Talk:Central Denmark Region

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We need to revert to "Central Denmark Region"

Hi. "Mid Jutland Region" is a made up name, while "Central Denmark Region" is the official name of Region Midtjylland in English.

You can see it here: Region Midtjylland (English), the official homepage for Region Midtjylland.

RhinoMind (talk) 14:06, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

The name Mid Jutlad is not "made up",

• It is the correct translation of ;idtjylland.
• It is used by the English versions of Visit Denmark and other publications.
• Into other languages, Midtjylland is tranlated in a similar way, see Deutsch-Dänische Handelskammer Greman and Danish board of trade, page 15:

https://www.ixpos.de/IXPOS/Content/DE/Ihr-geschaeft-im-ausland/_SharedDocs/Downloads/bmwi-markterschliessungsprogramm-2016/bmwi-mep-marktstudie-daenemark-gesundheitswirtschaft.pdf?v=2

Region Süddänemark, Region Seeland, Region Nordjütland, Region Midtjütland (consequently translated it would be Region Mitteljütland), Region Hauptstadt.

I have sent mails to both, Nordjylland and Midtjylland Regions, asking for the reasons of their strange translations.

If you won't accept the correct translations, we should use the untranslated names.

There are similar examples: Mecklenburg-Vorpommern consists of Mecklenburg and (traditional English term:) Hither Pomerania.--Ulamm (talk) 14:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, I have sourced that "Central Denmark Region" is the official name in English. I don't think there is much else to say in this matter. It might be a strange name but that doesn't change much. Everyone is welcome to use their own translation, but there is only one official one and that is "Central Denmark Region" apparently. RhinoMind (talk) 14:43, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

I can see that you have been busy on a lot of pages, changing the Central Denmark Region to Mid Jutland Region. Will you help revert yourself on all these pages? RhinoMind (talk) 14:45, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

If both regions use these names in their English presentations, this does not prove that they are official names in the meaning of legal names. Normally, each institution only decides how to be named in its own language.

Perhaps "North Denmark" and "Central Denmark" are nothing but PR gags.

Only few states with an illiberal culture do so, such as Belarus that wants to forbide anybody to say "White Russia", which in its various language versions is the traditionan term.--Ulamm (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

May 26, 2014 - We met the Chairman of the central Jutland region, one of the most powerful politicians in Denmark. ..--Ulamm (talk) 15:10, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

... Business Development Centre – Central Jutland…

Danish companies on the ascent: Toxic soil is big business in China – Apr 29, 2016 - The Capital Region of Denmark, the Central Jutland Region and the Danish Soil Partnership are now joining forces and strengthening their joint efforts

You see, also Danish publications in English use "Central Jutland Region".

During my corrections, I had to correct much less then I had expected. Obviously, most Wikpedians prefer correct translations.--Ulamm (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, Region Midtjylland does not use "Mid Jutland Region" in official papers, they use "Central Denmark Region" as explicitly described on their official homepage. The official name in English is not to be decided by two editors on Wikipedia.

About the last part of your post: People are free to use their own translations of Region Midtjylland. And I see that that is what happened when Jutland Station visited Bent Hansen. That's all fine. But it doesn't change what the official name in English is. If you like, you can include some text, describing that sometimes "Central Jutland" is used in English. That would probably be a good idea. But again, it doesn't change what the official name is.

When you start to introduce White Russia and talks about dictatorships and what have you, you lost me completely. RhinoMind (talk) 15:23, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Normally, the only official name of a Danish administrative structure is the name in Danish.

I only wanted to say, Denmark is a democratic country. Therefore nobody is forced to use the terms of one or a few official portals, while several Danish publications use other terms in their English texts.--Ulamm (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

That is also with lemmas: The official names of many cities include some advertising additions. "Spa / les Bains / Bad" is mostly taken for the Wikipedia lemma, geographical specifications, too. But many of these additions are not used in the Wikipedia lemmas.--Ulamm (talk) 15:42, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

We need to state the official name in English. RhinoMind (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Once more: Normally, the only official name of a Danish administrative structure is its name in Danish.

This way, getting a correct name_in_English affords a correct translation of the official name_in_Danish.--Ulamm (talk) 19:51, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Not true. Central Denmark Region is also the official name for Region Midtjylland in the EU administration. Look here: Central Denmark EU Office. RhinoMind (talk) 19:55, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Even the name of this office should not prevent us from preferring the correct translation.

But if the administrations of Nordjylland Region and Midtjylland Region prefer the wrong translations, that is somewhat unfriendly to verybody who wants to communicate in English with Denmark or about Denmark. If you have to choose between a correct name and a preferred name, ist is impossible to describe Denmark, correctly.--Ulamm (talk) 21:11, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

We are not to judge. It is simply a matter of what is official. And the official name in English is Central Denmark Region. RhinoMind (talk) 22:05, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, I think it is a weird English name too, but we need to use it nonetheless because it is the official name. As I have said before we could perhaps include some text about alternative names such as Central Jutland for example, but none of these alternative names are official. RhinoMind (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Just I have received the answers of website responsibles of both regions and sent a copy of them to your e-mail adress.

Both answers presume an extreme ignorance of the English speaking public:

"The decision to translate our name to Central Denmark Region was made based on the assumption that "Jutland" would not be recognized by everyone."

"Most people don't know Jutland, so therefore we chose to translate otherwise. …@rn.dk – NORTH DENMARK REGION"

I think en.wikipedia (individually, we both are no native speakers of English :) ?) should not accept nor transmit that despective attitude.--Ulamm (talk) 08:59, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for the mail and all. However, it doesn't change that the official name in English is Central Denmark Region. If the authorities should choose a different official name in English at some point in the future, we can make changes accordingly. Until then we need to implement the official name here on Wikipedia. RhinoMind (talk) 15:28, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Just a comment: Per Wikipedia:Official names, Wikipedia is under no obligation to use official names simply because they are official. We can use the most common, most readily understood, most accurately translated, etc., as the case may dictate. By the way, every English speaker acquainted with 20th-century naval warfare or the Anglo-Saxon period of English history knows the name "Jutland" (which obviously is the *English* name for Jylland). Q·L·1968 ☿ 16:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Central Denmark Region is an administrative construction from 2007. There are numerous geographical regions within Jutland, some of which are thousands of years old, and their names are still in use and no one is trying to curb that right in any way. When we talk about Region Midtjylland, the name in English is Central Denmark Region. Some of the traditional geographical names and regions are already mentioned within the article as is. Some of them have their own page up. RhinoMind (talk) 14:20, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

"When we talk about Region Midtjylland, the name in English is Central Denmark Region." Well, that's the very question, isn't it? Does anybody use this particular (and you have to admit, rather surprising) translation, apart from the website of the region itself? Personally, at my work, when I have occasion to note contacts in Aarhus, I put their region down as Mid-Jutland, which seems like the most natural English version to me. I honestly don't know what other English speakers do, however. Q·L·1968 ☿ 02:20, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi. Read the previous comments in this section. It's the official name in English in all administrative communications, also in the EU. Common alternatives are already in the article as is. RhinoMind (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Official names. Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:22, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I have. There is no consensus on alternative names for the administrative region of Central Denmark Region. Also, some of the alternative names in use are ambiguous as they connect with specific geographical regions not congruent with the administrative region of Central Denmark Region. This alone makes them unacceptable as titles. Also: Read the whole of this thread as it answers many of your questions already. RhinoMind (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, I actually read the whole thread above before commenting, and your only argument seemed to be that we have to use "Central Denmark Region" because it's the official name, which is simply not the policy. However, with your latest comment, "There is no consensus on alternative names for the administrative region of Central Denmark Region", we're finally getting somewhere. That's a fair comment; it would essentially be between "Central Jutland Region" or "Mid-Jutland Region", both of which are used in various English-language media. Which of the three is the most common or the most appropriate, I'm not sure how best to judge – people used to count Google hits, but that seems less helpful nowadays with the number of Wikipedia clones and the ways that Google tailors search results... Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Have you seen this: [1]? In the English version of the regions name, it was very important for the administration that it contained the word "Denmark". This was to signal which country the region belonged. Same argument for North Denmark Region and South Denmark Region. Also, most English speaking sources using alternative names doesn't seem to be very interested in or involved with the administrative background of the region. Most of them appears to be more concerned with the geographical side of things such as Midtjylland, Østjylland, Djursland or Vestjylland. This explains part of why they mess things up. In the Geography section of the article, there is a bit of info about the geographical and historical regions within the administrative structure to lift some of the confusion. RhinoMind (talk) 21:55, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Official name?

Statistics Denmark nomenclature of Regions, provinces and municipalities

English is not an official language in Denmark, and Danish entities do not have any "official name" in English. The only official names are those mentioned in Danish laws which are written in Danish. Thus, it is not necessarily correct to use the name "Central Denmark Region" just because the region chooses to do so in its English-language texts. The state entity Statistics Denmark, for example, doesn't translate the names of regions in its publications and all its tables. See the image to the right or website. The question is how far you should go in following a company or an organisation when it tries to market itself under a non-descriptive name in English? What if Schleswig-Holstein decides to market itself in English as "North Germany"? It is a complete mess – in addition to the fact that "North Denmark" and "Central Denmark" sound like meaningless words to a Dane. If such words are ever used, they are only heard in weather reports and maybe when the theme is geology. It is also rather misleading since Central Denmark is not where the Central/Mid Jutland Region is located. When you say Central Denmark to a Dane, he would assume you mean something centered on Samsø (the island between Jutland and Zealand) or maybe including Funen. Thus, the convention used in English media, and common sense and accuracy (as precise a translation as possible) are just as important as the name the region itself chooses to use. --Sasper (talk) 03:18, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi. I am sorry, but you don't seem to understand the underlying issue. Please read the lengthy thread above with all its references, it is important as there is no need to repeat everything.

To help out, I would like to sum up some of the main points though:

• The region is an administrative unit, not a geographical designation (this is also explained in the article itself). Therefore they can choose to call themselves whatever they want to in English or Danish.
• The region has an official office in the EU bureaucracy. And as English is an official administrative language of the EU system, the regions English name is important.
• All the various unofficial names, and various sub-regional geographical names as well, are all explained and used in the article as is, just not as name for the article itself (mainly because of #1 above).

RhinoMind (talk) 16:38, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi, from Germany, it seems to me, that renaming the article is your private project, RhinoMind! Indeed, it is not the job of some website, official or not, to decide, how local language names are translated in every language of the world, that is the job of the native speakers of those languages, maybe sometimes official foreign institutions choose to do that. Unless the government decides to do so like the one of Cote d'Ivoire, who forbad to translate it at all. Usually, most geographical names in a country do not have any translation in foreign languages, but if a (geographical) direction is part of the name, should it really be translated, in the lemma??? Especially, when in the original language, it is written in one word? I live in Frankfurt/Main, here I feel strange, whenever I hear in the train announcement our "Hauptbahnhof" translated to "main station" (not meaning the river), they could also use "head station" (the literal translation) or "central station", which is the name used as lemma in english Wikipedia. So please let english native speakers decide it! --188.97.169.53 (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not the one who wanted to rename the article. I insisted on keeping the official name. And I presented the reasons and arguments for why the official name was Central Denmark Region. They are still valid. RhinoMind (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2020 (UTC)