let me use it in this article.--Taulant23 23:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't make you fall in love with the Albanians or Greeks.

I can't make you fall in love with the Albanians or Greeks, nor can I make all of my fellow Albanians fall in love with you. But like it or not, we are FIRST COUSINS! and it's a sad thing to hate your ethnic relatives more than you hate the Slavic or Ottomans invaders.There is lots of confusion and ignorance, but things can change and I think Albanian immigrants could play a key role there.Albania and Greece are helping each other more and more these days. By the way, the albanian origin of the Arvanites or even Pyrros Dimas(Pirro Dhima) only STRENGHTENS Greek/Albanian affinity, it doesn't weaken it.--Taulant23 23:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, then they (Albanians) can apply for a visa and come to the country (Greece) legitimately, not by jumping the boarders and stilling jobs by working for a fraction of the salary, that's why there is this hostility.... they just walk into to Greece and do their on bloody ting.

Φilhellenism 06:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Pyrros is Greek, not Albanian.

Personal Best numbers are utterly wrong. None can squat more than they deadlift! Also, 330Kg squat is rediculous. Where did you get these numbers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.8.167 (talk) 07:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is it ridiculous? There are videos on youtube of Eduardo Guadamud (only 5-9 kilos heavier than Dimas) squating 310 kg x 2. And it looks easy to him. So ask yourself why wouldn't such an elite lifter like Dimas squat 330 for a 1rm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.101.94.173 (talk) 23:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Squat

Pyrros Dimas has declared in an interview that he squated 100 kg at age 7,5 years old. interview, "Ξεκίνησα να ασχολούμαι με την άρση βαρών σε ηλικία επτάμισι ετών. Είχα όμως κάτι πόδια… Την πρώτη κιόλας μέρα που πήγα στο γυμναστήριο, έκανα 100 κιλά σε βαθύ κάθισμα."Megistias (talk) 16:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

POV-pushing using bogus sources

www.ramimemushaj.com is *not* a valid source. Athenean (talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is. He is a professor at the University of Tirana. Per wp:RS scholars can be used. --sulmues (talk) 02:46, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

His Professional honors, awards, grants, etc. include the following

Tempus Grant, University of Bremen, Germany (November - December 1995)

TRNS Grant, University of Roskilde, Denmark (July - September 1993)

Fulbright Research Grant, University of California, Berkeley Campus (Sept. 1992 - May 1993)

Cited Foreign Expert, Beijing Foreign Studies University (January 1991)

The 3-rd Class "Naim Frashëri" Order, University of Tirana (1989)

The "Naim Frashëri" Medal, Vlora, Albania (1970)

The "Naim Frashëri" grant as an excellent student (1965 - 1967)

Between his positions are the following:

Editor in chief of the Journal "Studime Albanologjike" 2004~

Editor of the Journal "Studime Albanologjike" 1996 - 2004

Editor of the Journal "Gjuha Jonë" 1995 - 1998

I wish people brought some more scholars like Prof Memushaj in Wikipedia. --sulmues (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

No, go read WP:RS. To be considered RS, something needs to be published by a reputable publishing house. Self-published essays such as this one are NOT WP:RS. It will be removed. Athenean (talk) 02:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

So tell us why are those names are incorrect? They are after all in a Turkish census. Why don't you like the truth athenian? Wait until you find out about Vangjel Zhapa and Sotir Nini. We know that Pirro he has a reason to lie about his ethnicity, so we're posting the other side. If he said he was Albanian what would happen to his popularity in Greece?

Keep it Fake (talk) 03:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Removed claim about financial gains. Too personal and no scholar has ever supported that. We know it's true, but it's not encyclopedic. However the Dhima family origin is well supported. They were from Kruje and came in the 15th century to Himara. --sulmues (talk) 05:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the origin is not well supported. All you have proved is that the surname also appears on Albanian genealogical records. It doesn't actually prove that the man himself has ethnic origins other than what he himself claims. I'm sure that he is just as proud to be Greek and Albanian. But his parents are Greek. Nipsonanomhmata 06:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nipsonanomhmata (talk • contribs)

If you had read the source you'd find that not only his parents, but also his grandparents, greatgrandparents and so on up to the 16th century at least were Albanians. The source investigates the last name of Dhima in Himare specifically. The Dhima house as many other houses in Himare are from Kruje and Mirdita and have come to settle there when Skanderbeg died. --sulmues (talk) 05:00, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

You were explicitly told on the BLP noticeboard that since the source doesn't specifically mention Pyrros Dimas, it shouldn't be used and anything in it is irrelevant. So stop disrupting and pretending like nothing happened. Athenean (talk) 07:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Per Manual of Style the lead paragraph is wrong

You are getting many IP address changes and they are not that wrong. Many people feel offended when they read this article and Wikipedia rightly has very good policies in this regard.

Currently the article is reading as follows:

Pyrros Dimas (Greek: Πύρρος Δήμας born in October 13, 1971) is a Greek weightlifter and three-time Olympic champion.

Very good, no one is lying there. No one is saying he does not hold a Greek passport. But there is a problem: This is against the Wikipedia policy here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph. According to this policy for Nationality & ethnicity normally the article lead should state in the normal case the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.

Let's take them one by one.

1. The country of which the person is citizen: Pirro Dhima has a double nationality, both Albanian and Greek, so the article should say Greek-Albanian or Albanian-Greek, rather than simply Greek. Pirro Dhima still has his Albanian passport and has not given up his citizenship: Has properties in Albania and is a both a full Albanian and Greek citizen, in other words he has dual citizenship.
2. Was a citizen when the person became notable: Pirro Dhima became notable in Albania. As stated in the Victories_with_Albania section, as per "this version" he was already famous when he was a European Master as awarded by the European Weightlifting Federation, in addition he was part of the Albanian National Team which placed 3rd in Europe (after URSS and Bulgaria) in the 69th Evropean Weightlifting Championship (in Alborg, Denmark May 1990) and 2nd (after 1st placed Bulgaria) for the European Cup for nations (in Antalia, Turkey, December 1990). He had also been vicechampion of the World for Juniors. Pirro Dhima when he became famous was Albanian and held no Greek citizenship. So if we follow the second criterion, we should say that he was Albanian.

To my fellow editors to pick whether we should say Albanian or Albanian-Greek. Ethnicity should be mentioned in the opening paragraph as it is important for the subject's notability, but right after citizenship which has to either be stated as Albanian or as Albanian-Greek.

Thank you!--sulmues (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I'll change the article as per above if no one will respond here in the talk page. --sulmues (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

As I see the arguments aren't enough for this change. Actually that fact that he was born in Albania is already mentioned in the main text. About the lead:

• His athletic achievements as part of the Albanian team were nothing related to the ones with the Greek team: this is obvious just by checking the userbox: 4 Olympics, 4 World Championships, 4 European Championships: All of this happened after 1991 when he renounced Albanian citizenship.
• As per MOS [[12]]: "Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Since with Albania there were zero medals both in Olympics and World Championships (and they were plenty after 1991) the current lead is the most appropriate and should stay.Alexikoua (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

He never gave up the Albanian citizenship. For Albanian laws he is still an Albanian citizen. He holds both passports. He acquired the Greek passport in 1992 when he was 21 as the article says. He was given that passport just before the Olympic games of Barcelona.

But even admitting and not conceding that he had given up his Albanian citizenship, this would be utterly irrelevant, becuse per wp:athlete, you are notable when you are the member of a national team, and PD had been a full member of the Albanian national team for at least two years (1989-1991), and had extraordinary achievements, worthy of giving him notability before he took the Greek citizenship. I will cite per wp:athlete are notable:

People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis, except for those that participated only in competitions that are themselves non-notable.

As a result I propose that we have the following lead:

PD is one of the greatest weightlifters of all times. He is a World Champion and an Olympic Champion. PD was born in Albania and holds both Greek and Albanian citizenships. He is of Greek ethnicity.

I think that is balanced and respects MOS. --sulmues (talk) 01:01, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Since no one answered in the last three months, I made the change and I really think it's NPOV. May both the Albanians and the Greeks enjoy and remember Pirro's victories (not in the classical sense, :-)). --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 22:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Your edits are highly POV and I have reverted them. They were nothing more than an exercise in trying to cram the word "Albanian" as many times in the lead as possible. To say that he was born in Albania in the "Early life" section is quite sufficient. His victories with Albania are minor, what makes him famous are his three Olympic gold. The fact that your proposal was ignored does not mean it was accepted. Quite the opposite in fact. I also note you took care to remove his nationality (Greek) from the lead, which is against MOSBIO. The previous nationality should not be included, but the current nationality should. Athenean (talk) 00:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I also removed this [13]. This is a a self-published website, and not a reliable source. The rest of the material sourced to this websites I will also remove, unless a better source can be found. Athenean (talk) 00:57, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

The typical wp:or concert and obsession to put the word Albanian in lead. Moreover the Albanian alternative is completely against wp:mos.Alexikoua (talk) 05:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

@Athenean. You don't seem to follow wp:athlete and don't seem to understand my reasoning. I demonstrated you that he was notable already when he had no Greek citizenship, simply as a member of the Albania's National Weightlifting Team. As a result, I will tag the article with POV for now and I expect you to go deeper in reading what I wrote, understand it, understand WP:ATHLETE and then revert yourself. The case is complex, but my version is the closest to Wikipedia's policies. I will also remind you of the comment of User:A Stop at Willoughby on this matter.
In addition, please remove yourself with [this edit. The source is highly reliable and it's coming from Giovanni Armillotta, a professor in the University of Pisa, Italy, who fanatically follows Albanian sports since 1970 and comments on them on Italian and Albanian periodicals. In addition that was published in the Futbolli Magazine newspaper, so I really have no clue what more reliable sources you would want.
@Alexikoua. There is no OR, everything is properly sourced as I explained above. If any OR writing was made, it was from Athenean who added that Pirro is named after Pyrrus of Epirus, not sourcing that. Pirro is a very common name in Albania. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 22:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

"If any OR writing was made, it was from Athenean who added that Pirro is named after Pyrrus of Epirus, not sourcing that. Pirro is a very common name in Albania." i removed that because it was unnecessary really...but obviously albanian pirro comes from greek pyrrhos and is used in albania to commemorate the king..87.202.28.74 (talk) 01:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

obsession

1. Why so much obsession adding an Albanian alternative name, while we have been several times concluded as per mos: Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. Just taking a brief look at his userbox, there is no major achievement that can support this. We have to be precise on our arguments.
2. Since we have plenty of english sources on the subject, the non-english source should be removed, as per Wikipedia:Verify#Non-English_sources: Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material.Alexikoua (talk) 20:30, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Took it off from the lead and placed it under Background. Changed the lead since no one said no to my argument. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 22:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

An obsession alright, especially this [14]. Why should this be mentioned so prominently in the lead where he was born, when it is evidently mentioned right below, and is moreover not that important? The place of birth is generally not mentioned in biography articles right in the second sentence of the lead. The way it is worded is also highly POV and is unmistakably tendentious. Athenean (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Nope, it is consistent with MOS and WP:ATHLETE but it seems like you disagree with this Wikipolicies. In the lead we should always have the nationality WHEN NOTABLE. He was notable in 1989 when part of the Albanian National Team, deal with it. At that time, there was no Greek nationality for Dhima. You say that he became famous when he competed for Greece. Probably he became famous for you, for me he was already famous in 1987. For Wiki policies he became famous in 1989 when part of the Albania National Weightlifting team, second in Europe. You are going against wiki rules, although I suggested a very good solution to mention both nationalities in the lead. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 00:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Your definition of notability is strange. According to you, merely participating in the Albanian national team as a teenager is enough to make one notable. The world does not revolve around Albania. Every significant international victory he ever won was with the Greek colors. What you are doing is classic WP:LAWYERing, misinterpreting the guidelines and playing word games with them to suit your POV. You have been disrupting this article for months. So if anyone needs to "deal with it", it's you. I'm not going to put up much more with this disruption. Athenean (talk) 00:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

That definition of notability isn't strange at all. His performance in the Albanian team was enough that it would have established notability (in Wikipedia terms) all by itself – i.e. if he had stopped his career in 1990, we would still have an article on him today. Sulmues is applying WP:ATHLETE correctly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

guys..first i dont understand whats wrong with including the albanian form of his name in the intro since the article clearly says that he hails from the greek community of himare. actually mentioning it like that is preferable since 'born pirro dhima' can be understood in a number of ways from 'thats how his papers called him' to 'thats how his parents called him'. no need to turn everything into a battleground...my opinion is either intro (preferable) or not at all87.202.63.171 (talk) 00:59, 14 June 2010 (UTC) and sulmues please dont make such comments about living people who are featured on wiki..87.202.63.171 (talk) 01:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

(ec) That's not the issue, the issue is that tendentious little sentence added by Sulmues, and his very strange concept of notability. Athenean (talk) 01:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll consider IP's intervention as an impromptu Third Opinion and leave it there. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 01:06, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

'He still conserves Tirana's accent in his speech'?87.202.63.171 (talk) 01:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

That's what the title of the article says. And yes, he spent all his first 21 years only in one city, Tirana, Albania. Added also that he started the sport at 11 and at 14 he started to compete at a juniores level. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 01:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Sulmues, this arguments is pathetic. At the same fashion we should add in Ismail Qemali and the Frasheries Greek alternatives in their lead names, since they lived many years in Ioannina and were subject to Greek studies.Alexikoua (talk) 05:40, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprized at your lack of knowledge of Greece. Janina was not Greek when Qemali and the Frasheris were brought up. It became part of Greece much later. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 10:28, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Ali Demi for example was a Greek national all his life. His is still Albanian.But according to your definition he is completely Greek. Alexikoua (talk) 11:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sulmues, please keep sources like parasja.com and albaniasite.net out of this article, and wikipedia as whole. You should know full well by know that such websites are not reliable sources, and their repeated use of them by you is becoming disruptive. I would really rather spend my time doing other things than cleaning up stuff like that. Thank you. Athenean (talk) 04:19, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

@Alexi: Ali Demi? As far as I am concerned you can make him Greek if you find sources. @Athenean: It's not my fault that Pirro Dhima doesn't give interviews on NPR to Charlie Rose but to Parajsa. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 01:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Stop trolling. This obsession needs to stop. Pyrros Dimas has Greek nationality and won all his awards with that nationality. Per MOSBIO, the former nationality only goes in the lead if it relates to the subject's notability. This is not the case here. And what's with adding Pirro Dhima twice (and in bold no less)? Exactly zero English language sources refer to him by that name. So maybe it could appear elsewhere, but not the first line of the lede. Athenean (talk) 02:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

you guys arent happy with anything eh..? you either have to remove everything per athenean or add aaanything per sulmues...87.202.33.34 (talk) 02:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The article was perfectly stable before Sulmues started messing with it. He's been at it for months now. They guy is Greek by any yardstick (nationality, ethnicity, you name it), yet here we are again for the umpteenth time. This has got to stop. Athenean (talk) 02:41, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

i agree with you but a mention of the albanian form of his name and the additions about his early performance dont seem to be that harmful..but honestly i dont know what wikirules per future perfect above say87.202.33.34 (talk) 02:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Let me be more precise, an Albanian alt. form is useless according to Dimas and contrary to wp:mosbio. Not everyone that was born in country X needs neccesarily an X born name alternative in their 1st line. I can name dozens of Albanians born out of Albania that haven't an alt. name in their lead (Ali Demi or even Fan Noli's born name isn't in lead for example, obviously it's no need to adopt double-standarts in this policy).Alexikoua (talk) 07:32, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but Fan Noli became notable with that name. Ali Demi became notable with that name. Pirro Dhima per WP:Athlete became notable in 1989 with his Albanian name Pirro Dhima as part of the Albanian weightlifting national team. You seem to forget that. You also seem to forget that an admin, FPS, is endorsing my reasoning. Per wp:mosbio: "previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Pirro Dhima became notable as part of the national team of Albania in weightlifting in 1989 per wp:athlete, so it is important to the subject's notability. Thank you and please revert to my version, unless you have anything smart to say. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 17:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Once again you are completely misreading the guidelines. Pyrros Dimas is notable because he is a weightlifter, not because he formerly had Albanian nationality. I don't see how the fact the he formerly competed with Albania is relevant to his notability. What is relevant to his notability are the medals he has won. And please remain civil and indent your comments. Athenean (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I offended anyone. I am not misreading the guidelines, actually you seem to not understand wp:athlete. Dhima is not notable because he is a weightlifter. There are a lot of weightlifters who are not notable. There are in fact lots of athletes who are not notable and cannot have an article in Wikipedia. In order to be a notable athlete you have to have competed at a professional level, or you have to represent a national team, or both, no matter how many medals you win. According to that Pirro Dhima gained notability in 1989 when at 18 he was part of the Albanian national team. Unless anyone disagrees I will revert to my neutral version in a couple of days. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:50, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

As I know and as the current lead says he was multiple times World Champion and Olympic winner (this is what makes him notable today). If he was at least once distinguished as such under the Albanian team this could be added on lead (but he wasn't). Alexikoua (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

As I explained to you already Alexi, [15], you are not notable only if you are a World Champion or Olympic champion, but if you are part of a national team which participates in the World Championship. Per Wiki policies Pirro Dhima gained notability in 1989, not when he became world champion under the Greek flag. How hard is it to understand this? WP:Athlete is only 5 lines long.--_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 00:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Please do not misinterpret wiki policies to support your pov. A multiple times european, world champion & olympic winner is notable because of this and obviously only this. Of course if he stopped his career at 1991 his notability would be completely different and he would still have his own article (as Fut. noticed).Alexikoua (talk) 07:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Alexi, don't tweak things. You are not making sense. On one had you state that you are notable because a champion, on the other you say that you are notable, but you are not that notable. FPS stated that I am right. If we agree that he was notable in 1989, then we have to state his nationality at the time when he was first notable and I go ahead and put my lead as follows. If you disagree, bring the version here in the talk page.

Pyrros Dimas (Greek: Πύρρος Δήμας, Albanian: Pirro Dhima born in October 13, 1971) is a retired professional weightlifter. He is considered as one of the greatest weightlifters of all times having been three times Olympic champion and three times World Champion. Dimas was born in Albania and competed first for the Albanian team, however he is of Greek ethnicity and received his major sports results under the Greek flag after he emigrated to Greece in 1992.

Your lead is nothing more than yet another tendentious attempt to get rid of the word "Greek" from the lead sentence. This is deep into WP:TE territory. I also note you are using two web-sites as a "sources" for the fact that he was born in Albania, that way it will make the fact that he is "Albanian" (in your eyes) more prominent. Absolutely not. The lead is fine as is. You've been at it for months, stop it. Athenean (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That I have been for months with this is not an argument. I'll be doing it until you understand WP:Athlete. All I want is to say in the lede that he had Albanian nationality when he became notable to mirror Wiki policies, as I have stated earlier. You are ignoring FPS and becoming disruptive. We may ask for a third opinion that is not from the Balkan areas. If you agree to this lead, fine, otherwise I'll have to bring it to the Content noticeboard. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 22:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why it is absolutely necessary to mention that he was born in Albania in the lead, since that is mentioned immediately below. It is redundant. I also don't see why his name in Albanian should be included in the lead, since exactly zero English language sources refer to him by that name. The entire world minus Albania knows him as "Pyrros Dimas". Lastly, I don't appreciate attempts to remove his nationality (Greek) from the lead sentence, as it is a POV-motivated disservice to our readers. It is important for our readers to know which team he competes for. Athenean (talk) 22:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm albanian. this is what lennox lewis has got "Lennox Claudius Lewis, CM, CBE (born September 2, 1965) is a retired boxer and the most recent Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion. He holds dual British and Canadian citizenship. As an amateur he won gold representing Canada at the 1988 Olympic Games after defeating future World Heavyweight Champion Riddick Bowe in the final." Keeping it fair and square.

References

Moved to Pirro Dhima.

Moved to Pirro Dhima. Gained notability with this name, so that's what matters. Let me know if you disagree. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC) He was a notable world class weightlifter way prior the year when he emigrated to Greece: as the article shows, he was in the team that brought Albania to second place in Europe. Since his Greek name may be more diffused from Wikipedia based sources, saying that there are more sources with the Greek name is illogical. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I've moved it back, since such a move needs a concensus. If someone believes that a move is needed here it's better to make a move proposal, or at least open discussion (none of the above was done here).Alexikoua (talk) 16:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Background

Athenean, I do appreciate your efforts but I dont see how describing a region of Albania as "Northern Epirus" is in any way relevant to Pirro Dhima (he himself has not been quoted saying that his birth place is Northern Epirus). What is relevant is his place of birth and his ethnicity. It is well documented that he is of Greek ethnicity and that he was born in Albania. As i have said before: Wikipedia's policy in using historically appropriate names. That means his "official" birthplace is Himare, Albania (full stop). There should be no Prefixes or Suffixes to his birthplace; such as Himare, southern Albania (Northern Epirus).

I also feel that a description of a region of Albania (such as in the current version [16]) is not at all relevant to the article. The explanation of the region should be removed (if people are interested in his birthplace and ethnicity then they can check the Himare and ethnic Greeks pages).

If Pirro Dhima himself has declared that his birth place was "Northern Epirus" then that would be a different matter as we would be reporting on his own perspective. He has not done that yet, but instead, he has stated that he was in Tirane[17] {his first interview to an Albanian TV channel (TV Klan)} and there is this [18] which has already been used numerous times in this article (surprisingly the Tirane bit has been overlooked) that backs the Tirane birthplace. I think that this needs a mention in the articles as its his take on his life and after all we are reporting on his life. kuxia1 22:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuxia1 (talk • contribs)

There has been a long established consensus with Greek and Albanian editors: if a Greek is born in Northern Epirus this should be mentioned as an alt. name, same way with an Albanian born in Chameria.Alexikoua (talk) 06:58, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The term "Northern Epirus"

I would like to compare the issue of the use of the above term to the term "Western Thrace". It is well known that Thrace is not a region belonging exclusively to Greece or Turkey but one that spreads across Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria. The terms Western Thrace and Eastern Thrace are mutually accepted by Greece and Turkey since they are mentioned in treaties such as the Lausanne Treaty. It is also known that historically all parts of Thrace have been inhabited by both muslims and christians (although there are not christians anymore in turkish E.Thrace). Even if Greek Thrace is often refered to by Greeks as simply "Thraki" (Thrace), any educated person knows that "Thraki" is not all Thrace.

A similar situation applies to Epirus. It is illogical to believe that the historical region of Epirus ends exactly where the borders were agreed to be in 1914, although Greece officialy names one of its peripheries Epirus (not Southern Epirus). In reality, the southern part (including the most significant city Ioannina) was ceded to Greece whereas the northern part was ceded to Albania and thus became known as "Northern Epirus". The term "Northern Epirus" is mutually accepted by Albania and Greece, since the signing of the Protocol of Corfu between the Albanian Gorverment and the Provisional Government of Northern Epirus (which represented the local greek population) in 1914. The use of the term, even today is not necessary to have an irredentist sense, just a geographical one.

All in all, official (nowadays) or not, widely used or usually avoided, Northern Epirus (including Himara) is a mutually accepted term while the local Greeks in Albania, concetrated in the South, connect closely themeselves to the region of Epirus and they are self determined as "northern Epirotes". Concequently, there is no reason for Northern Epirus not to be cited as birthplace of Pyrros Dimas, an etnic Greek from Himara, without notes or explanations. All evidence show the oppposite.

P.S.The phrase in the article "Himarë, Albania, part of an area referred to [only] by Greeks as Northern Epirus" seems be misleading, leading someone to believe that Albania does not accept or/and has never accepted this term.

Routhramiotis

Ρουθραμιώτης (talk) 18:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Pirro Dhima is not a Greek!!

Pirro Dhima is a Greek because he decided to be a Greek not because he is a Greek. In the same position like him was also Mirela Manjani or Luan Shabani but they never denied their Albanian origin like Pirro did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.6.254 (talk) 14:15, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Typical albanian ultra-nationalistic propaganda. Unlike Manjani and possibly Sabani who are Albanians, Dimas is member of the Greek minority of Albania. Pavlos1988 (talk) 02:13, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh, you must also know that Pyrros Dimas' father, Viktoras, in 2007 Greek election, was a candidate of the conservative, patriotic and a little bit nationalistic party Democratic Revival. Από την ίδια κατηγορία των «συγγενών αστέρων» άντλησε και ο πρόεδρος της Δημοκρατικής Αναγέννησης κ. Στέλιος Παπαθεμελής την υποψηφιότητα του πατέρα του ολυμπιονίκη κ. Πύρρου Δήμα, Βίκτωρα. Pavlos1988 (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Name

If the Greek spelling of his name given in this article is correct, the english translation should be Pyrros Deimas, not Pyrros Dimas !Tvx1 (talk) 19:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

P. Dimas from N. Epirus/S. Albania

The article deals with a biography & the person comes from a historical-cultural region which is defined by the specific community he belongs as N. Epirus. I see no reason for censorship in this case. Greek communities including Dimas declare that they come from the specific region, thus there is no reason to get rid of this essential detail for this article.Alexikoua (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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Northern Epirus nationalist term but Chameria not?

This declaration appears to be fully wp:POV. Both terms are used in the same irredentist context but also both of the have it's historical side. Claiming that the one is more correct in historic context isn't cool and it's actually POV pushing. In the case of P. Dimas he has declared himself as N.Epirote. It's a Greek ethno/geographic term and it's widely used in this context (like Pontic Greek etc). Pardon me but there is no offence at all if someone declares himself as being part of the specific community in this way.Alexikoua (talk) 22:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Northern Epirotes is not the equivalent of Pontic Greeks. The equivalent term and the common name is Greeks in Albania. Ahmet Q. (talk) 13:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

N.Epirus is a geographic/historic region such as Pontus, Ionia etc, although not part of Greece, Greek communities that live(d) there used to be classified based on those regions. The same occurs with Albanian communities too.Alexikoua (talk) 00:26, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, so even after multiple editors explained it to you it seems that you still don't get it. I will repeat it: N. Epirus is a political and irredentist concept. It is absolutely not a historical region. Ahmet Q. (talk) 00:33, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

You still believe that the quality of the argument that Chameria = historic vs N. Epirus = irredentist is neutral? That's actually the very definition of Balkan nationalism (and vice versa). You need to back your arguments based on wp:RS.Alexikoua (talk) 01:37, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

He is right. Northern Epirus is nothing but a political term. The article itself says that. Chameria is a ethnolinguistic, cultural, historic term. It does not change its borders depending on how much of it is owned by what country. The same can not be said for NE. Please, I have explained this to you in detail many times. Why are you still comparing the two? Alltan (talk) 17:50, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@Alltan, you are recycling the Albanian POV about Northern Epirus. Northern Epirus in Greek context is a region like Asia Minor, Pontus etc. We need to be neutral in this project.Alexikoua (talk) 02:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Let me be more precise, since this turns to somewhat into wp:FRINGE, [[19]] As with Macedonia and Thrace, the traditional and historic area of Epirus extends beyond the border of Greece, into neighboring Albania directly to the north. In what Greeks call "Northern Epirus' (which is known to the Albanians as southern Albania), as such should be no taboo by using historic/geographic terms like the above. I understand that in Albania this is rejected but we should secure wp:NPOV in its use.Alexikoua (talk) 02:24, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

[[20]] (Gregoric) The widest geographical and historical region of Northern Epirus is considered to consist of Southern Albania. As such we have to admit that those are geographic/historical regions. If we can't accept this concept that we are into deep wp:POV territory.Alexikoua (talk) 02:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

N.E. is used in all mainstream bibliography and not exclusively in political context [[21]] but also in terms of history and culture (Kitromilides) "The Greek minority in southern Albania, or Northern Epirus, has been an important base of Greek culture in the Balkans,". The use of the terms southern Albania/Northern Epirus is widely mentioned in bibliography. As such we have no reason to hide this piece of information under the context of an ethnic Greek from this region.Alexikoua (talk) 02:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

You have already been thoroughly explained in different pages that Chameria is a distinct region in terms of geography, culture, language, music, dances, food, etc. The irredentist aspect exists on top of these. But even the irredentist term only refers to the lands of the Cham Albanians, not those of the Albanians from Janina, W.Macedonia, etc, who are not Chams but simply Tosks. Meanwhile Northern Epirus attempts to group Greeks of different regions into one strictly irredentist/political concept. You know this very well so stop enforcing fictional concepts on articles. Çerçok (talk) 06:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Meanwhile Northern Epirus attempts to group Greeks of different regions into one strictly irredentist/political concept. It appears that the same occurs with Chameria which also is part of various subregions (Filiates, Parakalamos, Paramythythia etc.). That's your personal claim and its wp:OR. You know very well that you are recycling the Albanian wp:POV by pushing Chameria terminology against N.Epirus (also a region in terms of geography, culture, language, music, dances, food, etc, with the addition of a short term independent entity in political terms) . Both terms are dealt under the same Balkan context in scholarship. That's called neutrality and we should respect it in wikipedia too.Alexikoua (talk) 23:59, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Albanians from Filat, Paramithi, Gumenice, Konispol, etc. are culturally similar to each other and less similar to Albanians from other sub-regions, including for example from Konice, Janine or Vlore. Read here about the dialect for example: http://dialects.albanianlanguage.net/. These are simple facts, independent of the political situation. Meanwhile Greeks from Dropull with those of Pogoni have nothing in common other than they are members of the Greek minority in Albania. Northern Epirote is fiction. Çerçok (talk) 00:28, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

By virtue of living in Albania for over 100 years, including total isolation in the Communist era, the Greeks of Albania have a distinct identity and culture from the Greeks of Greece. Khirurg (talk) 02:37, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Pogoni and Dropuli share several cultural features (dances, folksinging etc.) they also have the same idiom. Off course they are not identical in all cultural aspects (same occurs among Cham Albanian, folk costumes for example) I don't know why you are into this kind of wp:POV. Alexikoua (talk) 02:51, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't see what that has to do with Northern Epirus. Alltan (talk) 08:58, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Thats WP:OR and will have to be demonstrated over at the Northern Epirus article. Alltan (talk) 08:57, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Greeks in this region self-identify as Northern Epirotes. Removing this in the context of a biography of an ethnic Greek is wp:POV.Alexikoua (talk) 02:07, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

His birthplace is very clearly stated, Himara, Albania. His parents' Greek ethnicity is also clearly stated. There is no room to insert political ideology and irredentism here. Çerçok (talk) 00:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Northern Epirus as a Greek cultural and historic area should be stated. Under this context its removal is considered wp:DISRUPTION. Cercok: can you elaborate why this is irrelevant (initiatives by Dimas on the Northern Epirote issue)?Alexikoua (talk) 00:27, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

His activity can be included somewhere in the article. Irredentism has not place in a statement of the birthplace. Çerçok (talk) 08:14, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Dimas is a involved in human&minority rights related to the Northern Epirus issue. Removals of sourced content constitute wp:DISRUPTION [[22]], not to mention aggressive edit summaries [[23]]. In fact Dimas has a quite active participation on the N.E. issue this definitely needs further expansion. Cercok: Simply pushing your extreme national POV simply falls to wp:WHATWIKIPEDIAISNOT.Alexikoua (talk) 03:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

It is extreme national POV to leave political activity for sections below the lead in a biography article. You should stop forcing politically fabricated terms into articles. Çerçok (talk) 10:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

He is an active politician and information related to his political activity (as a Northern Epirus activist) should be part of the article. Extreme national POV? I assume you need to take a deep breath since those parts are sourced by reliable news portals.Alexikoua (talk) 03:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry but if you want to include an obviously nationalistic and irredentist term in an article about living persons, you will need in the minimum to achieve consensus for that. Please, start a discussion on why you believe nationalistic terms are to be included in this article. Ahmet Q. (talk) 07:04, 10 October 2022 (UTC)