Talk:2022/Archive 14

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Links to year pages from ITN

The article about the current year such as 2022 is obviously driven by news coverage. As such, there's an overlap between it and our other similar pages and processes such as WP:ITN and Portal:Current events. It might be good to have more cross-linkage between them to help editors and readers understand how Wikipedia organises this information. Please see a current discussion about this. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

A link to the current main year article should always be included in ITN. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Bankruptcy of FTX (Result: no consensus, continued in RFC)

@Jim Michael 2 removed my entry on the crash of FTX, claiming that this has more to do with Antigua+Barbuda and the Bahamas instead of internationally. I vehemently disagree with this prospect; FTX may technically be headquartered in one of those Caribbean nations, but FTX's collapse sufficiently fulfills our international criteria given that it is (or was) one of the most widely trusted cryptocurrency firms/exchanges, FTX's influence within major financial capitals (as well as in the United States government and culture), FTX filing for bankruptcy in the United States instead of the Bahamas or Antigua+Barbuda, and FTX's truly international presence in nearly every place where crypto is legal or not dependent on regulation. Given that the collapse has also sent Bitcoin and Ethereum prices on a wild ride, and additionally taking into consideration how cryptocurrencies are more comparable to internationally-traded commodities rather than domestic stocks, as well as much of the media comparing FTX's collapse to being a "Lehman Brothers" or "Enron" moment (see CNN, Business Insider, and the India Times along with many others I can't fit in), this should more than suffice as an international event. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

It's nowhere near as big as Lehman or Enron. International businesses fail frequently; it's rarely important enough for main year articles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

The future of Bitcoin and Ethereum in the world economy is hazy, but if this collapse is part of a larger chain of events that affects the world more greatly, such as cryptocurrency returning tot obscurity, it would without a doubt be notable for inclusion. I think it merits inclusion for the time being, but it would be worthwhile to discuss this in a few months to see if it affected anything in the long term. If not, I'd be leaning towards exclusion if it was a singular event. The Voivodeship King (talk) 23:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

It'd be WP:CRYSTAL to assume it'll be part of a domino effect. Even then, it's not usual for main year articles to include steps of a business type's decline. We don't include various companies that failed due to the Great Recession or the COVID-19 pandemic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I would agree...the article Cryptocurrency bubble lists it as an event contributing to the "bursting" of the bubble. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Main year articles don't include every contributory event to a bubble bursting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that not every contributory event deserves inclusion, but this is a key event both on its own and if the bubble does burst. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

In what respect is it a key event on its own? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 00:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

The collapse disrupted the cryptocurrency market heavily impacted Bitcoin prices, which increased by 20% in the immediate aftermath (see here) but later collapsed as seen by Forbes. Bitcoin has now wiped away all of its COVID-era gains and erasing $200 billion from many cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin and Ethereum.

WIRED magazine highlights that many cryptocurrency traders lost much of their fortune upon the collapse of FTX, with some traders across the world (such as the lead example provided by WIRED) losing 97% of his assets; Bloomberg has also highlighted that many across the world have seen their assets locked out of. As seen in The Guardian, members of the British Parliament were briefed that many institutional investors had lost millions due to the collapse. In the US, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is joining increasing calls to regulate cryptocurrency (see Coindesk). Coindesk further notes that the collapse of FTX is sparking talk of regulation not just in the US and the UK but in the Bahamas as well. And philanthropists and scientists relying on FTX, especially those working on climate change, lost their funding as well. Not too much in the cryptocurrency world gets this international. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Major international losses to both individuals & orgs are commonplace. That doesn't make them important international events. It's long been well-known that cryptocurrency prices are very volatile. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

When an entire global industry been dragged down, though, and various significant losses to firms and individuals from Canada to Cambodia all centralize from one event or series of events, it might not justify the inclusion of all those events, but inclusion of the most inciting incident here shouldn't be hampered. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Did many major international companies have most of their assets in cryptocurrencies, causing them to go bankrupt as a result of the fall in the prices of them? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Broadly construed, as cited in the list of sources in my previous comment, many major and minor firms listed had a large part of their assets, either a majority, minority, or plurality, in at least part cryptocurrency. Also consider, as previously mentioned, many individuals had a large part of their net worth (in some cases, up to 97% of their assets), in cryptocurrencies traded on FTX. They were all locked out of their assets. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Include, this is by far one of the biggest events to happen in the crypto world. FTX's bankruptcy along with the subsequent hack that was reported yesterday has dragged down the entire cryptocurrency market significantly. PaulRKil (talk) 13:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

How can cryptocurrencies be of great importance to the world? We don't include major changes in the values of important currencies in main year articles, so why include this? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Cryptocurrency is volatile, but it's still something that a lot of people around the world from all countries are involved in and even more follow. Inclusion should be a no-brainer. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:41, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

That's also true of the value of many currencies, as well as oil, gold, etc. We don't include major changes in the prices of those, or the effects those price changes cause. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

False...we have the OPEC production cut in October listed. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

That entry only mentions a production cut, not a change in price. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

The production cut caused a change in prices. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but that isn't mentioned in this article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Because it's a logical assumption one can make and an instance of WP:BLUE. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Many readers wouldn't know that. If editors thought it important they'd have added the percentage or number of dollars the price moved by to that entry. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

That's beyond the point. We're not the Simple English Wikipedia where everything needs to be explained to an incredibly specific amount of detail. We as a wiki can reasonably assume people know basic economics. Both OPEC's October cut and FTX's collapse are major events in some of the most internationally-followed industries. We've done this before; as of writing this comment, 2008's first collage image is the Lehman Brothers HQ in NYC right after their collapse, the Dot-com bubble is featured twice on 2000, the sub-prime mortgage crisis is prominently featured in 2007, 2020 prominently features a Russo-Saudi oil price war, and too many more examples to fit into this reply. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Simple WP has much less detail than here. Its main year articles are long only because they lack year by country & topic subarticles.

You're sure that the collapse of this company - which the large majority of people haven't heard of - is as important as each of those events? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I am sure, and based on the amount of naming rights FTX itself has acquired and the international coverage it has attained, it more than meets our thresholds for inclusion. According to the sources compiled in the articles FTX financial crisis and FTX (company), the collapse of FTX is rippling across the industry. BlockFi, a major cryptocurrency lending firm, is widely believed by many RS's to file for bankruptcy (see Bloomberg and the WSJ), and BlockFi is only one example; multiple other firms have either declared bankruptcy or taken huge financial losses. Don't forget all those previously-mentioned people who were locked out of 97% of their assets. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Your argument relies heavily on cryptocurrency being of great importance - to a similar level as mortgages. The industry we're talking about is high-risk trading/betting in pseudocurrencies. Likewise in regard to Activision Blizzard - its importance relies on video games being of great importance. We don't include large changes in the values of currencies, commodities or shares in major companies. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

FTX isn't a large change of value in currencies, commodities, or shares in a major company. FTX is a bankruptcy. And we do include momentous bankruptcies; see Lehman in 2008 and Enron in 2001. In 2010, a banking collapse in Iceland also occurred and is listed on 2010. The argument above more so describes your personal opinion on cryptocurrencies, and while I'm not a fan of crypto either, I don't deny their notability.

Side note: your point focusing on Activison is false; in 2000, we have the Time Warner AOL merger/acquisition. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:28, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

The vast majority of businesses and individuals don't accept cryptocurrencies as payment because they're not proper currencies. Main year articles don't include the vast majority of bankruptcies & this one isn't as important as the others you mention. They don't include the vast majority of mergers, acquisitions etc. either. There should be a subarticle such as 2022 in business, 2022 in economics or 2022 in finance which would include things such as these. There are many things on main year articles which are nowhere near important enough to be on them, because many people add those things & there are nowhere near enough regular editors removing them. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Your claim about this not being important is, yet again, FALSE. Where are your sources for proving that this isn't important? I just met with a hedge fund manager and former BlackRock employee last night, and he stated that even BlackRock itself was exposed to the collapse of FTX. Personal experience isn't the only damning evidence for this case either; the NYT lists BlackRock as an investor into FTX which took a loss, along with many other major investment firms. It's also proven that FTX is the biggest financial story of the year which doesn't focus on inflation or governments; see SCMP, the Financial Times, and as of 10:51 Eastern, the front page of the Economist. And that point about being not proper currencies...they're still internationally-traded commodities, and pretty much every major world country except China uses them to an extent. If you think a sub article should be created, why not WP:DIY? I'll help you out on it if you want. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

The burden of demonstrating importance is on those who want to include disputed content. Many companies bet on changes in prices of crypto, as they do many other things. Likewise, they invest & trade in many companies. Being the year's most important non-government, non-inflation finance event doesn't make it important enough for a main year article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I think I've done enough when it comes to demonstrating importance based on the sheer amount of lasting coverage demonstrated from a wide variety of sources as seen above, and keep in mind that as of writing this, you're the only one actively resisting inclusion (and based on such, exclusion potentially can fall under WP:SNOWBALL. And "Being the year's most important non-government, non-inflation finance event doesn't make it important enough for a main year article" isn't a good argument when concerning a major industry which has a significant enough impact on the world economy. I've demonstrated before that a wide scope of people from Filipino individuals to American mega firms have been impacted in some fashion. What more do you want? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Thousands of events are important to something. Bankruptcies, major losses etc. are commonplace. Crypto has been notoriously volatile for the whole of its existence. The vast majority of this discussion has been between you & me. The fact that most of the regular editors here haven't joined this discussion, nor have any non-regulars, shows a lack of interest in it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

It's still 3 to 1 in favor of inclusion regardless, at least as of writing, and lack of opinion or interest is better interpreted as neutrality or lack of preference on whether it's in rather than opposition. In principle, I agree that most bankruptcies when it's just a bankruptcy should be excluded. This isn't one of the cases, though, and this is an instance where a mentality of absolutism based solely on the labels of the events fail to show the true extent to what it has caused. Crypto and its volatility shouldn't be downplayed; this is a major event in an international industry which is already causing some to predict that Coinbase, another major firm, will collapse as well (see Barrons and CNBC). You're losing the debate. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

• Exclude - I don't think most people will have any idea what this is about, or care. Deb (talk) 18:30, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
• Exclude - Outside of U.S. I don't think this is really that significant news, outside of crypto community. I mean, I don't think people around me know about the collapse in Indonesia. MarioJump83 (talk) 02:04, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

As with many other events & people, someone who has an interest in it argues for its inclusion, not accepting that it doesn't affect the large majority of people. Most people don't know about it, and even if they did they wouldn't be interested. Major increases in inflation & interest rates each affect a high proportion of people, yet we rarely include those in main year articles. The people & orgs affected by this company's collapse are those who choose to trade a very high-risk, very high-volatility instrument that has little legitimacy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

TheScrubby has previously argued that this article generally needs more diversity. This is the biggest event in the crypto world to happen. FTX and BlockFi, itself worth $3 billion, have both filed for bankruptcy. One can't really argue that people don't care about this on an international level unless they survey the population themselves from across everywhere; Indonesia or America alone isn't a good metric. Furthermore, inclusion as a simple sentence with less than 20 words would not harm the article in any way without a degree of fearmongering being exhibited. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

What you're saying would justify including it only if crypto were important. BlockFi's bankruptcy should be on 2022 in the United States. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Disputing the importance, or at least international relevancy, of cryptocurrency in our world is ridiculous to the point of shooting yourself in the foot when an entire wikiproject on crypto exists. And BlockFi's bankruptcy isn't notable on its own but it was at least partly as a result of FTX. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

We also have an explosives project, but we exclude the vast majority of explosions & advancements in explosives technology. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Classic WP:OSE. Explosives aren't usually included in main year articles unless they played a role in international conflicts because both 2022 in science exists as well as, with exceptions, generally minimal coverage of advancements in explosive technology. This discussion isn't about including every crypto bankruptcy; it's including the FTX collapse as a single entry. It shouldn't be a big deal to include it, and the article would ultimately have no representation of crypto as of yet without it; Scrubby has in past discussions advocated for more diversity generally. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:55, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Technological innovations inclusion bar

What is the inclusion bar for technological breakthroughs that occurred within 2022? Is there a consensus on this? 2022 in science has a compilation of such breakthroughs but does any of them have significant influence on an international level to be on the 2022 main page? FireInMe (talk) 20:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I can't think of any that are important enough for this article. Do you specifically suggest any? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:32, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I have no specific suggestions. But, I do see some significant progress in certain areas that's why I inquired about the inclusion bar. Many of them are just continuations of trends. I tend to agree that none seem important enough but it still prompts the question of the what is important enough criteria wise. For example, does it need to be a commercially available breakthrough that's available globally or does it just need to be a major discovery or innovation? FireInMe (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Continuations of trends (in regard to any topic, not just tech) aren't important enough for main year articles. It wouldn't need to be global, but it'd need to have a substantial international effect on many people's lives. Minor improvements & niche products don't qualify. There was a discussion in which it was agreed that software isn't important enough. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Continuations of trends (in regard to any topic, not just tech) aren't important enough for main year articles. We're in full agreement on that. I just think that some criteria should be established because some breakthroughs in innovation are clearly notable say towards progress in cancer research, artificial intelligence, or Genetic engineering (eg. CRISPR or cloning innovations). Progress in technology is exponential and I think some baseline consensus on what is notable for inclusion should be established as the years go on for main year articles. FireInMe (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

We wouldn't reach consensus for that; it's too complicated & there wouldn't be enough editors agreeing on all aspects of tech. Are there some things in previous main year articles that you think shouldn't be &/or things not in them that you think should be? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards that it’s a complicated topic. It’s more of a “heads up”, there’s major predictions (of course some could be off). I have no doubt it will be a case-by-case basis it’s just a topic for editors to consider for main year pages. FireInMe (talk) 18:30, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

We certainly shouldn't include any predictions. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:39, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't include predictions per WP:CRYSTAL. What I'm saying is when the time comes and they do happen it's a wise decision to have a framework of their inclusion or exclusion. FireInMe (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think a detailed inclusion criteria will be agreed on. The many discussions on inclusion of sportspeople & entertainers still haven't reached a consensus in regard to their inclusion bars. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:00, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

There are a few, but they're mostly American. I'm referring to ChatGPT, Artemis 1, the Fusion stuff, maybe SpaceX Starlink, etc. Don't think it's enough until we're no longer CRYSTALBALLing. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Nov and Dec deaths

Several of the people in the November & December subsections of Deaths have importance tags on them. Which of those people should stay & which should be removed? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I have no objection to all of them being removed. _-_Alsor (talk) 09:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not familiar with many of the people tagged but I would argue that Colonel Joseph Kittinger should be included. He took part in both Project Manhigh and Project Excelsior, the latter of which he held the record for highest skydive (102,800ft) for over 50 years and still holds the record for the longest freefall. Excelsior was used to help test the multi-stage parachute, something still in use to this day. For his efforts he was indicted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame and even has a park named after him. CaptainGalaxy 21:57, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Do those things give him substantial international notability? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The records he set are international records that even the Soviets were trying to beat. The parachutes he tested are still in use today although modified from his initial design. If it helps he was also the first person to perform a solo crossing of the Atlantic Ocean in a gas balloon. CaptainGalaxy 02:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

This might not be a case of major international influence, but this should meet our standards when it comes to substance. Niche doesn't always mean not notable. I would second CaptainGalaxy and suggest Include. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Change into past tense

I would like to establish consensus about this article to be re-written into the past tense no earlier than 00:00 UTC-12 when the last parts of the world (Baker Island etc.) transition. Before this point in time, 2022 will not yet have passed in its entirety and it thus doesn't make sense to write about as passed while still being partially current. If you’re waiting to update, I would recommend you to google “Time Baker Island” to see when to do so.--Marginataen (talk) 03:17, 31 December 2022 (UTC) :Support. We’ve been doing this for a while on year pages and if it’s not already codified, let’s do so here. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 03:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Support. PolPot1975 (talk) 12:05, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose, because year articles are routinely written in the present tense. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Changing vote to Neutral. Either works as long as we're consistent. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:25, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Is is correct that events are and should be written in the present tense. I was referring to the main tense of the article – "2022 is" vs. "2022 was" for instance Marginataen (talk) 19:56, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

The leads of previous main year articles are in the past tense, but the rest of those articles are in the present tense. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:24, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Replace 2022 Winter Olympics with 2022 FIFA World Cup in collage

A lot of persons were not even aware that the Winter Olympics happened. Meanwhile, World Cup was watch by billions of people, I think it makes more sense to have Qatar 2022 over the winter olympics TRJ2008 (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Support. They received a lot more press coverage and notability among the populace. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Support The World Cup took up a lot of discourse due to its controversies talked about throughout a significant part of the year and had a lot of eyes on the matches. CaptainGalaxy 17:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Support. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Support - It makes sense considering the viewership numbers for each. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Vivienne Westwood (Result: borderline inclusion)

I have noticed importance tag was removed and added again. In WP:ITN/C there's some serious discussions about adding her to the blurb. I feel like she should belong to this page, as she is very important to the world of punk fashion. MarioJump83 (talk) 21:14, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

ITN has different criteria to us. How internationally notable is she? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:42, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

A quick Google Trends check shows that she's notable internationally – she's quite popular in Japan (!). Here's some news articles from Malaysia and Indonesia. For me, it should be enough evidence that it is not really an Anglocentric event. MarioJump83 (talk) 22:03, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

International popularity doesn't prove international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

How does it not then, when in conjunction with substance? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:55, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Punk culture and the genre of punk rock is actually popular worldwide and influenced the modern rock genre we all know today. Vivienne Westwood is a significant part of this, and should be considered internationally notable as such. There's a substance in this, per InvadingInvader, and it cannot be ignored. MarioJump83 (talk) 22:59, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Punk is international but has never been worldwide & it's a subculture rather than mainstream. Also, how important is Westwood to it? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Punk isn't really that popular in Africa but it goes as far as Asia, including my country where it is seen as a nuisance, so I consider Punk to be worldwide. Punk used to be mainstream in the '70s and punk fashion of that time has Vivienne being a big part of this. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:13, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

It's never been popular in Africa, so it's certainly not worldwide. Punk has always been proudly subcultural, so how can it be considered mainstream? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:13, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Support Inclusion per MarioJump InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Of course. MarioJump83 (talk) 23:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Include. Not sure about the opening blurb, but she certainly deserves a mention in the Deaths section. A very notable and influential figure in fashion. Wjfox2005 (talk) 22:57, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

How internationally notable is she? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Not that notable. Well compared to people like Ralph Lauren. 2601:204:CF81:EC80:D48D:85F2:364D:A875 (talk) 02:04, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

The fact that she is in the discussion for the ITN blurb, and a photo blurb in this, she may well be worthy of inclusion in the opening blurb. MarioJump83 (talk) 23:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

ITN's inclusion criteria are very different to ours and it's unlikely that they'll give her a blurb. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree, and the ITN blurb ended with a no consensus result. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Exclude This is another person who is famous, but I wouldn't consider her internationally famous. Agree, with Jim Michael 2. Nemov (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Borderline inclusion based on her international influence on fashion. TheScrubby (talk) 03:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Anita Pointer (Result: borderline inclusion)

Does Anita Pointer deserve to be in the 2022 deaths list? just asking :) ShaggyAnimate (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

She's another example of a musician whose group has substantial international notability, but who has no individual international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we can let her on since she was the founder of the sisters. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:14, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

ok 👌 ShaggyAnimate (talk) 20:34, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Exclude This is where I wouldn't stand on. Not well-known worldwide. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:07, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Reconsidered, I'm now in favor of borderline inclusion being a founding member of a well known group. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:31, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi ShaggyAnimate (talk) I have never heard of Anita Pointer. But she was one of The Pointer Sisters. That should be enough to warrant mention in 2022. Was she as on the money as Queen Elizabeth II? No way. Was she as hopelessly devoted as Olivia Newton John? Not at all. But the Pointer Sisters were so excited, they could not hide it. They did the Neutron Dance for goodness sake. OK so John, Paul George and Ringo were each successful as solo artists ... but gestalt theory reminds us the 4 mop tops were greater than the sum of their Liverpool parts, or something. Seriously though, The Pointer Sisters were BIG in the 1980s, and that should count for something. We may not know them as Anita, Bonnie, June and Ruth (except if you read the article on Wikipedia). But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be noted for their individual contribution when they die. I'm glad you said "OK" above. I just wonder why you care so much to ask the question in the first place, but not curious enough to find out who she is before you ask? Peace and Love.

It's a fair question & many editors don't know much about many of the people listed. Inclusion on main year articles requires substantial international notability & there's a lot of debate here about who to include. She's in a category that's quite often debated: musicians who don't have individual international notability, but whose groups do. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I think for me it depends on if she was dominant in the group, either as a founder or a signature member. A good comparison is John McVie to Fleetwood Mac, someone who only attained notability inside the group but was internationally seen as a core member, and widely so. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Are there any band members who are in this article who you think shouldn't be, or any that aren't whom you think should be? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I haven't looked hard enough; throw me some suggestions if you don't mind. The big comparison seems to be Terry Hall...and it does seem like that he was a non notable member of a lot of groups. I think that if someone gets John McVie or greater levels of fame with a band which is at the very least a bit less famous than Fleetwood Mac, we'll include the person. Pointer did so with her sisters...but I don't see Terry Hall doing something like that with the bands he played with.

Perhaps another way to phrase it, using the Catholic Church, would be including a 43-day long pope (representing Pointer) over a 75-year long bishop of Chicago (representing Hall, and I know a 75-year long bishop realistically isn't possible but you get the point I'm trying to make). == InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:00, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

We don't include domestic religious figures, but do include Pope John Paul I. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 06:41, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

This conversation isn't about the Catholic Church; it's about Pointer. She was part of only one group but achieved international recognition for being part of it. Terry Hall was not notable with any one single group. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:33, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You raised the topic of clergy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I used clergy as an example to help you think. Pointer is relative positionally to the Pope compared to Terry Hall, supposedly represented in my example as a 75-year long Bishop. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Exclude She's lacking international or domestic notability as an individual artist. There are plenty of examples of band or group members who were famous on their own, but she's not on that list. I'm an American and didn't even know who it was until I realized she was a member of the music group. Nemov (talk) 22:55, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Nor I didn't know much either. She's not that well known to be honest, and I never heard of this name before. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

We've had discussions about this before, and it would be a terrible idea to exclude band members who were central to the success of the internationally notable groups they were in. If they weren't a core member/founding member/classic line-up member/etc., then it would be fair enough to consider exclusion. TheScrubby (talk) 03:21, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I can live with her being added as a borderline inclusion, given that she was a founder and central member of the internationally notable Pointer Sisters. TheScrubby (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Should I remove her from the 1948 article too? Kyu (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

A borderline inclusion applies to both year articles. So no need to do anything. TheScrubby (talk) 03:48, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

2022 COVID-19 protests in China (Result: borderline inclusion)

These are domestic, with only small solidarity protests in several other countries. The partial gov concessions are domestic. Even if you include the 2022 Ürümqi fire in the death toll, it's still low. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

I think that most other protests would be domestic, but I think this would be one that should be included in the main international page. Protests in China are generally rare, and ones that succeed to any degree are remarkable. Exclusion of widely-covered events for the sole reason of being domestic and ignoring everything other detail isn't a good approach when countries, especially the world's most populous ones, spur international media coverage. Jim has generally more permissive of events which cause a major impact, a position which I personally share; this is one which has ultimately led to the CCP ceding to protestors' demands. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

The 2022 Kazakh unrest is included because international forces took part & it resulted in the gov resigning. Its death toll was over 200. None of that is true of the Chinese protests. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

To respond to both your reply to me and Wjfox2005: Whatever the notability criteria is, unless it's biased to specifically censor China, these protests should be included. Jim, look at things relatively to not this year alone or other protests but also the history of a country or its size. A country like China, which has had zero wide-scale protests aside from this one and the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests/massacre, should see its biggest protests covered. In addition, some of the most notable protests ever don't always result in regime change or mass death; see the American March on Washington and the Indian Salt March. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:19, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The inclusion guidelines & I aren't biased. We don't include things due to them being unusual. Likewise due to them having a lot of media coverage; if we did, we'd include celebrity weddings. These aren't among the most notable protests of all time, nor are they anywhere near as notable as the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. They also aren't the world's most notable protests of this year. Things aren't inherently more important due to them happening in the world's most populous country; similar arguments could be used to include various events in Russia because it's the largest country & in the US because it's the most powerful. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Equal weight regardless of country is a bad philosophy to undergo. And comparison to the most extreme events, or anomalies, doesn’t necessarily help your case. Take into account how rare an event is, or how rare the end result is, instead of just saying “it’s domestic and it’s not Tiananmen Square therefore it’s gone”. Don’t just weigh anomalies. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not the size, power or population of a country that's important when judging the notability of protests. The size & duration of the protests, the number of deaths caused, their internationality & changes in government as a result of them are what matters. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Why only that? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Because they're the important factors. What else would be? The size/power/population of the city/country they take place in? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

It's a balancing act between coverage and substance which does and should define notability for the purposes of this article, and the size of the country plus the size of the country. The country does matter, Jim. I know you hate to see that, but the country it takes place in does matter. And especially if it's a successful protest happening in the censorship capital of the world. Your arguments for the exclusion of events are comparable to "ad-hominem" reasons for exclusion; just because something happened in one country and wasn't the 1917 Russian Revolution doesn't mean it should be excluded. As stated previously, the main year article has to balance BOTH coverage and substance. This is an event which may fall slightly short when judging on substance alone but has gained much more media coverage than any other protest, likely because that protests of this level practically never happen in China. By only looking at event substance, we exclude what readers care about and we fail to put WP:READERs and their opinions on what they care about first. It's neither the position nor purpose of Wikipedia to dictate what people should care about (further information: WP:POINT). InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm generally a big proponent of adding more China related items to main year articles but I'd have to say exclude. It is no different than the myriad of other protests against COVID measures that have been happening in virtually every country over the last 2 years, regardless of whether or not protests in China are rare or not. I think that the Canadian trucker protests were more impactful, but we have excluded those on this article as well. PaulRKil (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the Canada convoy protest is significantly more notable, involving far more vehicles. It caused far more disruption & cost far more to the economy. It's by far this year's most notable COVID-related protest. It has some internationality, including blockades of some crossings on the Canada–United States border & inspiring similar, smaller protests in other countries. As they were primarily domestic, I agree with them being excluded. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 01:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I think that both are domestic in substance, but internationally impactful enough, more so Canada's truckers than China's students. I would not oppose the inclusion of both, but if only one of the two had to go on, Canada would be the one. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree that it's difficult to justify including the China protests when the Canadian ones aren't here. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

What if we be a little bit more inclusive now, and around maybe March 2023 (ideally when most of the fans and more hardline inclusionists are gone), we can conduct more complete reviews on events and deaths? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

We needn't wait 3 months. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Why not? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Because it'd be an unnecessary delay. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Include. Given the prominent status/role played by China throughout the pandemic, and the rarity of protests like this in such a hardline country, I think on balance it's okay to include this. It's a notable milestone in the Covid crisis, and signifies that the world as a whole is finally moving on from it. Of course, Covid is still ongoing, and we'll be dealing with it for years (perhaps forever) but the fact that a country like China is now ending its Zero Covid policy is notable. I think it's wrong to exclude things purely for being domestic, it's sometimes more nuanced than that, and there are shades of grey. Wjfox2005 (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Millions of people have COVID; it's far from over. Many countries have changed their COVID policies. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

None as big as China, which previously had among the most restrictive COVID policies prior to the concessions. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:31, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Bob McGrath (Result: exclusion)

Is Bob McGrath notable enough to be included? I don't think he is ? 2601:204:CF81:EC80:1005:75E5:73F:3960 (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Exclude. Sesame Street is certainly an internationally notable show, but none of the main human performers are even memorable to Americans like me with the sole exception of Mr. Hooper. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Exclude because he has no international notability. There are far too many fans adding domestic figures & far too few regulars to remove them all. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, and this is not helped by the profoundly mistaken inclusion of Robbie Coltrane. McGrath’s notability is even less so, and should accordingly be relegated to Year In Topic like other such domestic actor. TheScrubby (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

There's no case for including McGrath. I can't think of a way to encourage more people to become regulars on main year articles without likely being accused of canvassing. Making an exception for Coltrane basically because many people here are fans of him has made it difficult to argue against people who want to include domestic entertainers. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Generally, my idea is to keep main year articles as collections of the most defining or notable events regardless of whether they're domestic, but giving preference to international events. Loosening our standards by just a bit makes both sides equally satisfied. I'm concerned about the Events section being a little bit too short and that the standards are too rigid. I think it's easier for me to support the exclusion of more domestic figures than more domestic events since deaths themselves, with way fewer exceptions than domestic events, only truly impact the person who died and their family. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:21, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Opening the door to domestic events would mean including domestic disasters, battles, attacks, crimes, protests, elections & referendums, as well as events related to entertainment, sport & business. Doing so in relation to births & deaths would mean including a large number of people who most of the world haven't heard of, who haven't even worked outside their home country. That'd include sportspeople, politicians, entertainers & famous-for-being-famous people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't that give the chance for people to learn more about people, though? People can work mostly inside their home country and be internationally notable. Mahatma Ghandi and MLK Jr are perfect examples; they only truly worked in British India and the US respectively, but they've done innumerable justices for the world even though neither of them held official political office in their respective nations. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

You're saying we should add a load of domestic figures to main year articles so readers can unexpectedly find out about people who shouldn't be here? Main year articles are rarely read from start to finish; they're referred to. If people want to know about a particular country's domestic figures, they'd read the relevant subarticles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying that we should add a load of domestic figures. Domestic figures with widely provable international recognition is a yes. Domestic figures who have only been remotely heard of internationally, that's where we agree on exclusion. The article feels just a bit too small at the moment. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Which domestic figures with widely provable international recognition died this year? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

MLK Jr won the Nobel Peace Prize for his social activism, he was internationaly. recognized.

And Ghandi was influential in india's history as well.

We're not talking about them when it comes to notability. 2601:204:CF81:EC80:391F:3C35:48EF:F3D4 (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

They're internationally notable, but the large majority of notable people are domestic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Nobel Prizes? (Result: no change/status quo)

Not a question about this article specifically but I could find nowhere else to enquire — why are Nobel Prizes listed on year articles? What’s so notable about them that they’re given such special treatment? They’re awards given by independent, private, non-governmental organisations. Why not list this year’s Oscars or Emmys in their own section as well?

Is there an RfC which approved this at some point in the project’s history? Asperthrow (talk) 00:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree that main year articles greatly inflate the importance of Nobels. They're the only awards that are included. They have their own section, giving the impression that they're the most important thing about each year! They should be in a single entry in events, if included at all. They've been discussed, but I don't believe that there's been an RfC about them. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

They are listed because they represent the pinnacle of human achievement in their respective fields for a given year and are therefore highly notable. Oscars and Emmys are more like trivia and aren't comparable. The Nobels have been discussed before, extensively. Wjfox2005 (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Agree. Very much. _-_Alsor (talk) 22:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

You're all sure they warrant their own section, rather than an entry in Events? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Yep. _-_Alsor (talk) 18:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm on the Neutral side when it comes to this. I don't think people care, but they are important. So I'm stuck. If y'all want to start an RFC on WikiProject years to help convince me, by all means please do. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you think they should have a separate section? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

They definitely shouldn't have their own section IMHO. That's implying that achievements in the chosen subjects of chemistry and literature etc. are somehow better than winning "pinnacle" awards in other areas of life including mathematics, other academic subjects, not to mention music, sport, humanitarian work etc. It's unbalanced to single out the Nobel prizes in this way.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree - is a Nobel in Literature universally considered to be significantly more important than all other literary awards? It's also strongly implying that awarding Nobels is the most important event of the year. Would anyone honestly say that they were the biggest, most important event of 2022 - or any year?! Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

• The Oscars and Emmys are not suitable because they are American rather than global. For example, to win an Oscar a movie has to be shown in Los Angeles. The other problem is that hundreds of them are distributed every year -- about 24 Oscars and so many Emmys that it's hard to count them all. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

None of the film & TV awards are important enough for main year articles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

RFC on the bankruptcy of FTX (Result: borderline inclusion)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There have been no changes in a few days and although there were some arguments for it to be excluded there is a clear consensus for the topic to be included. Note: this is not a WP:SNOW close. Gusfriend (talk) 08:13, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

---

The initial discussion on the inclusion of the FTX collapse has led to no consensus. The main question is: Should the Bankruptcy of FTX, be included, pursuant to the options below? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:27, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Include. I've stated my opinion previously, but I'll save the need for people to scroll up. CNN, Business Insider, and the India Times, among other sources in the media, have referred to FTX's collapse, once one of the most trusted cryptocurrency exchanges in the world, as the "Lehman Brothers" or "Enron" Moment for Cryptocurrency. Millions of people, from middle class crypto traders in Southeast Asia to Finance Firms in New York City have lost money due to FTX's collapse, from a small sliver of their portfolio to a large chunk of their holdings. WIRED magazine highlights that many cryptocurrency traders lost much of their fortune upon the collapse of FTX, with some traders across the world (such as the lead example provided by WIRED) losing 97% of his assets; Bloomberg has also highlighted that many across the world have seen their assets locked out of. As seen in The Guardian, members of the British Parliament were briefed that many institutional investors had lost millions due to the collapse. In the US, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is joining increasing calls to regulate cryptocurrency (see Coindesk and CBS News). This is about as international as it gets, and whatever this article's inclusion standards are, it should meet it unless it's specifically prejudiced against the international industry that is the cryptocurrency industry. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support InvadingInvader's arguments overall. It's not just because of the direct impact on the crypto world, it affected quite a lot of markets and the savings of millions of people. Sam Bankman-Fried was a fairly notable (even if fraudulent) business figure, with considerable media coverage. But I do understand it might not be that massive to warrant inclusion in the 2022 article itself, perhaps 2020s in economic history instead? FelipeFritschF (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
• Include. Cryptocurrencies have gained far more importance in recent years, and this is clearly a landmark moment in their development, so the FTX collapse seems notable enough for inclusion. Wjfox2005 (talk) 10:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
• Include. I wish you were joking but it seems you're not, InvadingInvader. This is a blatantly notable event, possibly one of the most notables of the year and certainly the most notable in the field of exchanges & markets. Personally, I'm surprised anyone would dispute this. -The Gnome (talk) 12:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
• Exclude because it's nowhere near important enough. Trading (by companies or individuals) in extremely high-risk, pseudocurrencies is choosing to involve themselves in a fringe product that is obviously likely to rapidly incur huge losses, which will likely include bankruptcy. It's nothing like as important or mainstream as food & water supply, inflation or mortgages, which affect a high proportion of the population. Adding this would wedge open the door for many more business events to be added. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying that an exchange that was recently valued at $32 billion getting wiped out is a usual and "not important" event? The exchange still owes over $3.5 billion to its creditors, on top of that. Where else this year or in the previous last years did we witness such an implosion? -The Gnome (talk) 16:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say it's usual, but being unusual doesn't grant notability. Crypto is on the fringe of finance. The vast majority of people are unaffected by & unaware of this bankruptcy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

This is FALSE. International news media (see my original comment in this RFC and the previous discussion's comments for sources) are covering the drama and economic fallout of FTX and Sam Bankman-Fried. My phone has nearly all the major news sources on it, and I'm getting notification after notification about SBF and FTX and stuff that started with this chain of events. And my phone has (either through their own apps or Apple News) Bloomberg, BBC, CNBC, Fox News, CNN, CBS, France24, Al Jazeera, the Atlantic, NYTimes, CNET, SCMP, and too many others to mention. When I log on to European and Asian sources, FTX is covered across the WORLD. These sources not only cover what's happening with SBF himself, but also, as I've cited in the previous discussion, stories of people (like Southeast Asia) who have LOST ALMOST ALL THEIR MONEY TO THIS COLLAPSE. There's no denying that this is less than notable unless you're using WP:IDONTLIKEIT or some other justification which intends to subliminally (or overtly for that matter) downplay a notable international industry. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:56, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

This argument is more akin to WP:IDONTLIKEIT with regards to cryptocurrency rather than attempting to deny notability. It's your choice IRL whether to invest in it or not. But that doesn't mean it should not garner a sentence or two on this article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Try me mentioning it to people who don't follow financial news. They won't know what you're talking about & won't care. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Is this honestly an argument? Almost all the people I know are completely clueless about marine biology. And I mean they do not follow it at all!! Talk to them about marine biology and they won't know what you're talking about and won't care. So, what do you suggest we do with marine biology articles in Wikipedia? And don't get me started on topology. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

We have very few articles in main year articles that are about marine biology or topology. I disagree with a move towards including more business stories. There should be subarticles such as 2022 in business and finance for that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

• Exclude per Jim Michael. Nothing else to add. It is by far not the most important business news this year. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:57, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Exactly - in comparison to the massive increase in inflation, it's a minnow of a story. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• Nope. Nothing "massive" about the price increase, nor anything exceptional comparatively. The price index rose 5.87% between 2021 and 2022. This means that the purchasing power of $1 in 2021 would equal the purchasing power of $1.06 in 2022, a difference of six cents. Where's the "mass" you're talking about? Only in loaded opinions unsupported by arithmetic. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Many countries have far higher inflation than that this year - the highest for decades - significantly affecting many millions of people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

True but this does not mean the FTX collapse is not worth including. Having the FTX collapse in the article does not affect the importance or the notability of the inflationary phenomena. You are essentially arguing that, alhtough the FTX collapse has indeed being reported in many sources, the event is not as important as another event. That's not a valid argument; this is not a list of the single most important events in every field. It's an article about a year's main events; note the plural. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)-The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

• Btw, in the previous discussion there was a majority consensus to exclude the inclusion of this news item. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:59, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• There wasn't a consensus to include. A narrow majority doesn't create a consensus. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
• It was no consensus; 3v3. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
• You are bringing to the discussion false information, _-_Alsor. Every RfC is a serious affair. We're supposed to treat them more seriously than that.-The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

• The FTX collapse was quite evidently a notable event, _-_Alsor. Perhaps it was "not the most important business news this year" but, on the basis of the voluminous evidence available (the sources provided are a small sample), it certainly is a notable one. If you're of the opinion that we offer the most important and notable event, that opinion would be wrong. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you accept that it's nowhere near as important as inflation? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Both are important and notable events of the year and both deserve space in the year's article. Inflation is a phenomenon affecting more people, so it's more important. But that does not affect the FTX event's own notability. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

• Include.(Summoned by bot) And frankly, this looks pretty close to an issue that should have been resolved as WP:SNOW: there is clear WP:WEIGHT in reliable sources, with many financial sector experts and industry press clearly identifying this as by far the largest Ponzi scheme in history and likening it (disfavorably no less) to the collapse of Enron, in terms of scope, malfeasance, and impact. Not only do we have nothing less than thousands of reliable sources covering the ongoing and likely future impacts on the investment sector and the near-future viability of cryptocurrency, among numerous other knock-on effects, but also the response of regulators and legislatures across the globe. This is not even a remotely close call: this is easily one of the most WP:DUE topics for inclusion in this particular article. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 19:05, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

This whole discussion is built on this company having been legitimate & hit by unexpected, unjustified misfortune. If the whole thing's a Ponzi scheme & the company was never legitimate, that'd put it in a very different light. That'd make this company's collapse an organised crime event rather than a legitimate business event. I take more notice of financial news than most people do, yet I've only heard of FTX since it went bankrupt last month. The vast majority of people haven't heard of this company; it lasted 3 years & had about 300 employees. Enron lasted 16 years & had over 20,000 employees. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

"This whole discussion is built on this company having been legitimate & hit by unexpected, unjustified misfortune."

I don't see how this discussion is or should be about such a supposed perception. I certainly don't see anyone predicating their include !vote above as being in any way connected with whether or not the company is sympathetic. In fact, I don't see anyone even suggesting they are sympathetic. Nor nefarious for that matter. Rather the !votes general seem (and in any event mine certainly is) predicated on the only obvious outcome of the actual policy test here; WP:WEIGHT.

"If the whole thing's a Ponzi scheme & the company was never legitimate, that'd put it in a very different light. That'd make this company's collapse an organised crime event rather than a legitimate business event."

"Ponzi scheme" is exactly the framing that numerous primary and secondary sources are using to describe the venture. But again, this isn't even relevant to the policy test for inclusion here: we really don't care what your own analysis of the facts, or the subjective importance you ascribe the events or particulars. What matters is the weight and objective notability, as judged by coverage in WP:reliable sources. And this is easily one of the most reported upon events of the year, with dimensions that are likely to have lasting impacts in relevant markets, and well beyond the concerns of just crypto enthusiasts.

You seem to think (apparently without having stopped to check the breadth and depth of coverage on this event) that this is some sort of niche interest story, only of concern to such crypto boosters. But it's really not: this is getting coverage in nightly news, in long-form investigative journalism, in newspapers, in industry press, in the general press, on talk shows, all over social media; numerous regulatory probes are underway in numerous countries; there are ongoing congressional hearings. I'm not sure if you follow the financial news (or even the news) as above the norm as you think if you never heard about this company until a month ago, because it had a huge profile even before the colossal crash at the end: the cryptocurrency itself was broadly promoted by celebrities through traditional media channels and online: that's part of why the story is so big.

I'm sorry, but pretty much every word of your objection immediately above and your own !vote further up ("...because it's nowhere near important enough. Trading (by companies or individuals) in extremely high-risk, pseudocurrencies is choosing to involve themselves in a fringe product that is obviously likely to rapidly incur huge losses, which will likely include bankruptcy. It's nothing like as important or mainstream as food & water supply, inflation or mortgages, which affect a high proportion of the population.") are 100% WP:original research: again, we just don't judge these things on the subjective, idiosyncratic value judgments of our individual editors as to why a given topic is or is not important enough to warrant coverage. On any article. Whether you think the people who invested in this product were rubes who should have seen it coming is not at all of value in making a policy-based decision on whether to include the story in this article. Nor is your personal call on how inherently bad the scheme was, in the grand scheme of things. What is relevant is that this is a major financial and legal event, with many dimensions being covered by voluminous discussion in countless sources meeting our WP:RS standard. It's as simple as that. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 01:06, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

This bankruptcy is a niche story about the failure of a dubious company whose business was ultra high-risk trading of a fringe financial product.

You're the first person in this thread to mention that the bankruptcy of FTX was caused by criminality, which is significantly different to a legitimate business unexpectedly failing due to rapidly worsening economic conditions.

You're saying that this story is being discussed by the mainstream media & ordinary people to a similar extent as the sharp increase in inflation? Millions of ordinary people are talking to their families, friends, colleagues, neighbours etc. about inflation. Would you honestly claim that millions of shop assistants, couriers, waiters, bartenders, farmers, builders, labourers, mechanics, plumbers, nurses, secretaries & cleaners are also talking about FTX's bankruptcy? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

• I don't know how to be more clear about this: the analysis, perspective, deductions, suspicions, outlooks, forecasts, reflections, judgments, views, conclusions, and even outright facts known to our editors are all of absolutely no consequence to a determination of whether or not content is WP:DUE for purposes of this project, no matter how well reasoned we think those determinations are. Please see WP:Original research, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT. What you or I or any other editor thinks about the answer to your posited question, it is absolutely irrelevant to the content determination.

So I could absolutely agree with you about the relative importance of this topic versus that on a personal level, and I would still have to oppose your position because we just don't judge inclusion on that sort of criteria. And for good reason: if we were to try to determine what content was due for inclusion in our content based on personal idiosyncratic views, work on virtually every article would creak to a halt as everyone argued the inherent value and WP:TRUTH of their own subjective views. That is why Wikipedia adopted the objective WEIGHT standard for these circumstances instead. I know you're relatively new to the project, and I'm not looking to be curt or dismissive, but this really is Wikipedia 101, bedrock policy based on our oldest principles of community consensus. Arguing for inclusion or omission based on your own first principles is expressly how we do not handle questions of inclusion. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

• Jim Michael 2, your arguments are no doubt well intentioned and honest but, unfortunately, have no merit in such a discussion. This is about what's worth having in this encyclopaedia. A person in ten years time looking up this article, about the year 2022's main events, and not finding any mention of the FTX collapse would be badly served by Wikipedia. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

• Neutral, but leaning towards exclusion as per Alsoriano and Jim Michael. TheScrubby (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
• Include I think that FTX's bankruptcy is much more than a niche story as it can and will seriously affect other crypto exchanges and the way they do their business. While it may be true that most of the general population isn't discussing FTX and its demise, many people are interested or at least familiar with cryptocurrencies, especially bitcoin.Iraniangal777 (talk) 08:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
• Include (Summoned by bot), this is a relatively niche topic (though so is all banking and investment), but within the finance sector it is a major event.it … will seriously affect other crypto exchanges and the way they do their business … … many people are interested or at least familiar with cryptocurrencies. Though likely to be much more cautious about them now. Pincrete (talk) 09:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Banking & investment are mainstream. Most people have heard of crypto, but wouldn't consider having anything to do with it and aren't interested in a crypto company going bust. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

• See [NYT article]. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
• Again: the myriad of sources reporting on the FTX collapse decides the issue. Whether people are generally more interested in other topics does not rob the FTX issue of its own notability. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

• Weak include - I think it is not in the top 10 but exceeds the WP:WEIGHT of many other items here, plus it has real impacts and is not just a hot scandal. Niche interests of finance and tech are particularly affected. Whether there is much wider impact would be something that will be seen in 2023 but for now it seems big enough to include. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
• Comment : Including in the article the obviously (quite) notable event about the FTX collapse does not mean excluding the 2022 phenomenon of inflation, evident in many countries around the world. It is important to have this clarified. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

  I agree...OSE shouldn't be used when it comes to inclusion on this page. I see that argument A LOT on this page. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:21, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:OSE is about comparing things of similar notability. Saying that this is far less important than the large increase in inflation is relevant. If someone said that a rugby, cricket, baseball or tennis tournament should be included, I'd say it shouldn't because it's nowhere near as notable as the FIFA World Cup. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

It isn't necessarily the most productive idea to compare everything to the most notable event of the year sector-wise. An example is comparing an Israeli-Palestinian escalation to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

They should be compared. None of this year's events of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict are included in this article because they're not important enough. The increase in violence there this spring & summer wasn't unusual & was much less than last year's. Many events of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine are included. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Why should they be compared? Plus, the main year articles do seem to be a tad bit small. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:23, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Because they're events in the same category; in this case, armed conflicts. Main year articles are only for very internationally notable events & people.

Small compared to what? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia's project about articles on years makes it explicit that there is never the case whereby editors choose one or even "just a few events" for inclusion. It is sufficient to have the FTX assessed as one of the most notable events of 2022 to include it, along with other notable events. -The Gnome (talk) 13:17, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying there should be a quota of events of each topic. I disagree that FTX's bankruptcy is one of the most notable events of the year. It's pushing it to say that it's one of the most notable financial stories of the year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

• It's absolutely not THE MOST notable event of the whole year (that title probably would go Ukraine), but it's notable enough for inclusion. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
• If the most notable event of 2022 in the field of finance & economics was the inflationary phenomenon, Jim Michael 2, care to offer the second most notable event? -The Gnome (talk) 21:30, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The sharp decline in Russia's economy due to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine as well as international sanctions & international businesses pulling out in response to it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Would you say FTX is in the Top 5? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 08:48, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps one of the top 5 business/finance stories of 2022, but certainly not one of the top 5 stories of the year overall - probably not top 100. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• If we count ongoing or long-lasting major events each as one big event each (like Ukraine, Inflation, the World Cup, the UK Government crisis), FTX would definitely be top 100. Most of the top 100 would be notable Russian-Ukrainian attacks and strikes, roughly simultaneous interest rate hikes across many central banks, the numerous events composing of Queen Elizabeth’s funeral, and stuff like that. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:44, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Several deaths of celebrities are in also in the top 100 stories of the year, as are several elections, several disasters, several mass murders, several protests/riots & many sports events. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the fields of currencies or finance. -The Gnome (talk) 17:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't saying they are. I was replying to II's comments about the top 100 events of the year, which is relevant when deciding what to include in a main year article. Being the most important, second-most important etc. in its category/field doesn't make it automatically important enough. If it did, we'd have a quota for dozens of fields, some of them fairly trivial. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

• The first ever significant set-back in the realm of crypto-currencies, Jim Michael 2, is not among the five most significant 2022 events in Economics and Finance?!? You can't be serious. As to your latest argument, you're using events from irrelevant categories (what does Queen Elizabeths funeral have to do with the financial markets?!) and you're crowding the field by treating items separately though they're part of one single event as far as the realm of finance is concerned: the war in Ukraine begat inflation and interest rate rises). The abundance of sources verifying the universal notability of the FTX collapse refutes all arguments against its inclusion in the year's round up. -The Gnome (talk) 17:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I said perhaps it's one of the top 5, because it depends how you're measuring. Are the declines in the Russian & Ukrainian economies part of the war or different stories? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

There is one main event and then there are the direct consequences of it. We can have it all as one event, or we can have it as two, one being the war itself, and the other its consequences. In any case, the war in the Ukraine is most certainly the major event of 2022, in all fields, but, in the realm of Economics in general or Financial Markets in particular, the FTX collapse is as significant as the appearance itself of cryptocurrencies. -The Gnome (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

If this bankruptcy is as significant (or anywhere near as significant) as the appearance of cryptocurrencies, then a great deal of info relating to it needs to be added to cryptocurrency, including to its lead. Neither FTX nor its bankruptcy are mentioned in that article at all. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:19, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Then let's mention the bankruptcy both there and on this article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:06, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

They resulted from the war and are closely tied enough to the war. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

• Include per InvadingInvader. The The FTX collapse is a notable event. Nemov (talk) 15:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Closure request

As of a few minutes ago relative to the publishing of this note, I've put in a closure request at Wikipedia:Closure requests due to a relatively very quick consensus developing above. Some editors, as mentioned in closing comment, have suggested that this is a case in which WP:SNOW applies. Thanks! InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:50, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Collage images (Result: all original proposals rejected)

I think the collage isn't the best. It doesn't really summarize the most well known moments of the year well. I think there are a few things that we should change:

• Winter Olympics should be replaced with FIFA Word Cup 2022. A lot of people weren't even aware that the winter olympics happened.
• The Kazakh protest should be replaced with the Iran protests. I think we all know which one got/has gotten more attention.
• The Afghan earthquake should be replaced with the Peru coup attempt.
• The Sri Lanka protests should be replaced with protests against the Dobbs v. Jackson decision.
• Abe's assassination should be replaced with Liz Truss' resignation speech
• I also think there could be a better photo used for the Ukraine War TRJ2008 (talk) 17:14, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

For the most part I agree. I have some concerns, though:

1. Abe is more important.

2. A better photo could be used for the Ukrainian war.

3. Rediscuss Dobbs v. Jackson in an RFC if you want. There are quite a few editors who are extremely opposed to Dobbs being removed :(I'm personally more on the include side, but definitely not in collage).

Anyways, just my thoughts. Otherwise, I like your idea. Thanks for suggesting! InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you really think that the resignation of Liz Truss is more notorious than the assassination of Abe? And more important the demonstrations over a court decision with a much smaller impact/interest globally than the protests that brought down the HoS and HoG of Sri Lanka? I would agree to replace the Kazah protests with the Iran protests, but not with the rest you propose (without questioning your good faith in this proposal, of course). _-_Alsor (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

The main reason i think of putting truss' resignation is because i think it kinda falls into the "Collapse of the UK narrative. I think watching UK news this year has just felt like the entire country is collapsing, and since the UK is a global power i think it fits. On dobbs i think because of the amount of people who visit America just to get an abortion, it has more global impact than the Sri Lanka protests. Not to say the Sri Lanka protests aren't important, but I think more people are affected by the dobbs decision. TRJ2008 (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

None of the UK events are international enough. If by 'collapsing' you mean economically, many countries are in worse financial difficulties. The D v J protests were domestic & had no effect, which are two reasons that they're not in the article, let alone important enough for the collage. The 2022 Sri Lankan protests resulted in the government resigning & being replaced. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Winter Olympics definitely need to be replaced with FIFA though. Especially after yesterday TRJ2008 (talk) 13:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

The 2022 Kazakh unrest is far more notable than the Mahsa Amini protests, even though the latter has lasted far longer & received far more media coverage. Coup attempts aren't important enough to be in collages. Domestic protests shouldn't be in collages, especially when they didn't change anything. Nothing involving Truss is important enough for the collage. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose all proposals as per Alsoriano and Jim Michael, although if there’s space I’d certainly prioritise the Mahsa Amini protests over Dobbs v. Jackson, which is easily the least notable of all the 2022 protests mentioned. TheScrubby (talk) 02:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The collage can only include things that are in the article. None of the Iranian protests are, because they're primarily domestic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

That's actually false. There is an entry on Mahsa Amini already in the month of September. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think 'protests' work for a lead image at all. In almost all cases, photos of indistinguishable people in a crowd really add no information to an article. Unless an image is particularly iconic like Tank Man or the fall of the statue of Saddam etc. JeffUK (talk) 14:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Please remove the image of the Kazakh protest to reduce the cluttering. Deb (talk) 12:06, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Mahsa Amini protests (Result: included in the article, but not on the collage)

These protests were domestic in their early days, but became international when they spread outside Iran & international sanctions were imposed on Iran due to the their gov's response to the protests. Should they be in the article? If so, should they be in the collage? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Include in the article, neutral (lean exclude) in the collage. The ongoing actions of both the Iranian Government and the ongoing reactions internationally make the Iranian situation the most notable protest of 2022, edging out even Kazakhstan's unrest. Protests have erupted not only across the Islamic Republic but across the world; I myself ran into one on Market Street in San Francisco. I'm usually in favor of including notable large protests which garner international coverage, especially those against authoritarian governments, and this more than exceeds that threshold. That being said, JeffUK makes a good point on images; unless there is a "tank man" photo for a protest, it's difficult to justify inclusion. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

These have gained the most media coverage & have the highest death toll of all this year's protests, but the 2022 Kazakh unrest & 2022 Sri Lankan protests are each more notable because they led to their governments being replaced. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

We can include all of them then. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Gilbert Gottfried (Result: excluded as per previous discussions on Gottfried)

Gilbert Gottfried should be added to deaths section Apr 12 2022 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.214.201.41 (talk) 13:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done because he's not internationally notable enough - see FAQ & archives. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Terry Hall (Result: exclusion)

British musician and singer Terry Hall died on 18th December: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Hall_(singer) 86.1.160.100 (talk) 17:39, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Is he internationally notable enough to include? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jim Michael 2 - Rated Mid-Importance by WikiProject Reggae, which to me would suggest that the answer to that question is "yes". casualdejekyll 19:02, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Project ratings don't indicate the subject's level of international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:35, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done casualdejekyll 19:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be far more appropriate to have a discussion on his inclusion before arbitrarily including him. TheScrubby (talk) 20:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Does Terry Hall have the substantial international notability for inclusion on the main yearly pages? TheScrubby (talk) 20:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

He's one of many examples of musicians who don't have significant individual international notability, but whose bands do. How do we measure their level of contribution to their bands? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

In this case, even his bands arguably doesn't have substantial international notability - the most notable is The Specials, and while they did have some international chart success, their success and popularity was by and large localised to the UK. They also won no major international musical awards. I'd honestly lean towards Exclude in this case. TheScrubby (talk) 23:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Are there any other musicians currently in this article who you think shouldn't be, or any that aren't currently in it that you think should be? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

He was too localized in his chart success, but Google Trends data shows (prior to his death) he had European followings. Substance seems on the lower end, so I would say Borderline Exclude with the evidence so far InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:15, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

i12 Katong (Result: exclusion)

There is an request for an event to be added:

• “23 June – i12 Katong shopping mall is officially reopened by Keppel Land after nearly 2 years of renovation.”

It is a notable event moment. — 12.171.253.138 (talk) 01:01, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done because it's a domestic event for 2022 in Singapore. This article is for international events. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 07:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

This wouldn't even meet the notability criteria for that. It's just a mall. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Malls are renovated every year, it's not at all notable. Unless this particular mall is notable for another reason it should be excluded. FireInMe (talk) 22:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

FYI, It's since been removed from 2022 in Singapore. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Does Edgar Savisaar deserve a photo? (Result: not done; interim leaders of nations are not prioritised for images)

He was certainly notable, but I'm not sure if he needs a photo here. Requesting feedback and consensus. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:02, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

No, because he briefly led a country which is small by size, population & power. Some far more notable people have died this month. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

to say that he doesn't deserve it for having served a small country is consciously discriminatory. Being the first prime minister of a country at a turbulent time such as the transition to an independent state is more than notorious. He is certainly one of Estonia's most important politicians. _-_Alsor (talk) 13:23, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Some countries are obviously much more important than others, which substantially affects their leaders' notability. Those are relevant facts, not discrimination. He held the position for five months. Several far more notable people died in Dec; he's not even the most notable politician. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:21, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

By this rule, we would only include –exclusively– politicians from the USA, Germany, France or China. And that's exactly what I thought you wanted to avoid, so I'm surprised, frankly. He's undoubtedly the most important politician to have died in December (bearing in mind that Benedict XVI is more than just a "Vatican politician"). _-_Alsor (talk) 14:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

(Former) heads of state/gov of any country are routinely included in Births & Deaths. We're talking about whose photos to include. Photos are for the most notable only. In the case of politicians, they're rightly disproportionately from powerful countries. How is he more notable than Adolfas Slezevicius, who was leader of his country for nearly 3 years? We don't include a politician's photo for every month. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:51, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

As I have emphasized before, Saavisar led the interim government of Estonia (albeit for a few months) at a time when the Estonian Supreme Council declared independence in 1991 from Soviet Union. The difference with Šleževičiu is that, the latter, ruled Lithuania once it was already independent and no extraordinary events beyond the ordinary management of executive power and its consequences. Nor did I say that we have to have one photo of a politician for every month. (Oh, and I know perfectly well how Year in Topic works, we have collaborated many times here...). _-_Alsor (talk) 15:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Did Savisaar do anything particularly important as PM? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Lead the country during its transition to a post-Soviet sovereign state. And this is no small feat. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:22, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

In any case, if all taged entries are removed, I don't think there will be enough room for a third photo. And, if there's still room, what alternative do you propose? _-_Alsor (talk) 17:27, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

As a reminder to participants, this isn't about the inclusion of him as an entry. This is about him having a photo. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely. Edgar Savisaar belongs to this article here, leading a newly independent country is NOT a small feat. MarioJump83 (talk) 22:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

No-one's disputing him being in Deaths. The discussion is about whether or not he should have a photo. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

My preference is Vivienne Westwood over Edgar Savisaar, as her fashion is more notable worldwide, but this really depends on the importance tag and if there's a space to do so. I'm OK with the inclusion depending on these factors. MarioJump83 (talk) 22:45, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

His photo has been removed & replaced with Barbara Walters. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:28, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree on this one. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - not because he led a country that's small in size, population and power, but because he was a caretaker leader. We don't include photos of heads of government/state who only served on an interim basis, even if they served during times of significant change. Have no issue with his inclusion otherwise. TheScrubby (talk) 12:41, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Kazuki Takahashi (Result: no consensus for inclusion)

Let's settle down on this, should he be included on 2022 deaths? His work is considered to be notable worldwide internationally in regards to trading card games, and it is a big part of our childhoods. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

I'd say borderline include. Japanese culture, just like crypto, is niche, but based on Mario's comments and my brief investigations, he's notably important to the niche InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Exclude - manga is popular internationally, but not worldwide. Trading cards are nowhere near important enough to grant someone inclusion on main year articles. He doesn't have anywhere near enough international notability for main year articles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:13, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

You said the same thing about FTX but that ended up being included. Through that, it’s established widely that niche doesn’t equal not notable. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:41, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Many thousands of people are important to their field. We don't have quotas. What's his international notability? His only significant award is an Inkpot Award; how can that be significant enough? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:56, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Not a Japanese culture fan, but creating Yu Gi Oh, among the most popular franchises/brands ever and the present Guinness world record holder for most popular trading card game, meets the notability criteria. You’re looking at formal awards only and not legacy, Jim. Look more. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:32, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

The same could be said for the creators of many domestic franchises which are popular in other countries. Try mentioning him to people who aren't Japanese or fans of manga/anime.

Being a record holder for something trivial is nowhere near important enough. It's nothing like the notability of winning the most Academy Awards or for running a marathon in the fastest time. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:50, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

So being the creator of the most popular of a type of thing in the WORLD is not notable? You can't be serious Jim. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:59, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Not when it's trivial. Hundreds of people are the creator of the most popular something in the world. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 06:41, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Let's include all of them then. They didn't all die in 2022. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Why add the creators of the most popular of each thing to the Birth & Death sections of main year articles? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

They created something internationally notable. In terms of subcultures, the fandom of Japanese comics and cartoons is among the largest in the world. It's worldwide, and nearly every country except for North Korea (maybe) the Vatican City/Holy See has devout fans to the subculture. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You're sure that manga, anime etc. are very popular across Africa? You're sure that he's one of the top figures of that field? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure that Yu-Gi-Oh has popularity in Africa in parts of the world where people are fortunate enough to access the internet in the first place, and while Takahashi's name maybe not known, his creation is. His entry should include mentioning he was the creator of Yu-Gi-Oh. Don't forget that Africa doesn't just include the stereotype of poor countries but also more connected and sometimes more well-off nations like the North African Arabian countries (Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria), South Africa, and the more well-off areas of large African cities like Lagos, Dakar, Dar Es Salam, Rwanda, and Nairobi. Every inhabited continent has at least some anime fans and followers, and it's not too far of a stretch to say that Takahashi has at least one or two fans among the relatively few hundred Antarctica scientists stationed there. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:27, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Internationally and worldwide btw are practically synonyms. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:12, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

They're substantially different, because international means multiple countries whereas worldwide means all countries. For example, rugby is international but not worldwide; football is worldwide. We don't include any rugby tournaments on main year articles, but we include some football tournaments. Manga & anime are popular in some countries but not others. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 00:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Niche doesn't mean not notable, Jim. You're being too strict in your inclusion criteria. Not everything on this article has to be Pope Benedict. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:39, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Exclude Some of these are tough, but this person isn't famous enough. The card game is notable, but it's far from a household name. I doubt many people actually know the name of the person who created it. Nemov (talk) 23:00, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, very few non-Japanese, non manga/anime fans would recognise his name. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 00:48, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Niche doesn't mean not notable. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I didn't know much about him either, nor people around me know him. I just happen to know his name after the death. MarioJump83 (talk) 01:51, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards borderline inclusion, but I'm okay with him not being included either. Anime/Manga, just like crypto, is niche if we're being real here. Anime/Manga is not that popular in India and Africa when compared to K-Pop, and K-Pop is also niche at a similar scale. MarioJump83 (talk) 02:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards exclusion because it doesn't sound like he's a really major figure in the context of manga/anime - I mean by comparison with others in the field - though obviously there is some international awareness of his work. The acid test would be if another figure known for similar work died during the year and there was debate about which of them was more important. I mean, like comparing David Bowie with Gerry Rafferty or something. Deb (talk) 08:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

They don't need to have died during the same year to be compared. Bowie died just over 5 years after Rafferty & I can't imagine anyone disputing that Bowie's notability is far higher. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

While I lean towards Neutral here, if Takahashi is included, it would call into question the exclusion of the authors of Doraemon, who are of comparable notability in roughly the same field. TheScrubby (talk) 07:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)