Talk:Baal

Baal as an Israelite and Judahite God

There is a need for a section that specifically refers to Baal worship among Israelites and Judahites, whether in opposition to, or alongside the cult of YHWY. What is the best way of introducing this material. The article should not have Baal under the heading of Judaism. Judaism is OR, and does not refer to anything before the Babylonian exile.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 07:25, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

There is a section on the worship of the Canaanite Ba'al. It's under the Canaanite area. Feel free to add RS about his worship among the Israelites under Jezebel &c. There's no need for a separate section about his worship among the Israelites until it's well-referenced and long enough that it's helpful to the article's structure. Otherwise, it can be a paragraph or two within the existing section.

#Ba'al as a divine title in Israel and Judah, besides being unpleasant to look at, needlessly unTERSE, and out of line with the other section heads... is obviously confusing enough to you that you didn't realize it's not talking about the Canaanite Ba'al at all: it deals with Ba'al as a title of the Israelite god Yahweh, always has, and has just been reworded into a terser form to make that clear.

It's fine if you think the way forward is to FORK the content (the Yahweh bit is already dealt with at Names of God in Judaism, e.g.) or turn this page into a DAB, but as it's stood for years it's not about a single entity—given that it obviously changed over time and with context—but about the term. Early on, it may have been limited to Ba'al Haddu; by the 1st millennium, he was a separate god from Ba'al; similarly, the Israelites' use of the name for Yahweh is a separate use of the term, which is within the current SCOPE of this article but needs a separate section. — LlywelynII 23:53, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

There appears to have been no consensus for the change from the title Ba'al as a divine title in Israel and Judah. That title was used for a long time. It is you who is confused, the section has not been about Baal as a title for YHWH, that is simply your OR. The section has been about Israelite and Judahite worship of Baal. No one is claiming that this article is solely about a single entity. It has always been about the use of the term Baal in all its meanings. You seem to want to change the scope of the article to match opinions which are not backed up by the RSJohnmcintyre1959 (talk) 17:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

It is not about that at all and you are completely misreading both the section and the source, which are talking about the name Ba'al being applied to the Lord of Israel Yahweh, not the Canaanite god. You're about to hit WP:3RR so kindly restrict yourself to the talk page before building some consensus for your scope and definitional change. — LlywelynII 00:24, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

As for Baal being applied to the LoI, we should remove this RS. Ayles (1904), p. 103. Nowhere in the text do the names Jerubaʿal, Eshbaʿal or Beeliada occur, so I suggest that it should be removed.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 20:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Scope of the article

It has been suggested (on my talk page, rather than here, I do not know why) that

Glad you finally went to the talk page there. Kindly keep it there since you're about to bang up against WP:3RR and I'm sure you're well-meaning: it just seems like you just haven't read through the DDD article and are misunderstanding the article's WP:SCOPE. Hadad deals with Hadad; Baal has always been about the general term, in reference to Hadad, to Yahweh, and to other local gods. If you'd like to change that scope, I understand the idea but think it's a mistake since it would involve WP:MERGING it with the Hadad article and I don't think the scholarship is really settled on that point. Anyway, let's talk about it over there and, if you don't like my take on it, present your thoughts and let's do a WP:RFC or something to get some more opinions. Also see this from a recent reversion. Undid revision 678739348 by Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) This article is not about a single god Ba'al. Read its history and reread the article

My italics.

This reveals a fundamental misunderstanding about the scope pf this article. I am not claiming that this article should only be about the multilple references to a single God known as Baal, or to multiple local Baals. However lets look at the history, as invited.

Here is the present lede.

Baal (/ˈbeɪəl/),[1][n 1] properly Baʿal (Ugaritic: 𐎁𐎓𐎍;[5] Phoenician: 𐤋𐤏𐤁; Biblical Hebrew: בעל, pronounced [ˈbaʕal]),[6] was a title and honorific meaning "lord" in the Northwest Semitic languages spoken in the Levant during antiquity. From its use among people, it came to be applied to gods. Scholars previously associated the theonym with solar cults and with a variety of unrelated patron deities, but inscriptions have shown that the name Baʿal was particularly associated with the storm and fertility god Hadad and his local manifestations.[7] The Hebrew Scriptures, compiled and curated over a span of centuries, include early use of the term in reference to their God Yahweh, generic use in reference to various Levantine deities, and finally pointed application towards Hadad, who was decried as a false god. This use was taken over into Christianity and Islam, sometimes under the opprobrious form Beelzebub.

Here it is with my change.

''Baal''' ({{IPAc-en|ˈ|b|eɪ|ə|l}}),<ref name=oed>''[[Oxford English Dictionary]]'' (1885), "[http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/14174 Baal, ''n.'']"</ref>{{refn|group=n|The [[American English|American pronunciation]] is usually the same<ref>''Oxford Dictionaries'' (2015), "[http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/Baal Baal]"</ref><ref name=mwo/> but some speakers prefer variants closer to the original sound, such as {{IPAc-en|b|ɑː|ˈ|ɑː|l}} or {{IPAc-en|ˈ|b|ɑː|l}}.<ref name=mwo>''Merriam-Webster Online'' (2015), "[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baal baal]".</ref><ref>''Webb's Easy Bible Names Pronunciation Guide'' (2012), "[https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=IrrtAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT36 Baal]".</ref>}} properly '''Baʿal''' ({{lang-uga|{{linktext|𐎁𐎓𐎍}}}};{{sfnp|De Moor & al.|1987|p=[https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=fu_Y5qnoCpAC&pg=PA1 1]}} {{lang-phn|{{linktext|𐤋𐤏𐤁}}}};<!--right-to-left--> {{lang-hbo|{{linktext|בעל}}}}, {{IPA-he|ˈbaʕal|pron}}),{{sfnp|Strong|1890|loc=[http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1166 H1166]}} was a god worshiped in many ancient Middle Eastern communities, especially among the [[Canaanites]], who considered him a fertility deity and one of the most important of the gods.

Followed by the above.

Now this version of the lede is from 21 May 2012 !!!!!

Baʿal (Biblical Hebrew בעל, pronounced [ˈbaʕal], usually spelled Baal in English) is a Northwest Semitic title and honorific meaning "master" or "lord"[1] that is used for various gods who were patrons of cities in the Levant and Asia Minor, cognate to Akkadian Bēlu. A Baalist or Baalite means a worshipper of Baal.

"Baʿal" can refer to any god and even to human officials; in some texts it is used as a substitute for Hadad, a god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven. Since only priests were allowed to utter his divine name, Hadad, Ba‛al was commonly used. Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of "Baʿal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called baʿal and regarded in the Hebrew Bible in that context as a "false god".

Note that it also contains the sub section Baʿal as a divine title in Israel and Judah

This article has for a long time been about Baal as a God or Gods. The use of the article to discuss the meaning of the word lord, master, etc is not the primary purpose of the article.

I am not changing the article, I am restoring it to what has always been its primary purpose.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 17:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Judaica vol EJ vol III pg 12 article Baal worship Nevertheless, despite the biblical tendency to avoid the use of the word as a proper name, it is now quite clear that by pre-Israelite times the term had become the usual name of the weather-god of Syria-Palestine. is an RS for the use of the term in reference to God/Gods. Also https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=n7i7k06rq7IC&pg=PA55&dq=baal&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAThQahUKEwi79rWowNbHAhX0K9sKHfgpDR4#v=onepage&q=baal&f=false The Dictionary of Demons Baal the Cannanite name for God or Lord. Also Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary By J. D. Douglas, Merrill C. Tenney the word Baal in the OT (sic) most often refers to a Semitic deity. in early years used for the God of Israel - Yahweh.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 19:03, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I really don't know what to say to you if you think that "Baal... is a Northwest Semitic title and honorific meaning "master" or "lord"" [the scope which has actually been upheld by myself and other editors] being turned into "Baal was a god" isn't a scope change. It's so obviously incorrect that there's really nothing more to say except for you're up against your WP:3RR and should refrain from editing this page until you've gathered support for your changes on the talk page. This article has started the way it has and focused the way it has since the very first copy-and-paste from the Britannica in 2002. I'm not even saying that's the best way to handle it: it's just how it's always been. As I told you on your talk page [because it was an issue for you rather than the page itself], I suggest launching a RFC and getting some other voices involved so you don't feel you're being stymied by a single other editor and can make some peace with the magnitude of your error and/or build a consensus to change the article to reflect the SCOPE you think it should have instead of the one it always has. — LlywelynII 00:19, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I really don't know what to say to you if you think that a single sentence from a cut and paste from Britannica justifies your claim that this article is only about Baal as a term for lord or master. The original article refers to the God Baal, and to the various Baals known by their local names. The article overwhelming supports this longstanding text which I wish to restore so that we can get back to the original purpose of the article.

Baʿal (Biblical Hebrew בעל, pronounced [ˈbaʕal], usually spelled Baal in English) is a Northwest Semitic title and honorific meaning "master" or "lord"[1] that is used for various gods who were patrons of cities in the Levant and Asia Minor, cognate to Akkadian Bēlu. A Baalist or Baalite means a worshipper of Baal. "Baʿal" can refer to any god and even to human officials; in some texts it is used as a substitute for Hadad, a god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven. Since only priests were allowed to utter his divine name, Hadad, Ba‛al was commonly used. Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of "Baʿal" refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called baʿal and regarded in the Hebrew Bible in that context as a "false god".

How you can claim that it is a scope change to say that Baal is a God is beyond me. The article has always said that Baal is both a title meaning lord etc, and a God/Gods. Will you accept that something close to this text above be restored to the lede, or shall we take it to dispute?Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 21:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Whilst the article may have started with a cut and paste from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the current EB article on Baal makes it very clear as to the current scope and meaning of the word. Baal, god worshiped in many ancient Middle Eastern communities, especially among the Canaanites, who apparently considered him a fertility deity and one of the most important gods in the pantheon. As a Semitic common noun baal (Hebrew baʿal) meant “owner” or “lord,” although it could be used more generally; for example, a baal of wings was a winged creature, and, in the plural, baalim of arrows indicated archers My bold. If we want to restrict ourselves then we could change the title to more meaningfully reflect the limited relevance of the article to what is now understood to be the meaning of the word Baal.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 20:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

"Do not caste your pearls amongst swine" This means dont teach them about how to make your temple incense or utter your gods name amongst those who are foreign. For instance Baal zibbul is probably Herucles of the peleset and theyre probably mocking his feats by saying hes the lord or curing plagues of maggots here:

5. Clean the Augean stables in a single day

   the Augean stables were the home of 3,000 cattle with poisoned faeces which Augeas had been given by his father Helios. Heracles was given the near impossible task of cleaning the stables of the diseased faeces. He accomplished it by digging ditches on both sides of the stables, moving them into the ditches, and then diverting the rivers Alpheios and Peneios to wash the ditches clean.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:A0C6:1200:A0CA:F01A:DFA8:7963 (talk) 12:36, 19 October 2022 (UTC) 

Request for RS

I cannot find an RS that backs up this claim; From its use among people, it came to be applied to gods. If no one can find one I propose to remove it. Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 21:36, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

It's good that you come here and talk about it but you're making it very hard to ASSUME your good faith with such tendentious requests. The PRIMARY and continuing meaning of the word is "owner", "lord", and "husband", as backed up by numerous cites in the text; the Semitic languages don't use the word for leaseholders and husbands because it was originally applied to gods; it went the other way around and WP:BLUE covers this point entirely. WP:LEADCITE suggests we not use citations in the lead for things that are well established in the text. (Here, in the #Word section.)

So... it'd be better if you just withdrew the tendentious request. That said, WP:LEADCITE does permit citations in the lead for challenged points and if you really were doubting that it's correct, we can add the cite. I really feel that it's needless and bad form, but it's not something we'll have to remove until this article goes up for WP:GA status and that seems like it's aways off. — LlywelynII 01:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The argument that it can be derived from the text in the article just makes me more certain that the cite is required. I see that you have added EB 1878. The latest online version of EB does not contain that text, so I suggest that we need another RS, as that one is so out of date.Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 17:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Something wrong with the link to Bel

This page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_(mythology)

does not show up as a Wikipedia link in the "See Also" section for "Bel and Temple of Bel."

The words "Temple of Bel" in that section do link properly, but the first word "Bel" is obviously supposed to show up and link to the Wikipedia entry "Bel (mythology)." But it doesn't and I can't figure out why not.

Can somebody fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.225.181.137 (talk) 05:28, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Baalenciaga ad

In it’s latest drop advertisement balenciaga on purpose spelled baalenciaga on a piece of merch which in latin translates into baal is king. 41.200.129.199 (talk) 00:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

incorrect. That is gibberish - Baal is king would be Baal est rex. Don't trust google translate on its face 136.53.80.94 (talk) 23:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)