Talk:Ivan Shishman of Bulgaria
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GA Review
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:Ivan Shishman of Bulgaria/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Piotrus (talk · contribs) 02:46, 10 November 2011 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
- Is it reasonably well written?
- A. Prose quality:
- But in lead the sentence "and brought the achievements of the Bulgarian culture." is missing "to them".
- B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
- 1) If there is a dab note, it should not be red, so can Ivan Shishman (artist) be stubbed? 2) I suggest moving Early life and Emperor of Bulgaria to 3rd level heading and creating a parent "biography". 3) Not enough blue links. From the lead: Bulgarian Empire, Ottomans, Tarnovo, Bulgarian culture - key terms that are not linked. The body seems better linked, although the Golden Age should be linked when used. 4) Why is Majorat capitalized? 5) The article is missing red links; per WP:RED, red links are good. I'd suggest looking at Bulgarian wiki to see if any terms are linked there but not here. For example, I'd assume that battle of Tarnovo is notable and should have an article (actually, it does, it is just not linked till Legends). Red links are needed for Anonymous Bulgarian Chronicle. Also, Jury Arnaudov and his Tsar Ivan Shishman movie. Shishman's Holes and Cherepish. Probably few more battles and wars could red linked. 6) "some sources suggest" - weasel warning, who suggests that? 7) Timeline is not a usual part of such articles, and as an unreferenced section, should probably be removed. 8) References use Cyrillic. Please translate all Cyrillic to Latin (it can be kept, but all non-Latin words should be transliterated). 8) Dab tool shows one self-redirect. Elink tool shows one 403 (Forbidden), please investigate.
- 1) I have removed that alltogether; I have never heard of that artist... 2) Done. 3) I have linked all suggestions. 4) Done. 5) I have put a link to the Siege of Tarnovo in the section "Fall of Bulgaria"; I doubt that there can be enough information for Anonymous Bulgarian Chronicle; if red links are made for the movie and the director, my guess is that they will always remain red - there many Bulgarian movies and almost none with interest in that field to create articles. Cherepish is a small area in the north of the Iskar gorge, it simply cannot have an article because it means nothing - there are, however, Cherepish Monastery and Cherepish Rocks. Shishman's Holes are a minor geographic feature, several little caves along the Cherepish Rocks, if there is an article it would have one or two sentences. What do you suggest with all those issues? 6) ...suggest that he was not beheaded, as is generally assumed, but imprisoned. But most sources suggest the first option. 7) Timeline is until now included in Featured and Good articles about Bulgarian monarchs, that is why it is included. 8) Hmmmmmmmmmmm....... it seems that there is no agreement in Wikipedia on that. I used to type the citations in Latin but in the peer review of Michael Shishman, a user who works usually with sources told me that the citations must be in Cyrillic and only in the references section they can be translated/translitarated. I had to convert all the citations to Cyrillic. Now you are saying I have to do the opposite... 9) Unfortunately I have no idea about such tools, can you do it yourself or help me with that issue? --Gligan (talk) 11:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Don't underestimate sources, or notability. I created a stub for Anonymous Bulgarian Chronicle, and I'd encourage you to expand it if you can from Bulgarian sources. We need to improve our coverage of non-English subjects like this. Also, please red link the director and the movie, I expect somebody will create articles on them (do they have one on Bulgarian wiki?). If you are sure those geo featureas are not notable, that's fine, but again, can you check Bulgarian wiki to see if it has an article on them? With regards to timeline and Cyryllic, could I ask you to start a thread about those at WP:GAN and ask others for opinion on what should we do, and/or links to relevant policies? The Dab and Elink tools are linked in the box to the upper right. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 18:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I thought you wanted an article for that particular chronicle, not for all anonimous chronicles but in any case you are right that with more search many things can be done ;) Both the director and the movie have stub articles in the Bulgarian Wikipedia, I have linked them. The geographic terms are really insignificant and have no articles in the BG Wiki. Cherepish, as I said, is just an ambiguous term of a small vaguely defined area. What have article and are significant are the Cherepish Rocks and the Cherepish Monastery. I will ask opinion in the talk page of GAN. As for the Dab and Elink, I have no idea what they are; I am really not good in such matters... Please make that correction and I will try to see from your edit whether I will learn about those things. --Gligan (talk) 19:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Click on this. See which link it mentions, find it in the article and see what's wrong with it.(seems fixed) Click on [1], see which links it complains about, and see if you can access them (it). Does it help? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:30, 10 November 2011 (UTC)- It does help, thank you very much :) My problem, it seems, is that I don't know how to access those pages you gave me links to. As for the 403 error - earlier today I tried to open it to search in Irechek's book about one of the citations you asked but to my surprise it said that access was forbidden. A few weeks ago everything was fine, I truly hope that problem will be fixed because currently all books at www.promacedonia.org are also inaccessible and they are a very, very valuable source. --Gligan (talk) 19:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, I thought you wanted an article for that particular chronicle, not for all anonimous chronicles but in any case you are right that with more search many things can be done ;) Both the director and the movie have stub articles in the Bulgarian Wikipedia, I have linked them. The geographic terms are really insignificant and have no articles in the BG Wiki. Cherepish, as I said, is just an ambiguous term of a small vaguely defined area. What have article and are significant are the Cherepish Rocks and the Cherepish Monastery. I will ask opinion in the talk page of GAN. As for the Dab and Elink, I have no idea what they are; I am really not good in such matters... Please make that correction and I will try to see from your edit whether I will learn about those things. --Gligan (talk) 19:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have found an article about one of the church councils in Tarnovo and I have included it as a red link. --Gligan (talk) 14:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Don't underestimate sources, or notability. I created a stub for Anonymous Bulgarian Chronicle, and I'd encourage you to expand it if you can from Bulgarian sources. We need to improve our coverage of non-English subjects like this. Also, please red link the director and the movie, I expect somebody will create articles on them (do they have one on Bulgarian wiki?). If you are sure those geo featureas are not notable, that's fine, but again, can you check Bulgarian wiki to see if it has an article on them? With regards to timeline and Cyryllic, could I ask you to start a thread about those at WP:GAN and ask others for opinion on what should we do, and/or links to relevant policies? The Dab and Elink tools are linked in the box to the upper right. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 18:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- 1) I have removed that alltogether; I have never heard of that artist... 2) Done. 3) I have linked all suggestions. 4) Done. 5) I have put a link to the Siege of Tarnovo in the section "Fall of Bulgaria"; I doubt that there can be enough information for Anonymous Bulgarian Chronicle; if red links are made for the movie and the director, my guess is that they will always remain red - there many Bulgarian movies and almost none with interest in that field to create articles. Cherepish is a small area in the north of the Iskar gorge, it simply cannot have an article because it means nothing - there are, however, Cherepish Monastery and Cherepish Rocks. Shishman's Holes are a minor geographic feature, several little caves along the Cherepish Rocks, if there is an article it would have one or two sentences. What do you suggest with all those issues? 6) ...suggest that he was not beheaded, as is generally assumed, but imprisoned. But most sources suggest the first option. 7) Timeline is until now included in Featured and Good articles about Bulgarian monarchs, that is why it is included. 8) Hmmmmmmmmmmm....... it seems that there is no agreement in Wikipedia on that. I used to type the citations in Latin but in the peer review of Michael Shishman, a user who works usually with sources told me that the citations must be in Cyrillic and only in the references section they can be translated/translitarated. I had to convert all the citations to Cyrillic. Now you are saying I have to do the opposite... 9) Unfortunately I have no idea about such tools, can you do it yourself or help me with that issue? --Gligan (talk) 11:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- 1) If there is a dab note, it should not be red, so can Ivan Shishman (artist) be stubbed? 2) I suggest moving Early life and Emperor of Bulgaria to 3rd level heading and creating a parent "biography". 3) Not enough blue links. From the lead: Bulgarian Empire, Ottomans, Tarnovo, Bulgarian culture - key terms that are not linked. The body seems better linked, although the Golden Age should be linked when used. 4) Why is Majorat capitalized? 5) The article is missing red links; per WP:RED, red links are good. I'd suggest looking at Bulgarian wiki to see if any terms are linked there but not here. For example, I'd assume that battle of Tarnovo is notable and should have an article (actually, it does, it is just not linked till Legends). Red links are needed for Anonymous Bulgarian Chronicle. Also, Jury Arnaudov and his Tsar Ivan Shishman movie. Shishman's Holes and Cherepish. Probably few more battles and wars could red linked. 6) "some sources suggest" - weasel warning, who suggests that? 7) Timeline is not a usual part of such articles, and as an unreferenced section, should probably be removed. 8) References use Cyrillic. Please translate all Cyrillic to Latin (it can be kept, but all non-Latin words should be transliterated). 8) Dab tool shows one self-redirect. Elink tool shows one 403 (Forbidden), please investigate.
- A. Prose quality:
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. References to sources:
- Last sentence of second para of Early life section is not referenced, also last in the first para in Legends. Few other sentences throughout the article are missing references. Overall almost everything is referenced, but please locate and fix the five or so unreferenced sentences. At least two (the first and third in "Assessment and legacy") could be seen as potentially controversial, same for the "Ivan Shishman is now among the most popular and well known rulers in the Third Bulgarian State." one, this is a very strong claim that needs a reference. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 03:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- I provided citations for most of the sentences you required. As for that, "Ivan Shishman is now among..." I could not find a place where it is directly said but it is very obvious since for few other rules there are songs or films... --Gligan (talk) 14:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Last sentence of second para of Early life section is not referenced, also last in the first para in Legends. Few other sentences throughout the article are missing references. Overall almost everything is referenced, but please locate and fix the five or so unreferenced sentences. At least two (the first and third in "Assessment and legacy") could be seen as potentially controversial, same for the "Ivan Shishman is now among the most popular and well known rulers in the Third Bulgarian State." one, this is a very strong claim that needs a reference. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 03:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
- Check, AGF on non-English sources.
- C. No original research:
- Check.
- A. References to sources:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- Yes. Only when I read "the rebels' leader claimed" and asked "who?" I was left wanting. Please add the rebel's leader name and link there. And perhaps a sentence on two on economic impact?
- The name of that leader is not known. That is a very common problem in Bulgarian history - there are simply not enough sources and information. That is why there are so many gaps in many monarchs' reigns; there are also almost no sources regarding economy, I will try to find something... --Gligan (talk) 14:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- If so, could we have a (cited) statement for "whose name is not known" or such (could be in the form of a note). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 18:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- That is mentioned within the page I have cited in the end of the sentence, I simply added that his name is unknown. --Gligan (talk) 19:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have added some information on the economy. --Gligan (talk) 13:39, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- That is mentioned within the page I have cited in the end of the sentence, I simply added that his name is unknown. --Gligan (talk) 19:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- If so, could we have a (cited) statement for "whose name is not known" or such (could be in the form of a note). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 18:14, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- The name of that leader is not known. That is a very common problem in Bulgarian history - there are simply not enough sources and information. That is why there are so many gaps in many monarchs' reigns; there are also almost no sources regarding economy, I will try to find something... --Gligan (talk) 14:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. Only when I read "the rebels' leader claimed" and asked "who?" I was left wanting. Please add the rebel's leader name and link there. And perhaps a sentence on two on economic impact?
- B. Focused:
- Check.
- A. Major aspects:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Check.
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- Check.
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- File:IvanShishman.jpg is missing the original source, ditto for File:Ivan Shishman 1.JPG. File:Ivan-shishman-coin-cng.jpg should be moved to commons. File:Second Bulgarian Empire after 1371.png is missing map sources, please contact the author and see if he can add them. Those are minor issues, however I'd like to see them fixed before this is passed.
- One of the sources of the map available in the Internet is that. I cannot find the orininal site, but you can see all maps of those series here, in the fisrt post. They are based on maps in different atlases. In the atlas I posses there is almost the same map but from after the Ottomans had conquered what is now south-western Bulgaria. The source for the first two images is the Tetraevangelia of Ivan Alexander. --Gligan (talk) 14:08, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- File:IvanShishman.jpg is missing the original source, ditto for File:Ivan Shishman 1.JPG. File:Ivan-shishman-coin-cng.jpg should be moved to commons. File:Second Bulgarian Empire after 1371.png is missing map sources, please contact the author and see if he can add them. Those are minor issues, however I'd like to see them fixed before this is passed.
- B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
- Check.
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail:
- Really nicely done, I am particularly impressed by the cultural significance section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 03:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for the review and the suggestions. I will answer the other remarks soon. --Gligan (talk) 11:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Excellent article, thanks for addressing my concerns. I am now passing it as a GA. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 01:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for the review and the suggestions. I will answer the other remarks soon. --Gligan (talk) 11:40, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Really nicely done, I am particularly impressed by the cultural significance section. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 03:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- Pass or Fail:
Etymology
editWhat does "shishman" mean? Is it a Bulgarian word? If not, a "good article" should address where the name comes from. --141.196.212.53 (talk) 18:33, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
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