Talk:Patrington

Tramway

I have added a paragraph on an industrial tramway - if anyone local knows anything more about this operation please add more information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidvaughanwells (talk • contribs) 21:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC) This information was discovered after i had spotted a tramway on an OS map. Information supplied by the Industrial Railway Society in an e-mail has been re-produced here but I have no idea if this information is in print. Some idiot deleted this with the charming 'Complete Bollocks' comment - i suugest you write to the Industrial Railway Society and verify this your self rather than carry out vandlism of this nature.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

reproduced here

A 2 ft (610 mm) gauge railway ran to the east of the village. Operated by Patrington Quarries Limited the line served sand and gravel pits located south of Haverton Hall with a northern terminus located on the Patrington to Welwick road (B1445). Operated by three diesel locomotives these were reported derelict by 1958 and subsequently scrapped..

Firstly I am not an idiot.

Where is "Haverton Hall" - I couldn't find it on any OS map- there is a "Haverfield House" south of the B1445 between Welwick and Patrington

There is no obvious evidence of extraction north or south of the B1445 between Welwick and Patrington on current maps or aerial surveys.

A 1956 1:10560 OS maps shows no evidence of any sort of quarrying in this area. Nor do later maps. The 1956 map shows essentially no change in field boundaries, roads, or other structures going back to 1900.

The fact that usually reliable OS maps show no evidence lead me to conclude that this was wp:complete bollocks.

Is it possible that you are the victim of misinformation, or a hoax? If you are sure of this information please supply a map coordinate for the quarry, and dates of operation so I can check this.

reverted http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Patrington&diff=490863749&oldid=490857999

Oranjblud (talk) 22:48, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Also the company "Patrington Quarries Limited" is not turning up on a Companies House web search.Oranjblud (talk) 22:59, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

It seems you have run into some of the dead ends I have. I first spotted the tramway on OS sheet 99 - the 1951/2 revision which was reprinted in 1955. I have taken a scan of this and posted it on my FLICKR accout for you to verify.If you paste this into your browser it should come up with the image. http://www.flickr.com/photos/51559339@N05/7001910762/ or failing that just enter Patrington tramway flickr into google. I am not sure if this is copyright. Since then I acquired the sheet below - 105 (same years) - which does not show the tramway. Study of the current OS maps shows some disused pits south west of Haverfield House (yes my mistake - mea culpa). These are located as 317 (east) 204 (North).

The one success I had in finding the existence of the tramway was with the Industrial Railway Society who have extensive records of all sorts of railways and the reply from Bob Darville is reproduced below. I am happy to send you a copy of the e-mail or you can contact Bob through the IRS should you require further proof. I do not believe this to be a hoax.

"This site would be the one operated by Patrington Quarries Ltd. - Sand & Gravel Pits. Our records show that this had a 2' 0" gauge railway system operated by three small diesel locos. All three of the locos were derelict in March 1958 and were subsequently scrapped. The pits were closed - date not known, and everything was just abandoned. Not much on this I'm afraid, but these notes may help.

There is no photographic evidence of this location and the only information we have from this site was a report from one of our members in 1958. Nothing else I'm afraid".

I do accept that these are two thin bits of evidence and hence my original request at the top of this page. I do believe it is right to post something on the page, because someone else might have another piece of the puzzle and felt this was the correct way to proceed. I have written to the residents of Haverfield House today in the hope they can shed some more light on the existence of the line but it could be that the above is all there is.

I therefore appeal to you to restore the tramway secction to the main page (with corrected location) as I think there is enough evidence that it did exist and hopefully we might be able to find out some more information. If I get a reply (of any kind) to my letter I will post it here.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I see the tramway now on the 1956 1:10560 map (This is very odd -I looked very closely before but didn't see it) - Apologies for that. There is no evidence on the 1951 map (which may help date it).

There are what look like extraction pits at the end of the tramway - These are still visible as two ponds http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.656867354270894~0.0039065741882193805&lvl=16&dir=0&sty=s&eo=0&form=LMLTCC

The extraction seems to have been northwest along the south of the drainage channel called the "Pant drain". There is another pit noted on current OS maps at http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=53.66196625795292~-0.008538875640882182&lvl=16&dir=0&sty=s&eo=0&form=LMLTCC

On the 1956 1:10560 OS map the tramway terminates at the place named "Oxlands Hills" there appear to be separate very short tramways (NW/SE running) along the pits, not connected to the main tramway, but the map quality is not very good in that edition.

Oddly the 1951 1:10560 map appears to show field boundaries corresponding to the tramway running west of Haverfield House, but no tramway indicated.

There is nothing on a ~1945 map http://ooc.openstreetmap.org/?zoom=15&lat=53.683563&lon=-0.011264&layers=B0000

Technically this is (all) with the civil parish of Welwick, despite the company name. I have added what I can verify to that article.

Please accept my apologies for my incredulity - in my defence the OS maps I was looking at are uncharacteristically poor.

Please feel free to expand on this at the entry at Welwick. Usually a published source is needed.. This could be problematic if nothing has been published - maybe the IRS could put something online? If the locos details have been published in a IRS report then that would be a good source of the gauge details etc.

The remains of the pits are referred to as "Haverfield pits" by naturalists eg wetland bird survey - but I haven't been able to find out anything of note about them.Oranjblud (talk) 23:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I found this entry in an index of the Hull Times: "Holderness Geological curiosity Haverfield sand & gravel pit 1.10.38.6" in [1], see http://www.rbarnard.karoo.net/rb-home.html - the date appears to be 1938 - this seems to confirm my suspicion that the pits predate the railway - it looks like there was a track west from the pits to Patrington Haven - this still partly exists.

I'll look up this at the library (when I remember) to see if it says anything else - it also confirms the usage of the name "Haverfield pits" early on.Oranjblud (talk) 00:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts here and my apologies for not coming back to you sooner. – I see you have put something on the Welwick page – thanks that’s great. Lets hope my letter to Haverfield House brings some more information. I think it was a very short-lived enterprise and lightly laid. I have enquired of another couple of railway sources nothing yet. With regard to the 1951 map I wonder of the lines at right angles could possibly have been conveyors to the rail head. It seems strange to have a railway at right angles or it could be the curves were just missed in the drawing stage. I hope you have some luck with your visit to the library. --Davidvaughanwells (talk) 09:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you've seen the 1956 map - you can (sort of) see it here http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?txtXCoord=532348&txtYCoord=420049 by selecting the 1956 option - though the zoom does let you see close up.

The map is odd - the main track does even use the cross hatched narrow gauge symbol (eg suggests standard gauge, though it is marked TRAMWAY) as per 1:10560 guide. The smaller lines do use the tramway line symbols. There's a sharp bend in one so I guess it's not a conveyer. The layout as drawn doesn't make a lot of sense..

I've still got the library check on the list of things to do - I doubt it will tell much more about the tramway, but may give a start date for the extraction, or other related helpful info.Oranjblud (talk) 14:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Hull Times, 1938

The Hull Times report was far more detailed than I had hoped or expected (I was expecting 1 paragraph). It has an image of the loco and wagons, and of the gravel separating machinery.

As the content is still in copyright I can't upload it here (it's not my work etc). I've uploaded a copy to flickr, with two additional scans of the image (due to copying issues). These are for educational/research purposes (it's technically probably not ok to link from the article to them..)

Here's the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/78797534@N02/ (There were some issues with the automatic scanning machine, but as the individual 'dots' on the photographs are visible I don't think any real information was lost - it's just a bit more grainy.

Hopefully the text will be readable, if anyone can't read it leave a note here, and I can type out any hard to read bits. - it is legible if you zoom in..)

I've updated the welwick article. I've stated that extraction started "in the 1930s" as the article dates from 1938, though it had been going on before that date, I'm 99% certain not for more than 8 years.

There are some notes on the images - re the tramway - see http://www.flickr.com/photos/78797534@N02/7218592374/in/photostream - I noticed that there are tracks to the bunkers running at right angles to the line the train is on. This means that the track was more complex than that shown on the OS map. The article also mentions that initially extracted aggregate was transported to the washing machine by hand or by horse - I think/assume this was also on a tramway - and might correspond to one of the tracks running parallel to the pits I saw on the map which didn't appear to be connected to the main track to the B road.

That's all I can provide on the line, - if anyone has an suggestions that might lead to more information, please make them. If anyone can identify the wagons and locomotive from the image I would be interested to know.Oranjblud (talk) 01:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC) Bob Darvill from the Industrial Railway Society has identifed the locomotive. In an e-mail to me dated 19/05/2012 he has written "the loco is actually German built. It was built by Arn Jung in 1934 and was supplied via the London agent The Standard Steel Co.; works number 5833. It would be interesting if a good copy of this photo could be found. Hope this helps."--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 10:09, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I can see the family resemblance with other jung locomotives eg File:Strube Bahn 1.jpg. I wondered about the image - but have no idea about an archive - if or where it exists. Possibly an archive might have been inherited by the current Hull Daily Mail (they do have a photo archive), but the two don't appear to be related journals. It's tempting to think that where one photo exists, there will be others..Oranjblud (talk) 12:50, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Bob Darvill has come good again with one of the other locomotiives - One of the locos was built by the Motor Rail Co. of Bedford - Motor Rail 4519 built in 1928 and this loco was acquired secondhand from the Manchester Corporation Waterworks around 1958. However, we have no identity for the third loco. This link shows the type of locomotive it was - a 20hp Petrol Locomotive http://www.mrt.org.uk/simplex/

What puzzles me is why a third locomotive was purchased when the line must have been close to the end of its days. Perhaps the other two had failed and the third wasa needed to finish operations/ No luck on my letter.--Davidvaughanwells (talk) 15:19, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

(Link hidden inside a frame - deep link http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/jasrowlands/simplex/20_h.htm)

I found a slightly better map (1:25000) link national library of scotland 2nd link - (the http://maps.nls.uk/ site has even better coverage for Scotland - up to 25" to 1 mile maps )

Annoyingly the crucial part of the track is on the boundary, (and the two halfs don't quite line up).Oranjblud (talk) 17:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)