Talk:Carignan

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was this page moved to Carignan, disambiguation page moved to Carignan (disambiguation). Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Page was originally at Carignan until a user moved it saying that "American spelling" should be used. However Carignan is by far the most common term used with French plantings significantly dwarfing California planting. Historically French Carignan is also more prominent. Chilean, South Africa and even some American wineries (like in Washington State) also use Carignan. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support I agree this was a misguided move. This isn't a geographical name issue, where the anglicized version should (almost) always be used. We should use the most common usage, per WP:COMMONNAME and set up redirects for the various spellings used by Italian, Spanish and Californian growers. The decisive point to grasp here is that readers could easily come across any of these spellings in English-language textbooks and articles (see Oz Clarke, Janis Robinson, et al). We should name our articles according to the most commonly-used English language spelling, which in this case is the French form. --mikaul^talk 09:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. My English language wine encyclopedia source (written by an American, technically) lists it as Carignan, and makes mention in summary of transplantation to America with its newer spelling Carignane, and for an encyclopedia this seems the correct choice. The Additional Carignan entries would be suitable on a Carignan (disambiguation) page. MURGH ^disc. 12:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. The standard tome on all things vinous, The Oxford Companion to Wine, in its latest (2006) edition uses Carignan as the principal name form for this variety, and mentions Carignane (US), Carignano (Italy) and Cariñena (Spain) as synonyms. I consider the OCW to be authorative enough that we need very good reasons to to things differently than they do. OCW also lists France as the country which has the most Carignan (in accordance with Agnes statement), which means that most people are more likely to encounter Carignan than Carignane. Also, I have never seen US wine writers (e.g. Parker) calling it Carignane when it comes from non-US sources. So Carignane is probably only used in the US for US-grown Carignan(e), and hardly used in any other instances. That would not make the name form with an extra e suitable for an article on the grape variety as such. Tomas e (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support revert to Carignan, and Support the grape at Carignan and the dab at Carignan (disambiguation). As a Brit, I've only ever really seen it called Carignan, of the local variants I've seen Cariñena far more often than any other such as Carignane - and the original reason for moving it contravenes WP:ENGVAR in any case.

On the dab front, Gene Nygaard seems to be coming up with lots of other things that are Somebody Carignan, or Carignan-Something, but none of them are just plain "Carignan". As such the compound forms are ideally suited to a Carignan (disambiguation) page but don't really belong on the original "Carignan" page. I'd also argue that the grape variety is the only one that passes the 'daily life' test - certainly in the UK, and I imagine worldwide, the ordinary Wikipedian will find the word "Carignan" in large letters on the shelves of every supermarket, and mentioned in national newwspapers. I can't see any of GN's finds having similar international WP:NOT. Hell, even in France, home to all these princes and towns gives fr:Carignan over to the grape, and See Alsos the dab to fr:Carignan (homonymie). If there's no doubt in the mind of our French colleagues as to the relative notability of the grape and the princes and towns, then I don't think there should be much doubt over here. FlagSteward (talk) 17:21, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The earlier move may or may not have been a misguided move, but I don't think this article deserves primary disambiguation over the other articles at the Carignan disambiguation page. Either leave it as it is, or move it to Carignan (grape variety) or something of the sort (maybe there is some other conventional disambiguation term). Gene Nygaard (talk) 19:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Even with the additional topics added to the disambig page, I think the grape variety is much more likely to be the intended destination when someone types "Carignan" into the Wiki search engine. It also seems to be the most often used article link destination compare...

Carignan grape - 250+ article links

Carignan, Quebec - 20 article links

House of Savoy-Carignan - 12 article links

Carignan-Salières Regiment - 13 article links

Jean Carignan - 8 article links

Jean-Guy Carignan - 15 article links

Julliette Carignan - 1 article link (to the disambig page)

It's not even close even you added all the none grape entries together. The only one that compares is the city Carignano due to its placement on the massive Template:Province of Turin but that just warrants its "See also" place as an alternative spelling. Even in "english" the city is always referred to as Carignano and never Carignan. Again I think it is pretty clear which item is the Primary Topic. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 23:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

First, I should disclose that I'm the one who made many of the disambiguation page additions, afer I remarked above about this article not deserving primary disambiguation. I've often created or made significant additions to a number of other disambiguation pages; their usefulness is sometimes overlooked. It isn't real clearcut, and could go either way, but I still think the disambiguation page should be at "Carignan". The French geographical area, and especially the historical political entity there, is mentioned in a number of articles not dealing with wine or the grapes from which it is made. I think the personal names, which hadn't been included at all on the disambiguation page before, are a big part of the reason. Part of that also involves the fact that many of the members of the House of Savoy-Carignan also have "Carignan" in the names of their Wikipedia articles, though I hadn't bothered to list them on the disambiguation page. See Category:House of Savoy, which includes Thomas Francis, Prince of Carignan, Charles Emmanuel, Prince of Carignan, Prince Eugène-Maurice of Savoy-Carignan, Prince Louis Thomas of Savoy-Carignan, etc. There are also an unknown number of the members of this "house" which probably have some connection to Carignan mentioned in the article, even if it doesn't appear in their article's name. There are also Category:Dukes of Carignan (only one article now), and Category:Princes of Savoy-Carignan which includes a number of people without Carignan in the article name. Gene Nygaard (talk) 15:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

There is also Alex Carignan, a contestant on Endurance (TV series), Robert de la Carignan, a member of ...of tanz victims band, Andrew Carignan, a baseball player for University of North Carolina in 2007 College World Series, Clifford Bernard Carignan, a Canadian politician in Peace River (electoral district). In other words, there are considerable possibilities for future expansion of the disambiguation page, whether or not any of these ever get Wikipedia articles of their own.

There are also Wikipedia articles which could have but didn't link to any of these, such as Chambly (electoral district) which could link to Carignan, Quebec. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't doubt that there are many perspective articles for Carignan but I do doubt that any of them would be, even collectively, more dominant of a Primary Topic as the grape. It has been, for over a century, one of the world's most prolific and highly planted wine grape. Flag Steward does make an excellent point when he notes that the French Wikipedia, which undoubtedly would have quite a few well developed articles on alternative Carignan, has the grape undisambiguated with a link to the disambig page. I would also point to another wine grape examples here on the English wikipedia of Merlot/Merlot (disambiguation). It was only very recently that Merlot supplanted Carignan in wine production and planting. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 10:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Whether it is moved back to Carignan or moved to Carignan (grape variety) (which I think would be acceptable given some people's views), it is clear to me that Carignane is an inappropriate title for the article on the grape variety. In addition to references mentioned above, the on-line Winegrape Glossary (which appears to be of American origin), as well as Oz Clarke's "Encyclopedia of Grapes" and Jancis Robinson's "Guide to Wine Grapes" (both mentioned above) give Carignan as the main name, with Carignane mentioned as the California synonym. It is clear to me that Carignan has become the principal name for this grape, even in English, and even in America when referring to the grape in a broad, international sense. So as far as I am concerned this article should not appear under the heading Carignane. --Alan W (talk) 03:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support. It's by far the most common name for the grape, even in English language sources (as mentioned in the two examples given by Alan W). I do think that this is also the primary use of the term. Few of the items on the disambig page are commonly referred to simply as "Carignan". I really do thing that a link to the disambig page from the grape's page is the best option. --- The Bethling^(Talk) 05:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Grape name should revert to the international spelling, and this is also the primary usage of the term. Andrewa (talk) 09:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Attribution section

Some items from Carignan Blanc section comes from the merged stub Carignan Blanc. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

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