Talk:Heyuannia

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Ajancingenia goes here?

That was a pretty interesting development, so we now have the only oviraptorid genus that isn't monospecific? In that case, it seems our life restorations of Heyuannia are probably wrong, since they do show some kind of diminutive crests, which it probably didn't have, going by "Ajancingenia"? FunkMonk (talk) 17:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Hehe, hopefully Citipati sp. nov. gets described soon... As for restorations, I think only Dinoguy's requires fixing. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 18:03, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I was kinda hoping it would get a mention in that new paper! I'm thinking of removing those restorations (also the one with the eggs) for now, since we already have so many images. I'll copy a cladogram to here to make more space... FunkMonk (talk) 18:06, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Or should I make another cladogram? The new paper has one. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 18:10, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Oh, even better idea! I'll wait with the images until then. FunkMonk (talk) 18:11, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Here it is, though unfortunately it's got a giant, ugly polytomy... Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 18:48, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Oviraptorosauria

Similicaudipteryx yixianensis Caudipteryx zoui Caudipteryx dongi Incisivosaurus gauthieri Luoyanggia liudianensis Ningyuansaurus wangi Avimimus spp. Caenagnathidae Microvenator celer Gigantoraptor erlianensis Hagryphus giganteus Anzu wyliei Epichirostenotes curriei Caenagnathus collinsi Caenagnathasia martinsoni Chirostenotes pergracilis Leptorhynchos elegans Apatoraptor pennatus Elmisaurus rarus Oviraptoridae Nankangia jiangxiensis Ganzhousaurus nankangensis Nomingia gobiensis Yulong mini Oviraptor philoceratops Rinchenia mongoliensis Citipati osmolskae Citipati sp. Banji long Wulatelong gobiensis Shixinggia oblita Khaan mckennai Conchoraptor gracilis Machairasaurus leptonychus Jiangxisaurus ganzhouensis Nemegtomaia barsboldi Heyuannia huangi Heyuannia yanshini

• Ah, for this page at least, we should probably restrict it to Oviraptoridae anyway. The whole thing can maybe be placed in the oviraptorosaur article. Oh, and continuing form the image review page, Ganzhousaurus doesn't really seem to cluster with anything here... FunkMonk (talk) 19:36, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Just Oviraptoridae. As for Ganzhousaurus, we could bracket it with Nankangia if necessary... Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 21:15, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Oviraptoridae	Nankangia jiangxiensis Ganzhousaurus nankangensis Nomingia gobiensis Yulong mini Oviraptor philoceratops Rinchenia mongoliensis Citipati osmolskae Citipati sp. Banji long Wulatelong gobiensis Shixinggia oblita Khaan mckennai Conchoraptor gracilis Machairasaurus leptonychus Jiangxisaurus ganzhouensis Nemegtomaia barsboldi Heyuannia huangi Heyuannia yanshini

• Looking good! I'll add it and do some image editing... FunkMonk (talk) 21:27, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Added. And by the way, seems the skull (ZPal Mg-D I/95) in the Headden reconstruction of Ingenia[1] has been referred to Conchoraptor... So I'm not sure if it is known whther Heyuannia had a crest or not? FunkMonk (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

The skull bones of the H. huangi type appear to be quite mushed, but I think the original inference that it was crestless is reasonable. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 21:51, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Ajancingenia does not have a skull. The skull that is "has" is the holotype of Conchoraptor (per the new paper). IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 23:51, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Apparently, another partial skull was referred to Ingenia in 1983 (MPC-D 100/31), but has since been lost... So it could be possible to infer something from it (there are figures left)... But I note both Heyuannia species cluster with Nemegtomaia, which does have a crest... FunkMonk (talk) 23:56, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

This very discussion shows what a bad idea it is to merge Ajancingenia with Heyuannia. We are now about to combine the morphologies of two taxa, merely because they have been put into the same genus? While the sinking of Ajancingenia was advised by Cau precisely because "belonging to the same genus" is meaningless anyway?

There are some cogent points to make against a merge:

1. In general, it is unwise to change the lemma structure every time a new taxonomic opinion is published. Let's see whether a scientific convention develops.
2. In this particular case, Ajancingenia was apparently sunk for unscientific (i.e. non-empirical) reasons, namely that Barsbold had not been contacted about the name and the content of the naming paper was partly stolen from Mortimer. This is not relevant for the empirical validity of the taxon (nor, I should add, for the nomenclatural validity of the name).
3. Cau correctly states that generic names are purely conventional. For this very reason however, it is poor scientific practice to classify multiple species into the same genus, as the identical name strongly suggests to the human mind that there is some special connection anyway. You immediately have not been able to resist this suggestion :o).
4. Whatever shall we do when some future analysis shows Ajancingenia and Heyuannia not to be sister species? We would be forced to use scare quotes in a "Heyuannia" yanshini section...--MWAK (talk) 08:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree it may have been a bit too quick, but if the result stabilises, we could have a paragraph stating their differences, as I for example wrote at Stegoceras. But yes, this seems more like the makeshift solution for Megapnosaurus, which was sunk into Coelophysis just to get rid of the name, but which now does not seem to belong to the same genus, unless many other genera are also sunk into it... FunkMonk (talk) 14:00, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Okay, what now? Do I revert my changes and pretend that nothing has happened? Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 17:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think the changes to this article should be reverted. We have have a situation similar to the one between Tarchia and Minotaurasaurus or Scolosaurus and Oohkotokia, where both articles exist, each reflecting a differing view on the situation. The difference being that they are proposed to be synonyms even at the species level, as far as I understand. Tyrannosaurus/Nanotyrannus and Triceratops/Torosaurus are also similar cases, and the list goes on. The question is when to do a merge or not, and it of course all comes down to when a consensus has emerged (unless the case is very clear cut). FunkMonk (talk) 17:34, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Certainly, they should not be reverted! The nomenclatural acts have happened and should obviously be mentioned. And the study is packed with important information.--MWAK (talk) 19:05, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Heyuannia yanshini

The paper probably says is it yes or no, the article says ajancingenia is a probable synonym or should we split ajancingenia to a independent page again???