Talk:Astaroth

Comments

I'm not sure I agree with removing all the modern homages (?). Plenty of other pages have similar ones. Perhaps they would be better called something other than "See Also," though. —Archlords

Agreed...go ahead and add them back of you want to, but it should go under another section...perhaps "Modern Cultural References" or even just "Video Game References".

astaroth also appears as a playable character in the Soul Calibur video game series.

One of the items in the list seems a bit dubious..."Astaroth is the name of the concious internet". What the hell?

Modern cultural references needs an overhaul::

Since there are apparently so many and the section seems very cluttered how about we divide it into multiple categories, Astaroth in film, Astaroth in music, etc. I'll try and sort as best as I can.--TylerXKJ 02:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

In the video game Omikron The Nomad Soul Astaroth is the highest demon. Astaroth controls a super computer called IX, which in turn controlls Omikron's (a different dimension to which the soul of the player of the game is transferred) population. In the beginning of the game it is explained that your soul is transferred to Omikron to liberate it from the demons. If you fail your soul will be lost, if you succeed Omikron will be free as well as your soul.

Systems Malfunction

I'm removing the odd "Systems Malfunction" quote in the "Other" because it seems to be from a home brew RPG thats run on a college campus and not from any form of pop-culture what so ever. If it pops up again, please be kind enough to remove it. PsyckoSama 03:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem

Apart from no citations, the hardcore repetition of Astaroth's name over and over again is too redundant. Just about every sentence in the cultural references section starts with his name. All of these need to be deleted. (Ghostexorcist 03:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Wings

"In art, in the Dictionnaire Infernal, Astaroth is depicted as a nude man with dragon-like wings, hands and feet, a second pair of feathered wings after the main..."

I belive the "dragon-like" wings are placed on the wolf/dog/dragon, and not on Astaroth himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.240.29.90 (talk) 11:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The dragon-like wings do belong to the 'wolf', but there are also faint wings that belong to Astaroth in the background.

Use your eyes.

Demons in Christianity

I'm OK with or without the category, but Sebastien Michaelis was a Dominican theologian and exorcist, and The Dictionnaire Infernal and Paradise Lost were written by Christians. Also the Lesser Key of Solomon / Ars Goetia does assume a Christian worldview, and was certainly written by someone who believed God wanted him to summon and oppress those demons into doing his will. While I don't agree with the theologies of Michaelis, DePlancy, Milton, or the author of the Lesser Key of Solomon, from a scholarly perspective, they're considered Christian. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:38, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that qualifies this article subject as a "Demon in Christianity", since there is no such demon in Christianity. In fact, the sources for this particular stuff apparently come from Judaism (at least according to Ashtoreth#Astarte_in_Judah, which might contradict this article), so perhaps it should be narrowed down to whatever subset of Judaism came up with it, and the information added to the article. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Christians and Christianity did derive a great deal from Judaism, but gave what they took their own twist. For example, Satan was transformed from a persecuting attourney in God's court to a cosmic threat. It is a bit of a modern evangelical POV to say that Michaelis, DePlancy, and Milton aren't a part of Christianity. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not interested in discussing OT theories about Satan here, I only want to stick to the question at hand, namely Should Astaroth be called a "demon in Christianity"? None of those authors speak for other Christians or determine Christian doctrine, any more than Salman Rushdie speaks for Muslims or determines Muslim doctrine just because he happens to be one. A closer paralel would then be taking something mentioned in Rushdies writing and categorizing it under Islamic doctrine. Now there are some names of demons that do appear in books that were indeed regarded as authoritative at times within various sects of Christianity, but I don't think this is one of them that belongs in that category. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:56, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Bringing up Salman Rushdie for Islam is like bringing up Richard Dawkins for Christianity. Era is also another issue. More apt comparisons would be Averroes, Avicenna, and Ferdowsi. A lot of Muslims don't agree with them, but they did contribute to Islam. And how else would you classify the works of Michaelis, DePlancy, and Milton except as Christian? It's not the core of the religion, but there is no other way to classify their work but "Christian." Ian.thomson (talk) 02:16, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Huh? What's wrong with just classifying it as "Occult"? Considering that it all has little to do with any of the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ, it should not be wrongly associated with those trying to follow Jesus' teachings, since it's all a bunch of totally unrelated crap that came from somewhere else. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Very little of Christianity is attributable to Jesus and is mostly totally unrelated crap that came from somewhere else. The authors I named must be classified as Christian from an NPOV, scholarly perspective, regardless of your personal view of them or what constitutes "real" Christianity. Christians did write occult texts, but they still wrote as Christians. Should we not count C.S. Lewis as a Christian author because he also wrote fantasy? Ian.thomson (talk) 02:29, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this article or its origin, however, it very explicitly states a connection to Christianity right smack in the middle of its only section:

He also goes by the name ‘Ashtart/Astarte which was rendered in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible as Astharthe (singular) and Astharoth (plural), that last form rendered in the King James Version of the Bible as Ashtaroth.

That statement is unsourced, so either it is incorrect and should be removed, or it's correct and the category is legitimate. Til, you've been bold, and I've reverted. Now it's time for discussion. Please establish consensus before removing it again.

Jess

_talk
edits

02:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

You don't know anything about this article because you followed me into it looking for my contribs to revert, didn't you? Please look up WP:STALK. And to educate you a little about the subject, the Biblical reference is to a pre-Christian Phoenician goddess (female) who is covered at Astarte, not to this male demon who was never heard of until the 1500s, unless it was in some Midrash or kabbalah work, we're still waiting for the source on that one. Definitely not a "Demon in Christianity". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

To Mann Jess: I've added a reference that shows the word "Astaroth" is used in the Vulgate.

To Til Eulenspiegel: Wait, you'll count Midrashim or Kabbalah as Jewish, but you won't count a Dominican Exorcist or Milton as Christian? That's ridiculous. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Not ridiculous. Simply find out whether it's Midrashim or kabbalah, then we can add a specific cat for "Midrashim" or "Kabbalah". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

No, this figure is written about in what is and has been the Christian equivilants to Midrashim (Milton's poetry) and Kabbalah (the theology of a Dominican priest). If we were to count Astaroth as a "Demon in Judaism" for a mention in a Midrash, we have to include him as a "Demon in Christianity" because he's mentioned by Milton. If we were to count him as a figure in Judaism because of a mention in a Kabbalistic text, we have to count him as a figure in Christianity because he's mentioned in the work of a Dominican theologian. It's a POV double standard to hold Christianity only to what Jesus said or only to the New Testament, but label as Jewish anything that any random rabbi said, even if a significant parts of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) rejects, criticizes, or at least advises against it. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

You missed my point. What I'm saying is, we find out if this originates from Kabbalah or Midrash (which remains to be seen) then we can add a more specific category than simply "Judaism". I could also see argument for adding Milton-specific or Dominican-specific categories. But categories are tricky things, they aren't easy to tweak and absolutely shouldn't be used to imply things that aren't true, and 'Demons in Christianity" is far too broad and implies something that isn't true, namely that this is a demon according to Christianity. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Another thing I notice, Milton definitely realizes he is talking about the female Phoenician goddess, Astarte, and the quote better belongs on her article, than on this one. Milton must have been better educated on classical deities than these occultists were. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:51, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

November 2013 redux

The Pseudomonarchia Daemonum proves Astaroth is a Christian demon too. Udine2812 (talk) 14:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I think not - there is no Christian church, group or sect that has ever taught that any Astaroth exists. The existence of "Astaroth" is not a Christian teaching and never has been. The only similar name is for the Canaanite idols or totems as explained in the article. Your link has the same problems as those discussed above: it is not a source purporting to represent any doctrines actually taught by any form of Christianity. Please stop adding the inappropriate "Christian demon" category. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Change to Title Section: Astaroth DukeSS of Hell, Queen of Heaven

Astaroth is a GODDESS. Some of her many names include: Aphrodite, Anat, Artemeis, Ashteroth, Ashtoreth, Astarte, Hathor, Inanna, Ishtar, and Juno.

“And it came to pass afterwards that Eleazar the high-priest the son of Aaron died, and was buried in Gabaar of Phinehas{gr.Phinees} his son, which he gave him in mount Ephraim. In that day the children of Israel took the ark of God, and carried it about among them; and Phinehas{gr.Phinees} exercised the priest's office in the room of Eleazar his father till he died, and he was buried in his own place Gabaar: but the children of Israel departed every one to their place, and to their own city: and the children of Israel worshipped Ashtaroth{gr.Astarte}, and Ashtaroth{gr.Astaroth}, and the gods of the nations round about them; and the Lord delivered them into the hands of Eglon{gr.Eglom} king of Moab and he ruled over them eighteen years.” Joshua 24:33 Septuagint ( )

“A’ STAROTH, (the plural of Astarte) or Ashtaroth, or Ashtoreth, a GODDESS of the Sidonians. 1 Kings xi.5. Ashtaroth, in the Syrian language, signifies sheep; particularly ewes, when their dugs are turgid, and they give milk. From the fecundity of these animals, which in Syria continue to breed a long time, the Sidonians formed the notion of a deity, which they called ASTAROTH, or Astarte. Astarte, the singular number of ASTAROTH, a GODDESS of the Phoenicians. This deity is in Scripture (Jer. Xiv.18) called the QUEEN of Heaven…Solomon had many wives that were sorceresses, was prevailed upon them to introduce the worship of this GODDESS into Israel… ”

“Moreover, the universe of the ancient religion of Mesopotamia was conceived as being under the control of Baal, the Father God and ASTAROTH, the MOTHER GODDESS. Baal, the Sun-god, was a hot, active, light, immaterial and positive principle; ASTAROTH, the Moon-GODDESS, was cold, passive, heavy, material and negative.”

“The Sumerian goddess Inanna, better known by her Semitic name Ishtar, was worshipped all over the Western Lands under different local cultic names. To the Phoenicians and Philistines, she was Astarte; to the Canaanites she was Asherah. She appears in the Old Testament under these names as well as ASTORETH and Anat. These were all permutations of the name Ishtar, the fertility GODDESS and “Queen of Heaven” of the Semitic people.” “The worship of Astarte was quite common among the Hebrews and appears in the form of ASTAROTH. In Joshua 24:33 (a verse which does not appear in the King James version but is found in the Hebrew text) she is called Astarte, the “majestic lady” or Astarten kai Astaroth. ASTAROTH is a plural form of majesty and it is OBVIOUS that the word applies to Astarte.”

“Venus Anadyomene…Astaroth GODDESS of the Zidonians” (Page 33 Catalogue of the Statues and Busts in Marble and Casts in the National Gallery of Victoria

“ASTAROTH, or Astoreth, or Astarte, a celebrated Phoenician GODDESS….She was GODDESS of the woods, the celestial GODDESS, and was also called the “Queen of Heaven”

Hebrew Word 6253. Ashtoreth "Ancient Semetic goddess; Phoenician diety" "Probably for ashtrah; Ashtoreth, the Phoenician GODDESS of Love"

“Perhaps some light may be thrown upon its history by the observations of Adrichomius,* who speaks of the fane constructed by Solomon, upon the top of the Mount of Olives, for the worship of ASTAROTH, the idol of the Sidonians. The Venus of Paphos was represented by a symbol which had the peculiar form of this crypt; that is to say a eone; but the Phoenician ASTAROTH, and the Paphian GODDESS, were one and the same divinity.”

“ASTAROTH, or Ashtaroth, in antiquity, a GODDESS of the Sidonians. “ “Astarte, the Singular of ASHTAROTH, a GODDESS of the Sidonians, and called, in scripture, the Queen of Heaven.”

“GODDESS known as Ester, Esther, Ishtar and/or ASTAROTH”

“Ashtaroth, and (once) ASTAROTH a city on the E of Jordan…doubtlessly so called from being a seat of the worship of the GODDESS of the same name. “Ashtoreth, [and once ASTARTE, (aka ASTAROTH)] the principal FEMALE divinity of the Phoenicians, as Baal was the principal MALE divinity….In the earlier books of the o.t. only the plural, Ashtaroth occurs, and it is not till the time of Solomon, who introduced the worship of the Sidonian Astarte, and only in reference to that particular GODDESS, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians, that the singular is found in the O.T.”

“In later Jewish mythology, she [Astarte] became a female demon of lust; for what seems to be the use of the Hebrew plural form of ʻAštārōṯ in this sense, see Astaroth).

“The term Astaroth is derived from the name of the Semitic Goddess Astarte, a goddess who appears in Ugaritic, Phoenician, and Akkadian sources. She is a cognate of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. Because she is connected with forbidden things in the bible, namely with religions that were viewed as false and heretical by the ancient Israelites, Astarte cum Astaroth was demonized along with a host of other foreign deities. She, now a he, has remained a demon ever since – at least as far as most of Western civilization is concerned.”

“A good example is the Babylonian mother goddess, Ishtar. A beneficent deity of a very loving and generous nature, Ishtar, also seen as a moon goddess, first became Astarte, then ASTAROTH, one of the fallen angels and one of the highest demons in the hierarchy of hell.”

“She [Venus, the Goddess of Love] was generally worshipped in the territories of Israel by the name of Astarte, or ASTAROTH, or Asterah, or the Goddess of the Groves.”

"Juno, therefore, a translation of the Greek Hera, chief of the Goddesses in Greco-Roman pantheon, was the Roman equivelant of the Phoenician supreme GODDESS, ASTAROTH, known to us by the Greek name of ASTARTE, the goddess of fertility for the Semitic peoples."

“Evidently, the adaptation of the roles and statutes of divine figures extends over time and space, and across the entire spectrum of deities, whose fate at the hands of popular belief and official doctrine cannot be predicted. Astarte is one case in point of a goddess who has managed to keep a hold on the minds of man from roughly the fifteenth century BC right through to the Middle Ages and beyond: (s)he will be highly instrumental in the destruction of Alexander VI in The Devil’s Charter. The name is found in Ugaritic (‘ttrt for Athtart[u]), Phoenician (‘štrt for Ashtart), Hebrew (Aštōret), Egyptian (‘strt, ‘strt, or istrt) and Greek (Astartē), and consequently related to, and the counterpart of, the Akkadian Aš-tar-[tum?] for Ishtar, the goddess of love and war. She appears to be the Evening Star, Venus, deified. In Ugarit, as well as in Egypt, she is seen as an armed consort of Baal, although she does not seem to have had a relationship with him. In Egypt, where Seth and Baal are conflated, Seth takes the daughters of Re, namely Anat and Astarte, as his wives. Here, Astarte is a war-goddess. She was also an important female deity in Phoenicia. The goddess further extends her mighty arms into various other Mediterranean cultures: “she became assimilated with the Egyptian deities Isis and Hathor, and in the Greco-Roman world with Aphrodite, Artemis, and Juno, all aspects of the Great Mother.” The Aramaic goddess Atargatis also takes on traits of Ashtart, who retains a life of her own, too. As she is a rival deity to Yahweh, it does not come as a surprise that the Hebrews did not flatter her greatly: Hebrew scholars now feel that the GODDESS Ashtoreth mentioned so often in the bible is a deliberat3e conflation of the Greek name Astarte and the Hebrew word boshet, “shame,” indicating the Hebrew contempt for HER cult. Ashtaroth, the plural form of the goddess’s name in Hebrew became a general term denoting GODDESSES and paganism.” “It is in this latter form that the name eventually reappears as the one of one of the principal, now male, demons frequently found in occult literature of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance."

SnowWhite21 (talk) 23:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC) SnowWhite21 SnowWhite21 (talk) 23:45, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by SnowWhite21 (talk • contribs) 23:33, 23 December 2017 (UTC) 

References

Proposed Change to Page, COMBINING ALL INFORMATION and History ABOUT ASTAROTH aka ASTARTE.

ASTAROTH was a GODDESS until the NEW IDEA of HER being a Male Demon came about in 1458 it would be fitting to have ONE ARTICLE that covered both the GODDESS AND the NEW proposed idea of Astaroth being a Male Demon.

Quote from Current Wikipedia Page: The name "Astaroth" as a male demon is first known from The Book of Abramelin, purportedly written in Hebrew c. 1458, and recurred in most occult grimoires of the following centuries. Astaroth also features as an archdemon associated with the qliphoth (adverse forces) according to later Kabbalistic texts.

SnowWhite21 (talk) 01:19, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Astarte and Astaroth indeed do have a relationship. But that does not mean they don't have distinctive natures. This is very much a case of mythological assimilation. Similar to Baal and Bael (demon), who have separate wikipedia pages for a reason. They are considered different beings, despite the fact that the demon is very much inspired by the god. Thus even though one is inspired by the other, they should be explored separately as separate ideas. Although their pages can and should reference each other as related ideas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.228.134.47 (talk) 13:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

It is also a city?

In the Book of Joshua it is a city. 89.134.17.190 (talk) 19:20, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Cities in the Book of Joshua does not mention a city named "Astaroth" Mr Fink (talk) 21:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)