Talk:Barquq Castle

Pinging

I have started a new article on this important historical site. I used the Arabic article as a base - there is a lot of work still to do.

@Zero0000 and Poliocretes: You may remember the discussion about this at User talk:Onceinawhile/Archive 5#Gate identified. It was destroyed by Israeli bombing about six months after our discussion. Strangely the Western media's reaction has been almost silent, particularly when compared to other such intentional destructions like the Buddhas of Bamiyan or Nimrud.

@Huldra: given your expertise in buildings of this period, any support would be appreciated.

@Richard Nevell: thanks again for your work at Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip. Since I see from your user page that you specialise in castle studies and the archaeology of destruction, I thought you might be particularly interested in and expert in this topic. I believe it is technically a caravanserai not a castle, so I am not yet sure why it has this name.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC) Coordinates: 31°30′58″N 35°09′51″E

User:Onceinawhile thanks a lot for starting this article! A couple of comments:

• The Sharon reference vol 2,(B-C) only writes about Barquq on p. 17, and that is about about an inscription in Bani Na'im. (But mention Yunus an-Nuruzi on p. 228: already in the article)
• The Sharon vol 4, (G(aza)) doesn't have anything about Barquq; this place is probably dealt with in the "K"-book, which hasn't been published yet.
• Searching for "Dawadar" (or Dawatdar) isn't very helpful, as that was a title ("head of chancery"), so there are several different "Dawadars"

I'll keep looking for sources, cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:52, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm certainly interested in the topic. As it's not a castle as such, the usual sources I use may not cover it, but I'll keep looking. (In any case it's unlikely I'll be much help over the coming week or so.) Richard Nevell (talk) 00:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

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Barquq Castle

• ... that the front façade, gateway, mosque and minaret of Barquq Castle in the Gaza Strip were still standing until 2024?

• Source: Abu Khalaf 1983, p. 182: "Nowadays the Khan is almost demolished, but the front part, which consists of the façade including the gateway and the Mosque with its minaret still stands."

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Have I Got News for You (American game show)

Created by Onceinawhile (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 79 past nominations.

Onceinawhile (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC).

• @Onceinawhile: Please note that per a recent rule change, a QPQ must be provided at the time of the nomination or at most immediately after. The nomination may be failed without further warning if a QPQ is not provided as soon as possible. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I have done the QPQ now. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Full review needed now the QPQ has been submitted. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:20, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

article is long enough, new enough and within policy. Hook is short enough and interesting. QPQ is complete. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• @Onceinawhile:@Gonzo fan2007: This hook implies that all of these things (the front façade, gateway, mosque and minaret) are no longer standing as of 2024. However, it doesn't necessarily say that in the article, just that the site was vaguely "damaged". If we know to what extent, and if we know that all those things are indeed no longer standing, then this hook is fine, that just needs to be mentioned sourced in the article. If not the hook may need to be tweaked somewhat to reflect the fact we don't know what parts are standing or not. Kimikel (talk) 14:19, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Kimikel: thank you for raising this. The hook was written before the article was complete, so it was intentionally vague as to what happened during the war as we had not quite figured it out. Following further research, the article now says "The castle was damaged during the Israel–Hamas war." UNESCO have verified damage to the site, and the images in this article show what is standing and what is damaged. I suggest we amend the hook to:

• ALT1: ... that the 637-year-old Barquq Castle (pictured), the eponymous historical monument of Khan Yunis, was damaged during the Israel–Hamas war?

Onceinawhile (talk) 18:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: Okay, so 637 appears to come from 2024-1387, which a) would need a citation for 1387 (and given that this could conceivably be late 1387 and early 2024, I'm not even sure that's adequate); b) "the ... Yunis" is cruising for a pruning per WP:DYKTRIM, and c) given Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 203#Negative Israel hooks you should very seriously consider merging this with Old City of Gaza, i.e. some variant of ALT2: ... that the Old City of Gaza, the Old City of Nablus, and the 600-year-old Barquq Castle have all been damaged by the Israel-Hamas War?--Launchballer 11:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Launchballer. The 1387 is sourced twice in the article, most precisely in the inscription section. The Arabic inscription at the top of the gateway dates it 789 AH (ar:789 هـ) which is technically 1387-88. Perhaps better to say “over 600-year-old” or similar.

The proposed merger doesn’t work because Nablus has nothing to do with Hamas. I have already merged two into one, I don’t think three into one is workable - particularly as two are cities with many historical monuments and the other is just a single monument (if the only truly historical monument in Khan Yunis) - but happy to hear further proposals.

Onceinawhile (talk) 21:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: How about "14th-century"?--Launchballer 00:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Launchballer: that works perfectly. So it would be:

• ALT3: ... that the 14th century Barquq Castle (pictured), the eponymous historical monument of Khan Yunis, was damaged during the Israel–Hamas war?

Onceinawhile (talk) 08:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Fine by me, and as I've introduced no new information let's roll.--Launchballer 13:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not entirely clear to me what "the eponymous historical monument" means Onceinawhile? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Videos

@Amigao: I see you removed the videos in this edit. Seems a loss for our readers, as those two videos add real clarity to the current situation, in a way that written sources cannot. If the format not consistent with WP:EL, how would you recommend we best link readers to these videos? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:37, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Template:External media might be the optimal way to go here. However, I would suggest avoiding deprecated sources such as WP:ALMAYADEEN. See WP:RSPSOURCES for further guidance. - Amigao (talk) 17:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

External videos
Video showing some of the damage to Barquq Castle in 2024
"Palestinian mourns history as Israel destroys archaeological sites in Gaza"

@Amigao: How about the template on the right? The video linked to is published by Xinhua, which is listed amongst the perennial sources with the description "There is consensus that Xinhua is generally reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation". Misinformation in the Israel–Hamas war doesn't indicate China's involvement in mis- or disinformation. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I just realised that it was the second video initially included in the external links section. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Looks fine, though I would also recommend adding the name of the source (Xinhua) as part of the video description for full transparency. - Amigao (talk) 22:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Destruction

Article says castle was destroyed by the Israeli Air Force (no ref) and the "These were mostly destroyed by Israeli bombing in 2024" (irrelevant ref, from 2016). But even prior to the war, the castle only consisted of the facade, gate, mosque dome shell and minaret. Yet both videos and the relevant ref on Arab wiki page all show both the gate and the facade practically undamaged, the inscriptions are still there, plus the video shows the dome behind the speaker's shoulder. The minaret is gone, but that's about it. So at the same time as lamenting the destruction of the castle, the videos are showing the near exact opposite. Furthermore, lots of dramatic rubble shots, but that's in front of the facade, and somehow piled up right up to and under the still extant gate, so clearly not of the gate.

Also, the chances of aerial bombing taking out the minaret, throwing up lots of rubble, and leaving the gate, facade and mosque intact (plus no bomb crater) are practically nil. This is ground fighting, which Khan Younis most certainly was a major site of. In short, the refs are insufficient for the claims made. Poliocretes (talk) 19:30, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

That is a translation from the Arabic article, which needs to be improved to describe the extent of destruction more precisely. There are many mediocre sources which state what happened; I am still looking to confirm the best sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I've added some further information on this section, with a source describing at as destroyed in the aerial bombing. AnarchistHistory (talk) 23:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Second source only lists it as damaged. Says nothing about destruction or bombing and clearly states information is lacking. First one, unsigned from a Chinese press agency, says destroyed yet features multiple images that show the exact opposite. Lots of rubble, on the outside, but only the minaret is clearly damaged. Could you also point out the "aerial bombardment" bit? The only reference to an airstrike relates to the Al-Omari mosque. Castle damage is attributed solely to "Israeli army". Poliocretes (talk) 11:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Poliocretes. There are articles saying "destroyed", but comparing before and after pictures shows what I would approximate as the minaret "destroyed" and the rest of the historical partial remains being "further damaged". It would be great to find a source which explains it in full.

The other thing I am looking to find is something explaining what happened in 1917 - the picture from 1881 shows the frontage fully in tact at that point. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I have revised the content to be in line with the cited sources. 'Destroyed' is a common was of describing the damage to the site; while I don't think there is much to be gained from debating the semantics of when a building is or isn't destroyed (does it have to be total? Is it enough for the building no longer to be able to fulfil its previous purpose?) describing it as damaged is consistent with what the sources say.

I didn't see any mention of what caused the damage – as in whether it was bombing (direct or indirect). The closest I could find was the source added by User:AnarchistHistory which says Standing beside the Al-Omari Grand Mosque in the city, which was also largely destroyed by Israeli airstrikes in December last year. This followed a section on Barquq and could be read as meaning that both the Al-Omari Grand Mosque and Barquq Castle were hit with airstrikes, but that's not necessarily what was meant and given the uncertainty inherent in this kind of situation I think it is appropriate to omit the method of damage.

On the status of the site further back in time, Mustafa Al Naddaf says that until 1956 AD, most of the castle’s internal buildings were present, but they gradually disappeared. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Measurements

@Richard Nevell: please could you add a citation for the first paragraph in the Area section (particularly sixteen dunums, the shape of the castle was square, each of its sides is 85.5 meters)? I have looked but cannot see where the information came from. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The report from the Ministry of Culture doesn't include measurements. The Heritage for Peace report gives the measurements as 80m, but that could be rounded, and notes that it is square. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I've found the information in Abu Khalaf, Marwan F. (1983). "Khan Yunus and the Khans of Palestine". Levant. 15 (1): 178–186. doi:10.1179/lev.1983.15.1.178.. I'll update the reference. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

IAA archives

To editor Onceinawhile: To editor Richard Nevell: There is a lot of stuff at [1] including photos from around the 1930s. For example, here is a panorama from the top of the minaret (but it needs to be checked whether it is looking inside or outside the compound). Zero^talk 00:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Zero. What a valuable find. I have uploaded the photos at Commons:Category:Barquq Castle, as they are out of copyright. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)