Talk:Semper fidelis

L'viv Motto?

Was semper fidelis restored as the motto of todays L'viv?

I wondered about that, too, because it is most often referred to in historical documents, with the Latin name of the city ("Leopolis semper fidelis"). However, a couple of current web documents (one from the Vatican) apply it to modern L'viv. Maybe we should just email the city information office and ask. BTW, does anyone know the date when this motto became associated with L'viv? it would be sensible to arrange the users of the motto in date order on the page, but I have no idea whether L'viv's use is earlier or more recent than Exeter's - though we do have the date of the latter. seglea 10:13, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The date of the motto comes from 1658 when pope Alexander VII used the expression describing its heroic defense against constant attacks by infidels, in Poland it's generally used to refer to the times of the Polish-Bolshevik War.

And Polish-Ukrainian War as well...Halibutt

The motto of the Spanish Tercios was always "Semper Fidelis" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.3.240.3 (talk) 21:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Devonshire

Who are the Devonshire regiment? All it says is that they're known as the 11th... 205.174.22.28 02:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Can we delete this question? The Devonshire Regiment can be pretty easily discovered here on Wikipedia at Devonshire_Regiment Nickmason1973 (talk) 09:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The Castle

Common on the arms of cities; see Hamburg, for instance (http://fhh.hamburg.de/stadt/Aktuell/senat/service/wappen/start.html). Thus not coincidence, because the castle represents a city. Often the crest above civic arms is a mural crown (looks like wall with battlements).

Spanish-speaking countries are very fond of civic appellations as "Muy Noble y Muy Leal," generally given by a sovreign in appreciation of loyalty in times of civil strife. Alfonxo X praised Seville as loyal: "No me han dejado" ("they did not abandon me") and so the civic arms show skein of yarn (madeja; it looks like an elongated figure 8) between the words "No Do," making a rebus of the king's praise.

Ordering the page

This page has been re-ordered several times, I suspect with enthusiasts for each of the owners of the motto wanting to put "their" organisation first. Could I plead that we adopt some consistent policy, and that it be ordering by date of acquisition, which is at least objective? However I can quite see that enthusiasts for the US Marines might not like their Corps being buried under historic cities, so I have put in some headings to force up a Table of Contents in the hope of keeping everyone reasonably happy.

On a second point, shouldn't the full words of the song go into Wikisource?

seglea 20:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

How is "Semper Fi" pronounced? Should be "Fi" as in "Hi-Fi", right? Because I heard a lot of "Fi"s as in "Five".

The "Fi" in "Hi-Fi" sounds the same as "Fi" in "Five".

It's pronounced fi as in fish!

Every time I've heard it pronounced it has been the same as "Fi" in "Five". However for that matter I've never heard anyone prononuce "Fi" from "Hi-Fi" as in "Fish"! Understandably it's an abbrevation of Fidelity but I'm yet to come across anyone who doesn't pronounce the pair Hi and Fi to match! --77.102.144.218 (talk) 03:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Semper Fidelis is a latin term meaning always(semper) faithful(fidelis), and the correct pronunciation is "Fi" like "Fee", but the marine corp and other military organizations say it "Fie" way due to habit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.171.31 (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I doubt that one could say that there is a correct pronunciation of the Latin. Those of us who were taught classical Latin at school were told to pronounce words like "fidelis" with a short i, as in fish. But (a) we can't really say with much confidence how the Romans pronounced them and (b) once you abbreviate the word, it's almost impossible to pronounce "fi" like that anyway. As far as I know, from the end of the Roman empire, the pronunciation of Latin diverged in different countries - drastically in the vernacular, giving rise to Italian, Spanish etc - but to some extent even in Church and learned circles. "Semper fidelis" as a motto is medieval not classical Latin, and by the middle ages time people were probably pronouncing it however was easiest given their native languages. So if the Marines want to pronounce it "Semper Fie", I would say good luck to them: they are almost certainly following in the footsteps of the people who first used it as a motto. Just so long as they don't forget that we in Exeter were using it first! seglea (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

.mp3 file

The semper fidelis(.mp3) link doesn't work.

Yep, I guess they started blocking referrers. "Data files must be stored on the same site they are linked from."

Kurt 10:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Origins of Exeter's use of the motto

The story that the motto was granted by Elizabeth I to Exeter, though widely reported (e.g. on the Exeter City Council web page) is proving hard to source. The letter reported in the story is not in the city archives, according to the Devon Record Office who hold them. Exeter's arms were granted in 1547 and the formal description of the grant doesn't include the motto; and John Hooker's map of Exeter of 1587 (found here) clearly shows the arms without the motto. It would be good to document this one. seglea 01:04, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

working backwards... there's an 1835 map of Exeter at [1] which clearly shows the motto on the coat of arms. seglea 21:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

slightly POV statement

The following statement from the article seemed a bit POV:

"Semper fidelis" signifies the dedication and loyalty that individual Marines are expected to have (and inherently do have) for "Corps and Country".

I believe the statement would be better worded:

"Semper fidelis" signifies the dedication and loyalty that individual Marines are expected to have for "Corps and Country".

This wording conveys the same information but does not shed biased towards the USMC. I'm a huge fan of the Marines, but I think saying they "inherently" have dedication is a bit much. Saying most or all marines do might be okay if well worded, but Marines do not "inherently" have dedication. --Matthew 00:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Marineses

Just a slight bug: "...Per Terram" is the motto of the Royal Marines. Really. So

"There were three mottos prior to Semper Fidelis including "Fortitudine" (meaning "with courage") antedating the War of 1812, which was a nod to the British Royal Marines, "Per Mare, Per Terram" ("by sea, by land") and, up until 1843, there was also the motto "To the Shores of Tripoli". "

is actually not making a lot of sense. Are we saying the two Marines swapped mottoes? And do we mean the period 1805ish to 1843 was "...Tripoli" ? It's needlessly complicated at the minute. I can understand adopting the Tripoli one immediately after the Barbary War, but adopting it and then a decade later adopting the motto of an enemy victor (who themselves had only adopted it in the 1780's) seems flighty at best.

Since we've only got two dates and three mottoes, was there competition, unofficial adoption or what? The only other way to make sense of this seems to be to accept "Fortitudine" as some kind of homage to the RM motto. Which is confusing a whole other way. 172.143.144.156 22:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Videogame quote

The phrase "Semper Fi" was also used (allbeit just once) by John Dalton in the video-game Unreal2

Forever Faithful

I though Semper Fi meant Forever Faithful, or is my Latin wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.71.152 (talk) 03:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference between "forever" and "always" both words are used alone in dictionaries to describe the other - I admit they have a different complexion. In translation of a two word phrase it's hard to tell which tone is right, but always has an overtone of "in diverse ways" too which adds to the notion of fidelity and enhances the motto IMO. Pbhj (talk) 03:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The correct translation is actually "Always faithful", since the latin for "forever" is not "semper" but, more likely, "in perpetuum". Tommaso Leso —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.37.202.244 (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Family backgrounds

The family histories are interesting, but only need briefly mentioned as this this an article on Semper fi, not those families. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Serviciul de Protecţie şi Pază

They also have semper fidelis as the motto. Mallerd (talk) 21:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

• Can you provide a citation from a reliable source? — ERcheck (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Article contents - what is appropriate/notable?

It seems that, over a period of time, this article has become a bit of a random list of families, places, and organizations; most without citations. Semper fidelis seems to be a popular motto. Not every group that has it as its motto should be included in this article. I propose that there should be some basic criteria to decide whether an entry should be included.

Here are some ideas:

• Must already have a Wikipedia article. By extension, this means that they have sufficient notabiltiy to pass an AfD.
• Must have a citation from a reliable source to verify the motto.

— ERcheck (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed it's a bit of a mess. I have tried to tidy up a bit by not having subsections except in cities and martial, where more substantial commentary is worthwhile. seglea (talk) 17:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Well done whoever took the knife to the rag tag and bobtail of schools etc. In honour of this very sensible surgery, I have removed the cleanup tag. seglea (talk) 21:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sports clubs

Some time ago we removed all the sports clubs from this page on the grounds that they were clutter. Another one has just appeared, posted by an anon; I have removed it but paste it in here in case we want to reinstate that section. Note that the club is apparently notable as defined above as there is a link to a page, but so were the other clubs we booted out.

BLUE PRIDE, Fanclub of Bulgarian football club Levski Sofia

Semper Fidelis is the motto of BLUE PRIDE, a fanclub of the most beloved Bulgarian football club

seglea (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Trivia - cut?

Anyone else in favour of cutting out the entire - and growing - trivia section? seglea (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No protest was raised so I have cut it all out. If anyone wants it, it can be found in the history section for the edit preceding this data and time. seglea (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

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Notes

This link does not goto the USMC history of seals. Possibly needs to be cut. --173.88.157.204 (talk) 17:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Ffrench

An anon had added Ffrench to the list of families using Semper fidelis as a motto. I have removed it as it is not documented by Burke, who gives their motto as Malo mori quam foedari or Mors potius macula. If you wish to reinsert this please provide a source. seglea (talk) 20:43, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Sousa march

Does anyone else think that "Semper Fidelis" (the march by Sousa) should have its own entry apart from this one? I suspect it would stand on its own well enough; I'd be inclined to create it myself unless anyone strenuously disagrees. Blandoon (talk) 18:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Restoring cuts

An anon had removed the last few edits for no obvious reason. I have restored them, but in so doing may have removed some more recent valid edits - apologies if so. seglea (talk) 23:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Derogatory usage?

I looked up "Semper Fi" (for about the umpteenth time) when hearing or reading it (for about the umpteenth time) in Amercan films or books.

Not being from an Anglo_Saxon or _Latin_ culture, it keeps confusing me.

Being proud of my country and of the deeds of my elders, I find it impossible to understand or condone the "derogatory usage"?

Is anybody interested in explaining it to me? And to others keen on reading, watchin, and understanding? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.156.41.149 (talk) 20:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Scanlon, Snowden etc

An anon had added Scanlon to the list of families using the motto. That may well be accurate, but that part of the articles starts out, "B. Burke (1884, p. 1180) lists the following..." and Scanlon is not in Burke's list. We could add a list of families not listed by Burke, but we would need evidence of their use. seglea (talk) 13:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC).

Similarly Snowden seglea (talk) 09:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

German Army Medical Corps

this is although used by the german army's medic corps, could add this anybody in proper english? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.211.56 (talk) 02:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Semper Fidelis

Could you please add the now disbanded Devon and Dorset Regiment of the British Army who also proudly have Semper Fidelis as their moto and on their cap badge.

Thanks

Mike — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.231.55 (talk) 10:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Mike, feel free to put it in there. Recommend doing so with a reference of some sort. Go for it & someone will fix it up if there's an issue. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 13:08, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

US Marines and "Semper Fi"

I would like to see some information on when this abbreviation became prevalent. I find it difficult to believe that this abbreviation was in common use in the 19th century, for instance. Thank you in advance! (Unregistered user, June 19, 2015) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.113.59 (talk) 10:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Semper paratus

Is "Semper paratus" a response to this? Saw this on NCIS. 31.16.167.91 (talk) 19:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

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Intro

There were series of edits on the article intro on 20 December 2015, which resulted in a compromise with the intro as:

"Semper fidelis is a Latin phrase that means "always faithful" or "always loyal". In the United States it is best known as the motto of the United States Marine Corps usually shortened to Semper Fi. Elsewhere, it is a common motto for towns, families, schools, and military units."

Notes to those edits are in the edit summaries. There were several modifications to the intro prior to that. The intro was changed again on 25 March 2017. I reverted that change until further discussion here if the intro is to be changed again. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 12:47, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

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Separation of "Semper Fi" from the broader motto

This page has become very USMC centric. For example in the "lede" the reference to Semper Fidelis being the motto for the UK Devonshire regiment (and subsequently the Devon and Dorsets),has been removed. And for those organisations with more heritage/size than the USMC to be referred to as "other" is a bit dismissive. If the article said "It is the motto of the Devonshire regiment, in various forms since the 17th Century. It is also in use as a motto for towns, families, schools, and other military units" I would expect some members of the USMC to be upset.

In any event, the current phrasing of the lede suggests that the motto is reduced to Semper Fi. That's a USMC thing. I've tried to edit it accordingly, without removing the USMC from the headline (because I genuinely don't want to offend those faithful to their corps) - but have clearly stirred a hornet's nest. My suggestion was:

"It is the motto of numerous military units, towns, schools, and families, including Lviv and the United States Marine Corps, where it is usually shortened to Semper Fi."

I'm sorry for having made the change without realising the existence/mechanic of this talk board. So apologies for breaking protocol. But hopefully the suggestion is well received.

Nickmason1973 (talk) 10:15, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi. In a Google search of "Semper Fidelis", I saw only one hit for something beyond reference to the United States Marine Corps in the first five pages, and that was on the third page in reference to a book. What units use the motto that have "more size" than the USMC? Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:42, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The organisation I had in mind in terms of size was Lviv - population just under 1m.

The organisation I had in mind in terms of heritage was the Devon and Dorsets Regiment and its predecessors (the Devonshire Regiment, et al, back to the 17th Century.)

But I don't think - when discussing various organisations and their use of a common motto that speaks to the individual loyalty of each member of them, whatever the size or age - that competition is helpful or even really appropriate.

The point is that even if the USMC is somehow "best" and deserves to be the only organisation not described as "other" - then the suggestion in the lede that Semper Fidelis is shortened to Semper Fi is definitely wrong, in that it only occurs in one of the many organisations with this motto. In my suggested edit, I still gave the USMC pride of place, but tried to correct this USMC-centric error.

How would it not be fairer to others, more clear, and with no detriment to the USMC, to take my suggestion?

(Incidentally, when I googled from the UK, the first entries (apart from dictionary etc) were for a couple of schools in the UK. Googling from the US is likely to give a US centric answer - that's literally what their algorithms do. I'd hazard a guess that in Poland or Ukraine, it would yield different results again).

Nickmason1973 (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia article on Lviv, Semper Fidelis is a historical use, and was part of the logo from 1936–1939. Do you have a reliable source that discusses use of Semper Fidelis for Lviv beyond Wikipedia:Trivial mentions? Also, the motto of the USMC is Semper Fidelis. I see other examples of the use of the abbreviated version beyond the "Marine Corps". Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 21:44, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It was the motto bestowed in the 16th century. Primary evidence of it predating 1936 can be found here https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Lviv/directory.html , in a transcript of a 1929 civic document. I think you'll also find academic confirmation of the bestowal of the motto by the Pope here https://www.academia.edu/8750942/Constructing_Noble_Ancestors_and_Ignoble_Neighbours_Uses_of_the_Cornelius_Tacitus_Germania_and_Annales_in_J_B_Zimorowicz_s_Leopolis_triplex_1650s_1670s_

It's possible that the confusion is because - like much of Europe - things have changed over time. Lviv has been known by different names, and different rulers, over the centuries.

You say you've seen other organisations say "Semper Fi" - whereabouts? It's certainly not one I've come across (and it's pretty rare to contract a latin motto like that). Btw - I've never questioned that the motto of the USMC is Semper Fidelis. My issue is that the wiki page says that Semper Fidelis is usually shortened to Semper Fi. That's incorrect. It might be just clumsy grammar - hence why I tried to arrange it so that the clause that related to that shortening referred only to the USMC. I'm not sure why this is so difficult, when my suggestion doesn't detract from the USMC, but provides greater clarity to the broader use of the motto. Nickmason1973 (talk) 23:24, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I did not say Semper Fi or Semper Fidelis was limited to use by organizations, and neither does the Wikipedia article. A search on Google: "semper fi" -marine comes up with many non USMC uses of the abbreviation. So does a search of Newspapers.com. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 00:08, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say you said that, but the current wording is "It is the motto of the United States Marine Corps, usually shortened to Semper Fi". This is incorrect. It is the motto of the United States Marine Corps. And the USMC will often/usually shorten it to Semper Fi. But to say it is usually shortened to Semper Fi is misleading.

I do not agree it's misleading because the abbreviated version is contained in one sentence about the Marine Corps. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

btw - when I google as you suggest, all the references are either to a film Semper Fi, or to USMC veterans organisations etc. There seems no evidence that the contraction isn't a derivation of the USMC contraction, which is my contention. Nickmason1973 (talk) 07:36, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Semper Fi - here's a use related to a UK band. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Also to note - it's sufficiently commonplace as a known motto in Lviv for there to be a film called Semper Fidelis about the heroes defending the city. Nickmason1973 (talk) 23:27, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

The 1st ref appears to be a non-reliable source. Both refs are trivial mentions with only one use of the motto in each. If you want to change the lede by adding specific uses, than provide notability backed by reliable sources why it warrants being mentioned there vice coverage in the body. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 00:08, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

What on earth is unreliable about a transcript from 1929? And forgive me, why are you the arbiter of what is and isn't reliable?

Please see below about reliable sources. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Again - I'm trying to make a correction that better reflects the universal use of the motto, without being misleading; and at the same time in no way denigrating the USMC. You haven't given me any evidence as to why my correction would not be appropriate. Nickmason1973 (talk) 07:40, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Already covered, because the overwhelming use of Semper Fidelis relates to the Marine Corps and specific mentions without broad coverage should not be in the lede, but rather covered in the body. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

And yet more evidence, this time from the Polish government (remember that Lviv was part of Poland pre WW2): The https://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/8953,The-ceremony-of-awarding-the-quotSemper-Fidelisquot-Prize-8-October-2021-at-the-.html

Please note that I've no connection with Lviv, particular axe to grind, or particular foreknowledge. All of the above has been from simple research, which anyone could have done in an hour or so. I only stumbled upon this whole issue when I noticed that the acknowledgement of the motto for the Devon & Dorsets Regiment (formerly Devonshire) wasn't in the main "lede", and had been removed. In that spirit, I'm trying to return the entry to a properly universal record of the use of the motto. Nickmason1973 (talk) 07:32, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Please review this article on Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Also review this about Ancestry.com, one of the largest genealogical websites, which JewishGen also appears to be. The third link appears to be a press release, so please read this on press releases. It is really up to the author of content to say why a source is reliable based on Wikipedia policy. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)