Talk:Erzurum

Armenian name should be included as an alternative native name

Providing alternative names to geographical locations is supported per Wikipedia:NCPLACE. In this case, the Armenian name Կարին (Garin), should be added to the article since, as the article states, the area was heavily populated by Armenians throughout much of its history. See General Guidelines section in Wikipedia:NCPLACE: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." According to this principal, we should place the Armenian name of the city or of any other minority living in Erzurum that has produced a significant presence. See Diyarbakir or Gulf of Finland as examples. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:29, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Can you tell me, there is a strong reason to Armenian name stay there? Expect that Armenian name, currently, there are four name in section of Name and etymology. Ottoman Turkish, Latin, Kurdish, Greek! Why, only the Armenian name? This is a clear example of your violate of WP:NPOV. The Armenian population is not in question in the city and previous name was not Armenian anyway in the Ottoman Empire! Example of Gulf of Finland: Four countries are basin, it's a very natural. Can you explain Alexandroupoli, Komotini, Didymoteicho, Xanthi...Thousands of Turks living there. Armenian name should stay Name and etymology! Next edit war, this issue, along with other Turkish cities will go to the WP:ARB! Maurice07 (talk) 11:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I never added the Armenian name and if other minorities do lived or presently live in Erzurum, I would gladly put it along side the Armenian name. I also don't mind if Alexandroupoli, Komotini, Didymoteicho, Xanthi has a Turkish name in the lead but this is not the topic of discussion we should be having here on this talk page. If you feel we need to add Turkish names, please refer to their talk pages. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Kmoksy removed the Armenian name from the lead three times. The user claims "Armenian name is not current". And as noted by EtienneDolet, the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) states:

“ Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. ”

I invite him to the talk page to discuss the issue. I'd like to hear his arguments. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The city a Turkish city, not Armenian city.--Kmoksy (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Please read the guidelines. It clearly states that the name used by "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted" to be used in the lead. Erzurum had a significant Armenian population until 1915 (the last Armenians left in early 1918). Numerous 17-19th century sources call it the "capital of Turkish Armenia",[1] including English historian Edward Gibbon.paragraphy 6 "Arzeroum, the modern capital of Turkish Armenia" [2]

And after all, the history section of this article talks about its Armenian population. The Armenian name is clearly relevant. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:34, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

So we should add Urartu, Azeri, Georgian, ... names also? Because those peoples lived also in Erzurum. Beshogur (talk) 15:30, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Just because Chinese people live in Vancouver should not mean we must add Chinese as an alternative language. As far as I'm concerned, Erzurum/Garin played an intrinsic role in the development of arts, literature, and culture for the Armenian people for centuries, especially during the medieval period. If you can somehow prove that Georgians and Azeris had such a significant presence in this town for centuries, by all means place them there. However, that'll be quite a difficult task since we had this same discussion at the Kars article and it proved to be negative. If there's barely any proof for Georgian and Azeri presence in Kars, I highly doubt that would be the case in Erzurum. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:27, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Anyway we should add the Azerbaijani or Ottoman name (Revan/Erivan) into Yerevan article because, the city had before 50% Azeri population before? Beshogur (talk) 10:03, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

You don't seem to grasp the point EtienneDolet is driving at. The point isn't whether or not Yerevan had a significant Azerbaijani population or not - it's their relation to that city. Erzurum's original name was Karin/Garin, a name that was used, as far as we can tell, for close to two millennia by their original inhabitants, the Armenians. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 15:46, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Therefore I said: See the name and etymology section, you can see the Armenian name here. Erzurum has not Armenian population now, nor Kurdish, so you can't add Armenian language. What if we add Arabic/Turkish/Azeri name into Yerevan article? Because Yerevan word comes from Arabic: Revan, so to walk. Beshogur (talk) 17:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

You really need to (re)read WP:NCGN. It concerns not only those living there currently, but those who lived there in the past as well. See: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Garin falls in both criteria. As for your argument to use the Azerbaijani name for Yerevan: that has long been debated and there's a long standing consensus to not have the Azerbaijani name for Yerevan and not have the Armenian name for Baku, since both populations have contributed greatly to both of their respective cities. And Yerevan doesn't come from the Arabic. That's WP:FRINGE theory, and it's the first time I've ever heard that. Yerevan comes from Erepuni, its old Urartian name. -puni was supplemented by -van meaning town or city. Other cities, such as Tatvan (in Turkey), Nakhchivan (in Azeribaijan), Stepanavan, Ijevan, Byureghavan, Charentsavan (all in Armenia), etc. etc. all have these stems. There's also another theory that claims Yerevan was named after Yervand, an ancient Armenian king of the Yervandian dynasty. This is corroborated with the establishment of Yervandashat. This all happened long before the arrival of the Arabs. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Still no answer. Beshogur (talk) 11:50, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Erzurum was inhabited by Armenians for millenia. The Azeri name of Yerevan is simply a different spelling of the original Armenian name. Karin is the Armenian name of the city used for many centuries before Turkic influx to the region. --Երևանցի ^talk 12:59, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Karin / Garin should be there because it is a fully alternative name for the city - it has no linguistic connection to the name "Erzurum", so comparisons with the various variations of the name Yerevan, (Erivan, Irvan, Revan, etc.) are false comparisons. The argument that it is not a current "official" name is equally invalid - alternative names can be (and in fact most often are) unofficial or historical ones. The name Karin is still in active use in academic literature that deals with the history of the settlement (for example, we have the 2003 book titled "Armenian Karin/Erzurum" by Richard G. Hovhannisian (ed.)) and I think (though can't provide a source for this) that the name Karin is still widely used by Armenians when they refer to Erzurum. However, my feeling is that Karin should not have the Armenian transliteration before it, but after it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Lowest recorded temperature

At the climate section, it is stated "The lowest recorded temperature is −37.2 °C (−35.0 °F), on 28 December 2002." But then on the table below that, there are temperatures listed as -41 ºC. Which one is it?

2001:8A0:F252:ED01:D482:F72A:D175:C6D6 (talk) 08:48, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Armenian name of the city

Armenian "name" of Erzurum are not requires. There are no Armenians living in Erzurum. Why are you writing the Armenian name of the cities in eastern Anatolia? Erzurum is Turkish city. Are you supporting the territorial claims of Armenia on the Erzurum and Eastern Anatolia? Ahmet7007 (talk) 10:23, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2020

The page contains wrong information about the city's emblem. There is no such thing as Anatolian Seljuk Eagle, it is the Roman / Byzantine double headed eagle that has a Wikipedia page already. Editors should replace the hyperlink to point to that page, instead of the current re-direct to the Rum page. 94.70.2.94 (talk) 20:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The Seljuk Eagle and the Roman Eagle are both actual things. Which is correct as the city's symbol needs to be established with reliable sources. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:03, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

No freedom of information

I see that Wikipedia has turned out to be Genopedia. Might as well change the name of the article to Armenizurum! I have no interest in edit warring or wasting my time with ignoramuses who have nothing better to do but swim in their own sewers. You can keep censoring. All of it is being recorded and archived. Future generations will be ashamed of your actions because you have no shame left.

I will say this to some partial pro-Armenian POV editors: What genocide? It’s not a genocide when it’s not officially commissioned. 786wave (talk) 04:11, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Fethullah Gülen

On another note, there are claims online about Fethullah Gülen, the head of the Gulen Movement, having Armenian roots. Not surprising considering the Ottoman Empire was composed of many nationalities and intermarriages occurred. We should do some serious research on the topic and perhaps move him under the “Others” subtitle. However, this research should be done by impartial and informed users, and not flag waving POV editors who are supported by certain agendas. 786wave (talk) 04:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

You can try to do so first at his own Wikipedia article and see how the consensus will be there.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:40, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Serengülian

Serengülian was killed by a brigand while serving his prison term for crimes against the state before the alleged genocide started. Suffice it to look at his article on Wikipedia. That’s where I got this info. So I added a source too. Why keep reverting it and insisting on a different narrative? Is there no middle way? 786wave (talk) 12:09, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Because the notion is absurd and no one takes Turkish official historiography at its word? Just a thought. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 12:45, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

At the Vartkes Serengülian Wikipedia article it is stated that he was killed by Cerkez Ahmet. Then also to come up with a former Turkish Minister called Veysel Eroglu as a source for Armenian matters will have no consensus on Wikipedia.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:35, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

No true historian or serious researcher can take genocide propagandists seriously either. It’s just an agenda with no official records to prove it. My earlier comments still stand. :) 786wave (talk) 04:07, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle, you have little say considering your edit history. However, I would like to point out that you also lack understanding based on you missing the info in the Serengülian article mentioning his killing BEFORE the so-called genocide. Just in case others “miss” it too. LOL 786wave (talk) 04:19, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Arabic origin of the current name of the city

The origin of the current name of the city comes from Arabic. Now I know some radical pro-Armenian editors (you know who you are) will try to vandalize and revert this fact. Keep in mind that you cannot change certain undeniable facts, especially when they are reliably sourced. Right? 786wave (talk) 05:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2021

They lie, undermine and marginalize the Kurdish population count and influence. The article is so on sided. Rushk97 (talk) 06:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Not done – please clarify Before sending such a request, please state what needs to be done in your opinion, in a 'change X to Y' format. Uness232 (talk) 10:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2021

Wrong info - Armenian heritage is hidden David Sargsyan 777 (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Run n Fly (talk) 14:04, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Koppen Climate classification

It should be Dfb not Dsb since none of six warmest months are at least a third drier than coldest six months. 92.40.174.208 (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

You're right, per the 1991-2020 data, Erzurum is Dfb; although probably not for the reasons you think. It was not Dfb by 1981-2010 normals, because Köppen does not define 'summer' and 'winter' using warmer/colder months, per this study: in here, 'Summer' is defined as April to September. Uness232 (talk) 01:58, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2023

Remove Template:Metropolitan municipalities in Turkey. With the exception of Istanbul, where the link Istanbul Province redirects to the city, all the links go to provinces which are NOT equal to the cities their named after. 68.109.180.231 (talk) 22:58, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lightoil (talk) 04:16, 20 May 2023 (UTC)