Talk:Alexander the Great in legend
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Alexander the Great in Malay Culture
editPage 47
Hikayat Hang Tuah. We have seen that he had been using historical writings in his work. Winstedt has already noticed that elements from Panji-stories had been used and besides that traces of Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain and Hikayat Seri ...
Title Journal of the Malaysian Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, Volume 43 Contributor Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Malaysian Branch Publisher The Branch, 1970 Original from the University of California Digitized Sep 15, 2009
Page 95
In tiny letters is written: Juru tulis J a' in Abdurrahman yang tulis ini hikayat pada bulan Dzulkaedah 1235. Figure 2. Initial page of Leiden University Library Cod. Or. 23.264, Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain. The text reads: AUdssah maka ...
Title Indonesia Circle, Issues 68-70 Contributor Indonesia Circle (University of London. School of Oriental and African Studies) Publisher Indonesia Circle, School of Oriental and African Studies, 1996 Original from the University of Virginia Digitized Feb 21, 2011
Page 26
Called Iskandar Dzulkarnain, Alexander is given a Muslim colouring. In the Malay version of this legend, Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain , Alexander is portrayed as a propagator of Islam and a king who conquers the world "from where the sun ...
Title Bunga rampai, aspects of Malay culture Author Mohd. Taib Osman Publisher Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka, Kementerian Pelajaran, Malaysia, 1988 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized May 20, 2008 ISBN 9836206337, 9789836206336 Length 285 pages
Page 59
In the Malay version of this legend, Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain, Alexander is portrayed as a propagator of Islam and a king who conquers the world ... But Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain also serves the royal Malay court in a different way.
Title Asian Pacific Quarterly of Cultural and Social Affairs, Volumes 3-4 Contributor Cultural and Social Centre for the Asian and Pacific Region Publisher Cultural and Social Centre for the Asian and Pacific Region., 1971 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Sep 15, 2009
Page 47
Hikayat Hang Tuah. We have seen that he had been using historical writings in his work. Winstedt has already noticed that elements from Panji-stories had been used and besides that traces of Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain and Hikayat Seri ...
Title Journal of the Malaysian Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, Volume 43, Part 1 Contributors Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Malaysian Branch, Singapore, Project Muse Published 1970 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Apr 25, 2008
Page 90
On his journeys he meets the prophet Khaidir, who foretells the future to him in the same way as the prophet does to Raja Iskandar Dzulkarnain in Hikayat Iskandar, one of the numerous Malay tales dealing with the adventures of Muslim ...
Title We are playing relatives: a survey of Malay writing Volume 215 of Verhandelingen van het Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde Author Hendrik M. J. Maier Publisher KITLV Press, 2004 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Aug 31, 2007 ISBN 9067182176, 9789067182171 Length 542 pages
Page 23
The chronicles Hikayat Raja Pasai and Sejarah Melayu are the principal indicators of the state of Early Muslim literature. ... the Hikayat Amir Hamzah ( Samad Ahmad 1987) and the Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain (Van Leeuwen 1937; Khalid ...
Title The system of classical Malay literature
Volume 11 of Working papers - Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal- Land en Volkenkunde
Kitlv Working Paper, No 11
Volume 11 of Working papers
Volume 11 of Werkdocumenten (Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde (Netherlands)))
Author V. I. Braginskiĭ
Publisher KITLV Press, 1993
Original from the University of Virginia
Digitized Oct 3, 2007
ISBN 9067180602, 9789067180603
Length 131 pages
Subjects Literary Criticism › Asian › General
Literary Collections / Asian Literary Criticism / Asian / General Malay literature Malay literature/ To 1900/ History and criticism http://books.google.com/books?id=v64iAAAAMAAJ&q=Hikayat+iskandar+zulkarnain&dq=Hikayat+iskandar+zulkarnain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T_THUMO-GIj-0gHB-IDYCw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA
Title Hikayat Iskandar Zulkarnain: diselenggarakan oleh Hj. Khalid Muhammad Hussain Author Haji Khalid Muhammad Hussain Publisher Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka,Kementerian Pelajaran Malaysia, 1986 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Dec 14, 2006 Length 359 pages Subjects Legends
Title Hikayat Iskandar Zulkarnain: analisis resepsi Volume 3874 of Seri BP Seri ILDEP Author Siti Chamamah Soeratno Publisher Balai Pustaka, 1991 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized May 17, 2008 ISBN 9794073598, 9789794073599 Length 269 pages
Title Hikayat Iskandar Zulkarnain & Syair Raja Siak: dari naskah W113 & W273 Author Perpustakaan Nasional (Indonesia) Publisher Perpustakaan Nasional RI, 2002 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized May 17, 2008 ISBN 9799316707, 9789799316707 Length 253 pages
Page 300
Het: Bersabda radja Iskandar : Apa dajalatmoe (?) is dan later ... (d.i. ons hs. F): „ Most interesting of all to me was a version of the Hikayat Iskandar Dzulkarnain containing an account of Alexander's meeting with the Gymnosophists 1 ) , 300.
Title De Maleische Alexanderroman
Author Pieter Johannes van Leeuwen
Editor Pieter Johannes van Leeuwen
Publisher B. Ten Brink, 1937
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Jul 25, 2006
Length 344 pages
Subjects Malay language
Malay literature
Page ii
Title A Malay-English dictionary (Romanised). Volume 1 of A Malay-English dictionary, Richard James Wilkinson Volume 1 of A Malay-English dictionary, romanised, Richard James Wilkinson Author Richard James Wilkinson Publisher Macmillan, 1959 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized May 19, 2008 Length 1291 pages Subjects Malay language
Is All that exists about Alex the Great at best legend?
editThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To establish historical truth requires 2 contemporary reliable witnesses for every assertion made. With regard to the alleged Alex the Great, for example, we have Arrian who lived centuries later with our manuscripts of him dated no earlier that 12th Century AD! Now if we have at best late medieval manuscripts which claim to go back to some classical writer who is supposed to have lived centuries after the supposed Alexander, and that writer claims he had primary sources, how do we know that he had such sources? How could that classical writer even know that he had primary sources? Did such writer know how to date manuscripts so even he had a reliable basis for claiming primary source? Do we have contemporary witnesses who record that somebody contemporary to Alex wrote his history? What is the date of the manuscripts which claim that?
- So I ask first of all if we even have proof that such a person lived; and second, aside from the existence of such a person, do we have proof that the assertions made about him and his life are true? Why should we put confidence in manuscripts that come over 1000 years after 333 BC? (PeacePeace (talk) 20:49, 6 April 2018 (UTC))
- @PeacePeace: First, before reading this, see my previous response at Talk:Alexander the Great#How do we know that Alex lived? was historical?. Second, your statement that "To establish historical truth requires 2 contemporary reliable witnesses for every assertion made" is completely unfounded, illogical, and unrealistic. There are very few, if any, events in all of ancient history that would meet such an arbitrary standard. Furthermore, unless you have a citation to a reputable scholar who makes this claim, this is just your own arbitrary assertion. If we were to use that rubric, we would have pretty much have to reject that any humans at all existed until around 1,000 years ago.
- Arrian is not our only source on Alexander; we have numerous sources relating to him, all of which rely on older sources that have now been lost. By the way, you do realize that we have almost no autograph manuscripts from antiquity, right? Papyrus is extremely fragile and can only last for about a century on average, which means that, in general, a text has to be copied at least once every century in order to survive. Virtually all of our surviving manuscripts from antiquity are therefore copies of copies of copies. In most cases, that does not in any sense mean our manuscripts are untrustworthy. Most of the time with historical texts, scribes would have little motivation to alter the manuscripts, and the differences we find between extant texts are usually only minor copyist errors (essential the scribal equivalent of typos) or sometimes simply brief interpolations. There is a whole branch of scholarship dealing with textual criticism that determines which manuscripts are closer to the originals and which ones are less authoritative.
- That has very little to do with our current dispute, however, since what you seem to be arguing is that all the documents relating to Alexander the Great are completely forged. I can guarantee you there is not a single reputable scholar who has ever tried to argue that, and it is a notion that is wildly implausible because it would require basically all of our documents from all of antiquity written during or after the Hellenistic period to have been forged, which is flat-out unbelievable, especially considering that these documents come from very different parts of the world and are preserved in manuscripts of varying date. It would have taken a massive, unimaginably powerful global conspiracy to forge that many manuscripts. Furthermore, it ignores the existence of all the archaeological evidence that overwhelmingly supports the historical existence of the Hellenistic period and Alexander the Great. What you seem to be advocating here is not a just massively radical complete revision of human history, but also an incredible conspiracy theory that utterly defies all the laws of parsimony.
- In any case, your arguments here are original research. I do not know of a single reputable historian who has ever questioned Alexander the Great's historical existence, except perhaps facetiously. Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the views of mainstream scholars and historians and, since mainstream scholars say Alexander the Great existed, that is the perspective we must write from, regardless of what you (or indeed anyone else here) might personally believe. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:38, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Proposed merger with 'Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great'
edit- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- To not merge, on the grounds that legend is an independently notable subset of culture warranting separate discussion in this case. Klbrain (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
I propose merging Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great into this page. The content overlap is substantial. The only part of the former which does not overlap with the current page are itemized lists. Alternatively, only the "Ancient and Medieval literature" subsection of the Cultural depictions page can be merged into this page, and the Cultural depictions page can be moved/renamed to Alexander the Great in modern culture. Pogenplain (talk) 03:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The two essentially cover different things, and both are fairly large - a merged article might be too long. Some rearrangement might be fine. We don't do "Foo in modern culture" articles, nor should we start. Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I'm also leaning towards oppose, legend is a very specific form of cultural depiction.★Trekker (talk) 20:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
did he ascend or descend?
editWishing to see the world, Alexander was thought to have descended into the depths of the ocean in a sort of diving bell, which would let him see the world from above. To do this he harnessed two large griffins between which he was seated. He would hold meat skewers above their heads to entice them to keep flying further up.
wait does this passage even make sense? why would he see the world from above if he's descending? and why are gryphons flying? they can't swim? ―Howard • 🌽33 19:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)