Talk:Memory (Cats song)

Lyrics

Please note my temp stub. Note to future editors: DO NOT make a song article merely a recapitulation of its lyrics, or include more of them than can be considered to be "fair use" (eight bars), or the article will merely be removed again as a copyvio. Rlquall 01:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Two versions of the lyrics?

I'd like to see some information about why there are 2 different versions of the lyrics to Memory. The version on the full soundtrack album is different from the version in the highlights album and on the verious "Best of Andrew Lloyd Webber" CDs - the latter is the version that most people know. I'm assuming that this is because the song was positioned as a "single" for marketing purposes to promote the musical - after all, the version on the soundtrack album has some dialogue mixed in, so I can see why that would be taken out. But I don't see why the lyrics were changed so much. Any information? -Jaclyn 2 Mar 2006

there are two main reasons. One is that Memory is reprised several times in the show, calling for different lyrics for each. The second is that ALW originally asked Tim Rice to write the lyrics, which he did. ALW chose to use Nunn's lyrics instead of Rice's, but Rice's lyrics are still known and sometimes sung outside the show.

It would help to have the lyrics here for the comparison of TS Eliots original poems- and also Rice's lyrics -- also an explanation of what Puccini work it sounds familiar to --- it sounds vaguely familiar something from La boheme but I cannot put my finger on it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.44 (talk) 16:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

CATS

MEMORY - LYRICS (From the video)

63.3.2.1 (talk)

Lyrics removed as copyvio.--Richhoncho (talk) 15:34, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Melody

I heard somewhere that Andrew Lloyd Webber lifted the main melodic line of "Memory" from the second movement, titled "Gorgeous Pilot House", of the Mark Twain Suite by Jerome Kern. Can anyone find anything on this? - 209.86.226.56 (talk) 10:57, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

There is an Italian Cesare Andrea Bixio song, La Strada nel Bosco, whose melody, at least for the chorus, I think sounds identical. It is from the 1943 film Fuga a Due Voci. I think the song may have been performed after the original performance of Mark Twain: A Portrait for Orchestra. Webber may not have heard of this Italian 1943 film however a few lines from the the song are sung acapella by characters in the 1960 Vittorio De Sica non-musical film La Ciociara (English title: Two Women) starring Sophia Loren. La Strada nel Bosco, which was originally performed by Gino Bechi, and has also been performed by Claudio Villa and Luciano Pavarotti. I do not know when the Pavarotti and Villa performances happened or were first recorded however Villa passed away in 1987 at the age of 61.Halconen (talk) 00:42, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

RM

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result was: Moved. A majority of participants expressed this preference, and it was noted in the discussion that there is only one article in the encyclopedia on a song with this exact name. One oppose vote is premised on distinguishing this song from "cover versions", which is an invalid rationale, because cover versions of the song are addressed in the same article as the original song. bd2412 T 17:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Memory (Cats song) → Memory (song) – This is the primary topic as it is the most notable song. Other songs with this title do not have articles. The article was also moved without discussion. Relisted. BDD (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Simply south...... fighting ovens for just 7 years 11:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Even if there were other songs with this title with articles, this would still be the primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Necrothesp, Hi, are you aware that WP:NCM already had what WP:PDAB has recently confirmed? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

This is irrelevant since there is only one song of this name with an article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - the 2004 Sugarcult single "Memory" gets mention on album Palm Trees and Power Lines lead, which per WP:DAB and WP:DAB means (Cats __ ) is required. More important than the rule there are so many other songs on Memory (disambiguation) called "Memories" that there's potential for confusion with the plural, and anyone looking for it will find (Cats ___ ) helpful. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per IIO, the redirect at "(song)" should be restored to point to the disambiguation page -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per IIO, too. As per recently amended WP:DAB. --Richhoncho (talk) 12:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support primary topic. Sorry but a one line mention in a stub article isn't enough to convince me otherwise. Hot Stop talk-contribs 02:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

• Support a move to Memory (song). I agree with WP:PDAB that there is no primary topic for "(song)" or other disambiguators. However, the rule should be set aside in this case because 1) there are so many versions of the Cats song that readers may not even recognise that it originated with that musical and 2) there is only one article about a song named "Memory". The combination of these gives the proposal merit where it might not otherwise be warranted. (This won't make much difference for readers accessing the article through the dab page but it will make it easier for users suing Google or Wikipedia's search suggestions. And, no, don't waste your time creating an article about another "Memory" song.) —  AjaxSmack  03:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, to keep it clearly distinguished from the many cover versions. This page, which could use improvement, should authoritatively cover the original. Open to considering Memory (Cats) or Memory (Andrew Lloyd Webber), but prefer the current. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:40, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
  • But the cover versions are still the same song! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support This is the only article about a song by this name, and while the Sugarcult song probably meets WP:NSONG at least, it's pretty obvious that this well-known showtune meets WP:PRIMARYTOPIC compared to that one. --BDD (talk) 22:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support, primary topic for song. Theoldsparkle (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support – This article is about the song—both as a part of the musical and as stand-alone covers performed outside the musical. (Cats song) implies more limited scope to just the musical, and that's not what this article currently covers. Wbm1058 (talk) 18:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Opening sentence

' "Memory", often incorrectly called "Memories" '

Is it? It doesn't seem to me that it's routinely misnamed. Notreallydavid (talk) 08:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, at least i got the same impression/experience. --Kmhkmh (talk) 08:35, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

cover versions

Since this is a song from musical i think the cover section should be restructured to separate between actual (notable) covers by well known artists outside the outside the musical and the performers of the song in the London/West End and New York/Broadway casts (plus possible from other particularly known casts). The latter aren't really cover versions to begin with.--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:35, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 18 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved. See general agreement below to improve on the qualifier by adding "Cats" disambiguator in parentheses. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  11:36, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

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Memory (song) → Memory (Cats song) – Title is WP:INCDAB per conflict with "Memory" (Sugarcult song), recent discussion at Talk:Let It Be (Beatles song) seems necessary to refer to. TheKaphox T 15:29, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. More than one song article with this title. PC78 (talk) 15:50, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:TWODABS. There are two songs titled "Memory" on WP and this one is the overwhelming primary topic.[1] When 95% of readers want this song and the other 5% can get to the Sugarcult song directly through a hatnote, there is no benefit to forcing people to find what they want buried in a lengthy dab page. Station1 (talk) 17:03, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Applying WP:PTOPIC guidelines here seems unhelpful, as the Cats song is not a primary topic, else it would live at Memory (which understandably is an article describing the brain function). As far as I'm aware, there doesn't exist primary topics within disambiguators. Therefore, for as long as the song requires a disambiguation for being a song, it shall require disambiguation for being the song from Cats the musical. See WP:INCDAB and WP:PARTIALDAB guidelines. Thanks. TheKaphox T 17:18, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

The Cats song is the primary topic, by far, for the the search term "Memory (song)". The logic behind a primary topic is that most readers should land on the article they are seeking and not be surprised and/or inconvenienced by being sent somewhere else. That logic does not change simply because the article title happens to have parentheses in it. There are, in fact, primary topics with disambiguators, and discussions that have upheld them. Although there are many editors who feel as you do, there is certainly no consensus that a topic with a qualifier in its title can never be a primary topic. INCDAB and PRIMARYTOPIC are both part of the same guideline, which should be read as a whole, including that it "is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." We should always consider whether a proposed move will be a net benefit to readers, and in this case, it doesn't seem to be.. Station1 (talk) 17:41, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support per policy. Station1 if you want to change the way the Wikipedia titles articles it would be better to start an RFC to change WP:TITLE and rewrite WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to cause WP:PRIMARYCRICKETER WP:PRIMARYMOLLUSC etc to be the way the encyclopedia works. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:56, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

As noted above, both policy and practice allow for this article's current title. What exactly do you think would need to be changed? Station1 (talk) 18:32, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support. WP:PRECISE. The current is ambiguous. Ambiguous titles don’t help anyone. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:26, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: Should "Cats" not be in italics: "Memory (Cats song)"? Jmar67 (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes. That’s not really a title move issue, but a displaytitle issue. I assume someone will attend to it, but yes, you are right. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:37, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support per WP:PRECISION as a WP:PDAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"... most successful song ever from a musical."

The source for this is from the year 2006 which I would claim makes it outdated. Óli Gneisti (talk) 12:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC)