Talk:Albertus Soegijapranata

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Albertus Soegijapranata/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Grapple X (talk · contribs) 05:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   I'm not sure the boilerplate {{Indonesian name}} is best here; it works for Suharno et al due to the obvious mononym but you might want to explain more specifically here as a reader may assume more readily that "Albertus Soegijapranata" is a western name.
   Is Suharno an amalgamation of Sukarno and Suharto? Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   I believe so. In my defence, letters all look the same at 6 AM...
   On the subject of names, I assume he was born Soegija, perhaps this could be clarified somewhere? If I'm correct, then perhaps changing "better known as simply Soegija" to "better known simply by his birth name Soegija" would accomplish this painlessly.
   Done — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   " whose name was derived from the the Javanese word "soegih", meaning rich" -> elsewhere you have non-English words in italics, rather than quote marks; that method would work just as well here.
   Done — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "Soegija was a daring child, quick to fight, good at association football, and noted for his intellect from a young age.[7] and while still young his father had him fast, in accordance with Islamic law.[5]" -> I'm not sure if there's the beginning of a sentence missing here or not. I'd drop the "and" after ref 7 there and start a sentence at "while".
   Right, done
   "In a letter date 11 August 1923" -> dated.
   Done — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   I'm not sure if "proceeds" would be the best word to describe the issuances from the Eucharistic Congress; perhaps "issuances", "sermons" or even "messages" might work. "Proceeds" holds a connotation of monetary donations or earnings, which I'm sure isn't meant to be considered here.
   Results? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   Sure. GRAPPLE X 08:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "After his ordination, Soegija took on the word pranata, meaning "prayer" or "hope", on the back of his name" -> bit of repetition with "on", perhaps word "on the back on his name" to "as a suffix to his name".
   Done — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   Is there any information on why his autobiography was released in those three languages? I'm surprised it wasn't printed in Javanese given that he taught it at the time.
   Nothing in the source, and the others don't mention it. I'm assuming it was targeted at Europeans, possibly other Jesuits. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "a wide-spread area" - drop "-spread" here.
    — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   Not sure we need Paul VI's full name there, unless he used the full length of it regularly; I'd probably just shorten it to "Giovanni Battista Montini" as his article does.
   Makes sense. I have little idea how to deal with such names (I think one further south may need a trimming too) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   Usually ust the first and last would work fine in those situations. Us Catholics hoard names like Smaug's gold but we never actually use them all. GRAPPLE X 08:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "This was forwarded to Soegijapranata in Yogyakarta, who agreed to the appointment,[44] despite being surprised and nervous;[47] his assistant Hardjosoewarno later recalled that Soegijapranata cried after reading the telegram – something he was not prone to doing – and, when eating a bowl of soto, asked if Hardjosoewarno had ever seen a bishop eating the dish.[48]" -> I'd break this into two sentences after "nervous". Might also be worth clarifying if crying or reading telegrams was the uncommon bit; I assume the former but the flow leans towards the latter. Perhaps "Soegijapranata cried after reading the telegram – a response he was not prone to".
   I like it. Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "137 brothers (103 European, 34 native), and 330 nuns (251 European, 79 native)" -> is there any information on the relevant orders here? I'm just wondering if it was a solid mix or maybe just a small handful; it's not worth probing into if it's not readily there in the sources you're using, and it's only worth a tiny aside even if it is.
   Neither Gonggong nor Subanar (2005) go into further detail, information isn't in the other sources. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "but himself well-treated by the Japanese forces" -> missing a "was" in here.
   Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "to teach the Bible to youth" -> I'd go for "the youth", or even "the young"
   Sure — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "This, along Soegijapranata's support Sukarno's decree on 5 July 1949" -> missing a few words here, assuming it should be "This, along with Soegijapranata's support for Sukarno's decree on 5 July 1949".
   Done — Crisco 1492 (talk)
   "After a stay Elisabeth Candi Hospital in 1963" -> this needs either an "in" or an "at", your call.
   Done — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
   "The film's launch was accompanied by a semi-fictional novelisation of Soegija's life, written by Catholic author Ayu Utami in two weeks." -> Two weeks? I wrote a novel in a month once and it killed me. :/
   I never finished mine :-( — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

   Haven't a problem here.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

   Scope is good.

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   Grand.

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   Yep.

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Images are all grand, though it might be worth seeing about having the lead image (and the one it's cropped from) touched up a little; I can look into that for you if you'd like. Ideally the other image of the man would be better but we've two years yet to wait to fiddle with it.
   I've tried finding free images of him (libraries and dust bunnies, mostly) and yes, the newspapers are in terrible condition... mostly. I've found a couple good images for other subjects that are in good shape, like the newspaper ad for Lewat Djam Malam

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Not a lot needing done here, by me; I can see that a few of the things I've pointed out are likely a result of you working away on this so heavily and missing things with familiar eyes. Shouldn't take long to see to, so I'm sticking this on hold to let you get round it. As for me, I'm going to bed, have to get up in two hours. :/ GRAPPLE X 05:07, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review, replies above. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

  Changes look good, ready to pass this one. Well done! GRAPPLE X 08:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

  Thanks a lot! Cheers! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:12, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Albertus Soegijapranata

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I'd like to try and bring it to FA soon and was wondering what, if anything, is wrong with the article.

Thanks,  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:45, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

• I've been slowly doing a copyedit of the article for the past few days, might want to check my changes. One comment is that the lead looks a bit too long. Also, some of the sentences are a bit wordy, look for ways to possibly tighten them. I can post more peer review comments later, I guess. The article has been a pleasure to read, quite interesting. No Facepalm -level errors encountered yet :) Mark Arsten (talk) 19:45, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
• On sourcing: looks good for the post part. I'm not sure about citing primary sources for sentences about streets named after him, not a big deal, but might be raised at FAC. As far as possible sources, have you looked at This book? It seems like it probably has some coverage of him in it. There's also a chapter on him here, p. 125 looks like Subnar's 2001 thesis, so there's a good chance that it overlaps with his later works. probably worth a glance though. This just has a brief mention, but it raises an interesting point: that protestants were much better off than Catholics, might be interesting to note that in the article. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wow, I missed those. You're right, that 2001 book is Subanar's dissertation (the 2005 book is a translation of it). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
• I trimmed about 300 characters of prose from the lede. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:20, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

• And added about 1000 characters of prose from the two sources above. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

• Commments: Ok, starting the peer review. My apologies in advance if my comments are unclear/scattered.
• Is it customary to have coordinates for a deceased person?

• The grave. Template:Infobox person has "resting_place_coordinates", which this infobox lacks. Can't show a current FA with it off the top of my head.

• I think leads are supposed to be 4 paragraphs max, I'd condense the last two paragraphs.

• How's this?

• "On 2 November 1955 he and several other bishops issued a decree denouncing communism, Marxism, and materialism" Should probably link materialism to make it clear which one is being referred to, Economic materialism or philosophical Materialism.

• Linked

• "Soegijapranata Catholic University in Semarang is named after Soegijapranata." Any way around the repetition of his name here?

• Done

• His grave looks very beautiful, can you add anything more about it?
• Repeat link tool is showing Pope Paul VI and Malang (if they're linked several sections back, don't worry).

• Paul VI is linked under his birth name in #Apostolic vicar and under his papal name at #Archbishop of Semarang and death (fair distance, methinks). Malang is linked in #Apostolic vicar and #Legacy

• "although even as a bishop he retained a bit of Javanese mysticism." Do you discuss this later in the article? If not, you might want to do so.

• None of the sources deal with it.

• "While still young, his father made him fast in accordance with Islamic law." While who was still young, him or his father?

• Done

• "When he complained to his teacher, Father L. van Rijckevorsel, that the Dutch priests were like the Dutch merchants in that they only thought of money, the priest replied that they were unpaid and only hoped for the students' good." This feels a little wordy to me, is there a good way to rephrase?

• Done

• " the latter told him that mankind was not meant to understand God with mankind's limited knowledge." repetition of mankind here.

• Done.

• "Although his nuclear family accepted this, and may have eventually supported him" this is very interesting to me, since they previously seemed very opposed to it. Is there any explanation for their change in the sources?

• Added eventually. I guess it was a fait accompli moment

• "during this period one of the teachers taught the Fourth Commandment" might want to note what the commandment is.

• Done.

• "On another occasion, a visit by a Capuchin missionary – who was physically quite different than the Jesuit teachers – led Soegija to consider becoming a priest, an idea which his parents accepted." What's the significance of the parenthetical comment here?

• Subanar suggests that the Capuchin's beard and darker skin, juxtaposed against the paleness of the Jesuits, made Soegija realise that he could become a priest.

• The above is a few points that occurred to me when reading it earlier, and focused comments on the first two sections. I'll try not to make you wait too long, but I am a slow reviewer sometimes :) Mark Arsten (talk) 16:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
• "Soegija and his classmates sailed to Uden, in the Netherlands, to further their studies in 1919, departing from Tanjung Priok in Batavia." Is the "departing from..." part necessary?

• Not really

• "After joining the Jesuits Soegija spent another year in Mariëndaal in juniorate. Beginning in 1923 he studied philosophy at Berchmann College in Oudenbosch.[22] During this time he examined the teachings of Thomas Aquinas. Soegija began writing on Christianity." There are some short sentences here, maybe try to combine some?

• Done

• "and further writings were published in St. Claverbond, Berichten uit Java." further writings "of his"?

• Done.

• "Swaratama, which circulated mainly among Xaverius alumni" Might want to explain that at the magazine's first mention.

• Done.

• " He also travelled during his studies" I'd consider removing this, kinda trivial. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:39, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Was meant as an introduction to the next sentence, but I see your point. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Starting up again, sorry for the delay. A few more comments, mainly focused on wording that might be raised by FAC reviewers.
• "Soegijapranata opposed marriage between Catholics and non-Catholics,[43] and began counselling young Catholic couples before marriage; he believed that these unions helped unite the Catholic families in the city." You mention two types of unions before the semicolon, so I think the "these unions" might be ambiguous.

• Done.

• "On 1 August 1940 Willekens received a telegram from Cardinal Giovanni Battista Montini ordering that Soegijapranata be put in charge of the newly established apostolic vicariate." & "From the older priest Soegijapranata learned how to better address the needs of his parish, while van Driessche likely used Soegijapranata to preach to the city's growing native Catholic population" Suggest rephrasing these, i.e. "On 1 August 1940 Cardinal Giovanni Battista Montini sent" & "The older (or is it elder?) priest taught"

• 1st one: Not done: he could have sent / written it another day
• 2nd one: Done

• "Soegijapranata left for Semarang on 30 September 1940 and was consecrated by Willekens on 6 October at the Holy Rosary Church in Randusari, which later became his seat.[48][50] The ceremony was attended by numerous political figures and sultans, from Batavia, Semarang, Yogyakarta, and Surakarta, as well as clergy from Malang and Lampung;[48] this consecration made Soegijapranata the first native Indonesian bishop." I suggest combining the second part of the second sentence with the first sentence.

• Agree. Done.

• "There were also several Catholic groups, mostly working in education." Were these lay groups?

• The source doesn't explicitly state it, but there was the Catholic-backed Kanisius Foundation (mostly lay, although there may have been a few clergy; Sindhunata, who wrote the book I analysed for my undergraduate degree, is ordained and works there) and there were numerous ordained ministers serving as teachers.

• "After the Japanese occupied the Indies in early 1942, against which the colonial military could do little to resist, on 9 March 1942 Governor-General Tjarda van Starkenborgh Stachouwer and head of the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army General Hein ter Poorten capitulated. " Is the portion inside the commas needed?

• Not particularly, unless you want to know why Stachouwer gave up so easily.

• "Despite this, the Catholic Church remained among the most independent religious institution in the country." This reads somewhat awkwardly to me.

• Can't think of a way to reword it, hidden

• "Soegijapranata was unable to prevent Japanese torture of prisoners of war, including the clergy,[j][69] but was himself well-treated by the Japanese forces; he was often invited to Japanese ceremonies, but never attended, sending bouquets in his stead.[70] He used this position of respect to ensure fair treatment of those interred." The mention of torture in the first sentence seems to contradict the claim that he ensured fair treatment in the second. Maybe, "He used this position of respect to lobby for fair treatment of those interred"

• Right, right, done.

• "He successfully petitioned the Japanese overlords to allow nuns to work at hospitals and to not participate in the paramilitary draft." I'd suggest "He successfully petitioned the Japanese overlords to exempt nuns from the paramilitary draft and to allow them to work at hospitals."

• Done

• "Soegijapranata kept in contact with the prisoners, supplying them with news and other information" I'd end the sentence after news or be more specific about the other information.

• How's this? Reread it, appears he received news too.

• Not sure if the date of Father Hardjawasita's ordination is really relevant.

• That he was still green is probably worth mentioning, as it shows how desperate Soegijapranata was

• " In May 1942 he became the first non-Caucasian person to consecrate a European bishop." This is very interesting, can you say more about it? Also, it doesn't really flow with the surrounding sentences. Maybe give it its own paragraph. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:17, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• I'd love to find more about it. I'll have to open Google, because non of the Indonesian biographies mention it.

• Nothing else to verify this, hidden — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:23, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

• "proclamation of Indonesian independence in August 1945,[78] the Japanese began withdrawing from the newly proclaimed Indonesia." Repetition of "proclamation... proclaimed"

• Done.

• "he did not formally recognise the nation's independence." Do we know why not?

• Done.

• "Meanwhile, inter-religious strife led to the burning of several mission buildings and the murder of some clergymen." Which religion(s) was doing the burning and murdering?

• Done.

• "In Semarang, this led to a conflict between Japanese forces and Indonesian rebels, beginning on 15 October; the Indonesians aimed to confiscate the Japanese weapons." I'd suggest "that began" for clarity.

• Done

• " despite Indonesian forces' firing at the Gurkha soldiers posted out front." Out front of what?

• Of the church at Gedangan

• "The city's government was, however, still unable to cope," Is there a more specific way to say this than "unable to cope"?

• How's this?

• "However, in early 1947 he moved to Yogyakarta, allowing easy communication with the political leadership." Who is "he" here and in the next sentence? Mark Arsten (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• Done.

• Thanks for looking! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
• Watch for repetition of "also began" (and possible overuse of "also" in general).

• Got rid of eight or so.

• Might want to briefly note the nature of "Pancasila" here.

• How's this?

• This almost starts to read like a list of accomplishments in parts. I guess that's hard to avoid, but try to keep an eye on neutrality.

• Anywhere particularly egregious? I'm limited by the sources, of course.

• "wrote that the Indonesian people continued to suffer and blamed the Netherlands' Catholic National Party for souring relations between the two countries" What's the relevance of the Indonesian's suffering here? Was that contributed to by the Dutch in West Papua?

• How's this?

• Also, who is John Galt Mr. Kasimo?

• He's noted above as being a leader in the Catholic Party

• "When this happened, Soegijapranata was in Europe to attend the Second Vatican Council, beginning with its plenary sessions, as part of the Central Preparatory Commission;" Is the bit about it beginning with Plenary sessions needed here?

• Not especially

• "He then returned to Indonesia, but his health quickly declined; his strength had been weakening since the late 1950s." I'm trying to think of a tighter way to say "his strength had been weakening since the late 1950s" nothing's coming to me though

• "He then returned to Indonesia, but his health, poor since the late 1950s, quickly declined."?

• Where is the Elisabeth Candi Hospital?

• Done

• "written by Catholic author Ayu Utami in two weeks" Is the two weeks bit too much detail here?

• Not especially

• "The writer Anhar Gonggong described Soegijapranata as not just a bishop," Is he a Catholic writer or a historian?

• Historian (went to the same university I will go to, apparently)

• " Van Klinken writes that Soegijapranata eventually became like a priyayi, or Javanese nobleman, within the church, as "committed to hierarchy and the status quo as to the God who created them",[120] and that by coming to the nascent republic Soegijapranata had been willing to see "the coming Javanese paradise" at a great personal risk" This sentence is a bit long, I'd try to break it up. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

• Done

• I think that's it, thanks for looking this over. Hope Chinese Indonesians hurries up :-( — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:16, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

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