Talk:American cuisine

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Some strange ethnic biases in this article

In at least a couple of places one encounters some rather old cliches regarding two of the earliest ethnic groups in the US (I'm sure there are others, but I don't have the background to identify them).

• The first pertains to the "Dutch" in the MidAtlantic region. While it might seem obvious to modern readers to associate "Dutch" with "the Netherlands" and the "New Netherland" colony with the country that gave its name to it, only about half of the settlers came from the Netherlands, and a majority of the colonists were not Holland Dutch.[1]. Of the ~50% non-Dutch element, the largest group (nearly 40%) came from states and regions now part of Germany -some from territories adjacent to the Netherlands, and a significant minority from southwest Germany (the Palatine "Dutch"). While it was common at one time to assume Pennsylvania Dutch =German and New Netherlander ="Dutch" (in the modern usage), historians now know better: the term "Dutch" was used in the 17th and 18th Century (particularly in America) to refer to all Germanic peoples (Germans, Hollanders, Scandinavians etc) and languages (German, Danish, Swedish etc), and the colony of New Netherland was far more diverse than earlier historians assumed. The New Netherland Institute claims Scandinavians, Scots, Irish, Sephardic Jews (from Portugal), Italians and Croats also had a presence in New Netherland, and all lived under Dutch rule and contributed to the culture of the colony.[2].

• There's a similar bias in play when the Irish are referenced, in both the MidAtlantic (MA) section and Southeast (SE). In the MA section, all traces of Irish settlement pre-19th Century were reduced to "some Irish from Ulster" (assume "Scots-Irish"), when in fact the Irish made up ~11% of Maryland's population and 8% of Delaware (refer to the table on p. 98 for scholarly estimates[3]). For comparison, Ulster/Scots-Irish were ~10% of Maryland's population (smaller than the Irish) while the Irish outnumbered the Welsh in virtually every state/colony and the US as a whole by 1790 (settlers from Wales were referenced as part of the "very diverse mosaic of peoples"). In the SE section it's very much the same story: the "English and Scottish" are listed as the "original settlers", yet the Irish outnumbered the "Scottish" (not Scots-Irish) in almost every Southern colony/state and in Tennessee they were about even (again, p. 98 link 2 has figures). In fact, every single region of the British Isles but Ireland is referenced in the Southern section, except for of course Ulster. Small but visible minorities of Germans, French, Scandinavians and some Dutch were also present in the colonial South.

There are other issues here but this is already very long and so I'll await some responses. Overall the prose in this section is not very encyclopedic and seems like it was written by a small child for a school assignment. Jonathan f1 (talk) 23:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm more of a monitor than an editor on this article, but that said, if you believe you have reliable, secondary sources with which to make changes to the article, please feel free. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 20:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Jonathan f1, I just realized you are blocked from article editing. Due to other priorities, it would take me too long to get up to speed on this topic area. But if you can give me some specific "change x to y" statements, with citations I could use, I would certainly do what I can. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 21:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Recent content reduction in lead

I have reverted recent content reduction in the lead as there doesn't seem to be sufficient rationale for its removal. That can be discussed here. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:22, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Max2284, you are saying the summary content you removed belongs in the History section. Can you explain why this is necessary? Just saying that you think it has to be removed or placed somewhere else is insufficient and the multiple removals are disruptive. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, the suggestion that everything that was removed was "European" is factually inaccurate. That seems to break a neutral presentation. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:33, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Further, Mediterranean cuisine is not a "better" link than Greek-American cuisine because this article is about American cuisine. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: English 102 Section 4

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 3 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): K Wilson12 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Cmood4 (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

What is the exact issue in the lead?

Multiple editors have been going after the first paragraph in the lead for being "political" or being not "correct" where it was at. What exactly is the issue here? Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The lead should talk about American cuisine and not other cuisines.Max22812 (talk) 08:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the issue here. It is indeed talking about American cuisine. I cannot make sense of your changes. I need a more specific explanation. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

We should make it a separate paragraph.Max22812 (talk) 08:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the need for a change. This is longstanding content and there's no reason for a move. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

We should remove Jewish and Greek because is does not influence the cuisine enough and the articles are poorly sourced. The article doesn’t have more then three sources as you can see.Max22812 (talk) 08:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

That reads like an opinion. They are immigrant cuisines that have influenced American cuisine. If their articles need better sourcing, add better sourcing. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I will separate the sentence with a paragraph of sources.Max22812 (talk) 08:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean to do here. The content as-is is fine and you haven't made a case much beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Your change trashed the appearance of the article. Please revert back. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Splitting it would be easier to read.Max22812 (talk) 08:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No it does not. It looks like trash now. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

"Influences" dropped in the middle of other content is ridiculous. Please revert this nonsense. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Influences are historical also it talks about natives.Max22812 (talk) 08:45, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Different contexts. Revert these nonsense changes. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

If we keep it as it is there won’t be anymore conflicts I can guarantee you.Max22812 (talk) 08:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The change makes no sense whatsoever. I have reported this as an incident to admins. I don't see your changes as serious. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:48, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

They are because I’ve added sources.Max22812 (talk) 08:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Contextually, it makes no sense how you dropped that in there. It has trashed the article. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:50, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Like how I said the main articles are poorly sourced if you click on it.Max22812 (talk) 08:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Irrelevant. I'm done here. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 08:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Stefan. I'm not seeing what's wrong with listing a summarized version of food influences in the lead. While I agree the lead is lackluster, I've done some work previously on trying to improve the lead, making it shorter is not the answer. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. There not being an issue with listing of food influences in the lead is half of the problem with the recent edits. The other half was taking that influences content and plopping it down in the middle of other stuff, messing up flow and context, seemingly to give an appearance they were above board, but really just to remove something they didn't like from the lead. After all, when they were the IP editor, they said it was "political". /smh. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 02:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I’ve added Arab American because Middle Eastern cuisine is popular in the United States.94.79.67.92 (talk) 15:45, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately I had to remove it because that is a list of cuisine articles. Feel free to create an Arab-American cuisine article for potential inclusion. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)