Talk:Ernest Hemingway

Rfc about detailed Hemingway's whereabouts during Spanish Civil War

Should the section Spanish Civil War contain the below paragraphs? For details and arguments exchanged, please see above --Hh1718 (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

"On February 27, 1937 Hemingway sailed for Europe, on March 16 he flew from Toulouse to Barcelona, and few days later via Valencia he drove to Madrid. From there he made visits to the frontline at Sierra de Guadarrama, the Jarama and Brihuega. In early April he witnessed combat at Casa de Campo and was again at the Jarama, in Morata de Tajuña and Fuentidueña de Tajo, while later that month he was again at the Guadarrama. On May 3 he boarded a plane provided by the government and flew directly to Paris. He then spent around a week in France before boarding the Normandie for return voyage to New York.

In late August 1937 aboard the French liner Hemingway made it across the Atlantic to France. On September 6 he flew from Paris to Barcelona and then to Valencia, and in mid-September he toured the Aragon frontline near Belchite. Later he visited the guerilla training camp in Benimamet and still in September he spent few days on the Teruel front. By the end of the month he was in Madrid. In early October he visited Brunete. The next few weeks were spent in the capital, with some appearances on Ciudad Universitaria and Usera sections of the frontline. In mid-December he drove to the Teruel again, witnessing the Republican offensive until he was able to enter the city. He then shuttled between Valencia and Teruel. Hemingway spent the Christmas and New York period in Barcelona, before leaving for Paris in early January 1938. On January 12 he boarded Gripsholm and returned to the US.

Aboard Île de France Hemingway arrived in Cherbourg in late March 1938, and on March 31 he drove from Perpignan to Barcelona. In early April he visited the Aragón front and then the Ebro bend, including Gandesa and Tarragona, before returning to Barcelona. Once the Nationalists broke through to the Mediterranean, he went to the frontline few miles from Vinaròs; in late April a few times he shuttled between Barcelona and the Ebro and was once on the Lerida front. In early May he flew to Marseilles, but returned to Alicante few days later. Via Valencia he approached the Castellón frontline, and on May 9 he again checked into a hotel in Madrid, but there is no information on his trips to the frontline. In late May he flew from Madrid to Paris and on May 25 he boarded Normandie, bound for New York.

On August 31 Hemingway, again aboard Normandie, departed US for Cherbourg, but this time he spent in Paris almost 2 months. It was only on November 4 that he flew to Barcelona. The following day he drove to the Ebro, just on time to witness last Republican troops returning to the left bank. He made one tour across Catalonia, but not to the frontlines. On November 7, after just 3 days in Spain, he drove to Perpignan and then travelled to Paris. Following few weeks in Paris, on November 24 he was back in New York."

--Hh1718 (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• Wait. Victoria has indicated above she is working in sandbox, so this RfC is premature. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Oppose. I'm still working on it but want to see how the World War II section ends up - another period when he abandoned a wife, gained a wife, and covered a war. The article is 8762 words long, so pushing the limit. And the article has to adhere to Wikipedia:Featured article criteria.
  Basically I still believe the proposed edit gives some unnecessary (undue) detail while leaving out other important events. He went to Spain four times. Twice in 1937 & twice in 1938. During the first trip he worked with Joris Ivens on the filming of The Spanish Earth, which was screened later that summer at the White House for FDR. During the next trip he wrote his only play. The 1938 trips resulted in For Whom the Bell Tolls, which he didn't start until March 1939. Also during these years he was traveling & basically living with Martha Gellhorn & his relationship with Pauline was ending. He left his home in Key West after the final Spain trip & moved to Cuba. Finally I kept in and bulked up the trip to China w/ Martha because the geopolitics are important and lead directly to the outbreak of WWII. I have not used Muller to source the entire section because these events are discussed in other biographies as well.
  I believe all these events need to be mentioned in the main biography. I've left out but would like to fit in the exessive drinking while at home in Key West, the verbal abuse, the episodes of violence, plus much about getting The Fifth Column staged - eventually published in a volume of short stories - all quite well presented in Muller.
  It's difficult and not necessary (though interesting) to add the specific details of the traveling from place to place, via ship, plane, car. In terms of battles, the article does include Belchite/Teruel/Ebro.
  Muller is a really good source about an important period for Hemingway, a period that informed, in my opinion, his best work. I'm wondering whether we might want to split off a subarticle, Ernest Hemingway during the Spanish Civil War?
  In the meantime, I'm doing the best I can. If Hh1718 wants the text exactly as written in the RfC, then we'll have to let the RfC go forward & see what happens. Victoria (tk) 16:30, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

• The WWII section is now finished & the two sections "Spanish Civil War" and "World War II" come in at about the same word count (656 & 674), it makes sense not to add much more detail in the Spanish Civil War section, per Wikipedia:Summary style. Victoria (tk) 21:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as currently suggested (which is the only thing available to !vote on here). Let's see what the sandboxed version looks like. - SchroCat (talk) 17:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  I seem not to have been clear. I reworked the section, added the requested source, and it's all back in mainspace now (actually, I've been working in mainspace). Victoria (tk) 17:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  Well, don't I feel a bit silly now! - SchroCat (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

  Well, to be honest it's kinda hidden in the very long comment above where the rationale for what should be in & what out is delineated. Plus I've not been communicating well recently. Once I'm through the entire article I'll swing through that section again, but do not support the inclusion of text above as written. Victoria (tk) 18:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2024

Under the section titled "Cuba and the Nobel Prize" in the fourth paragraph (starting with "While in Africa") the following sentence should be changed to remove an erroneous "broke":

Current: "Hemingway sustained injuries to his back and shoulder; Mary broke sustained broken ribs and went into shock."

Change: "Hemingway sustained injuries to his back and shoulder; Mary sustained broken ribs and went into shock." ZaCurt (talk) 21:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oops! Thanks for the catch. Fixed now. Victoria (tk) 22:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Images

Congratulations on TFA. Wonderful photos in this article. Maybe after this is off the main page, someone can fix the MOS:SANDWICHes. They seem to be at least in part the result of adding "upright=1" to vertical images, which is the same as nothing according to Help:Images. I'm no expert on the subject and just happened to notice. Thank you for this article. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:10, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks SusanLesch! Actually using only "upright" displays at 75%, vs. 100%. I boosted some of them a bit by adding the extra parameter, because I like pictures. On my small laptop display they look okay, but of course that means nothing because they render differently according to skin, operating system, browser & device. Once this is off the main page I'll play around with them a bit if there's sandwiching. Thanks for posting. Victoria (tk) 23:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Victoriaearle. Enjoy them while you can. No question they are wonderful images. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi SusanLesch, I've tweaked a bit, shrunk most of them a smidge, and removed the two the made their way back during the TFA, although I'd removed them earlier because I can't establish that they're in the public domain. Does it look any better for you? Also, which sections are the worst? I'm happy to rejig a bit more if needed. Victoria (tk) 23:52, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Looks good, Victoriaearle. A sandwich appears in the caption of the first two images in §World War I and §Paris. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Huh. I was so focused on adding alt text that I completely failed to notice how bloated the captions have become. Not just in that section but throughout. I won't get to it this evening, because I need to look through article history to see how they were written before becoming so long. Will try to get to it tomorrow. Thanks so much for pointing it out. Funny the things we don't see. Or I don't see. Victoria (tk) 23:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

It's a tricky trade-off. Sighted people want to see what they want to see. Unsighted or less-sighted have reason to expect Wikipedia will serve up the most accessible version possible. I still struggle to understand what is best for optimum accessibility. The article I work on looks nothing like it did when first put together—originally to my taste. Other editors will copy an article just because it's featured, so I am interested to find the most accessible default view. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:33, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Writing style

the opinion that sentences without subordination are "childlike" should be deleted 2001:569:BC63:2E00:F912:EF2E:1059:DA4E (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Per the cited source:

“ … about 70 percent of the sentences are simple sentences — a childlike syntax without subordination — and repetition is often substituted for subordinate thoughts… it is the paratactic syntax most often found among children who have not yet learned to subordinate their ideas one after another without any relationships between them. ”

At Wikipedia we follow our sources. General Ization ^Talk 18:40, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I have never read Ernest's works, but I have often encountered the nickname "Hemingway" for people whose phrases are overly repetitive in writing or in speech. Dimadick (talk) 05:52, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Idaho and suicide

Why is the gun described as a Boss shotgun? I feel like this section should address the more recent theories that it was a W&C Scott and sons shotgun, as this seems to be the widely accepted belief of fact now. The current citation for Meyers 1985 could be replaced by Calabi 2016. Emyn420 (talk) 05:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)