Talk:Per mille

Name

Definitions

• New Oxford Dictinary: per mille (also per mil )
• American Heritage: per mil VARIANT FORMS: also per mill
• Random House: per mill Also, per mil.

• UK university pages:
  • 989 from ac.uk for "Per mil"
  • 324 from ac.uk for "Per mille".
  • 81 from ac.uk for "Permil".
  • 35 from ac.uk for "Permille".
  • 34 from ac.uk for "Per mill".

• US edu pages:
  • 19,200 for "Per mil" site:edu.
  • 5,180 for "Permil" site:edu.
  • 1,600 for "Per mille" site:edu.
  • 1,420 for "Per mill" site:edu.
  • 76 for "Permille" site:edu.

• Google Scholar:
  • 28,200 for "per mil"
  • 6,890 for "permil"
  • 6,360 for "per mille"
  • 2,970 for "per mill
  • 687 for permille.

• raw Google:
  • 915,000 for "Per mille".
  • 473,000 for "Per mil"
  • 42,600 for "Permil".
  • 28,900 for "Per mill"
  • 14,600 for "Permille".

This article needs to be moved to "per mil" --Espoo (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Move back to per mille. Google hits are a poor way of deciding best usage. For example it is not surprising that "per mil" scores more highly than the others because it picks up e.g. "per mile" and other spurious hits like "parts per mil" which "should not be confused with per mil" as the article says. My dictionary only has "per mille" and "promille" is German. My proposal is that unless more credible evidence can be produced, it should revert to "per mille"; this would also help to avoid confusion with "parts per mil". --Bermicourt (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Take a look at the definitions mille and mil. Although both indicate "1000", mil seems to have specific length and angular definitions, whereas mille is generically one-thousand. +mt 01:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Also agree. It's been a year since this discussion, and no change has been made. As a scientist who uses per mille units for stable isotope analyses everyday, I can tell you that in my opinion, per mille makes far more sense than the current article title (per mil), or the word that most of my colleagues seem to use (permil). It is "mille" as in the French word for "thousand". That's the only thing that has any meaning in this context. "Mil" is something entirely different. (Incidentally, we have another problem in my field with the word "del" being erroneously substituted for the word "delta" in stable isotope delta notation. That's an even bigger etymological disaster...).

So we have a tricky issue here: on the one hand, personal experience (not troublesome Google "statistics") tells me that most scientists spell the word permil or per mil in scientific publications, and word usage (correct or not) deserves our attention. On the other hand, there is a clear etymological error here, and until the vast majority of users spell the word differently (to the point where the original correct spelling would be laughed at), I think an encyclopedia or a dictionary should spell the word correctly. Hence "per mille". 130.15.38.126 (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

No, we follow COMMON ENGLISH usage here... unless there is a strong general consensus that we need to make allowance for something. Here, both are in play: per mil is terrible and terribly misleading and it's not the common usage historically, presently, or generally. — LlywelynII 11:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, yes, per mil had a day in the sun and is on its way out now (ngram). Good riddance.

Decent adherence to convention would have kept it a single word like percent and common sense would have suggested to scientists that phrasing that makes it look like "per mil" is something that can only end badly. You can write "per mil should not be confused with ppm" all you like; people are still going to do it and it's such an obvious problem that it's not their fault for the misunderstanding. I'll fourth the need to return the page back to its more common and more sensible home and get the ball rolling on a RM. — LlywelynII 11:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 08:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

@Reply 27.55.66.224 (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Per mil → Per mille – Restoring the page to its former position per CONSENSUS and COMMON ENGLISH name, as well as best practices. MOS:NUM hasn't weighed in yet but surely leaving the page here contributes to editors writing out "per mil" and confusing our readers.

See above for the numbers crunching. The short version is that "per mil" does enjoy a lead in scholarly contexts where MOS:NUM would advocate just using the symbol and "per mille" is etymologically correct, also in widespread use among scholars, and more common among people in contexts where it should be written out in the first place. One user moved it on his own (GOODFAITH & based on his own numbers), but four editors since have noted the many problems involved with using such an unhelpful form of such an uncommon term. — LlywelynII 12:29, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

As an alternative: → mille sign or per mille sign – This is not necessarily mentioned in the consensus above to return to per mille but the actual content of this page concerns the typographical sign and not the concept itself. The COMMON ENGLISH name of the sign actually is the mille sign (with other names such as the "per mil sign" and "mil sign" not even registering). Google scholar also shows "mille sign" getting ~50 hits to "mil sign"'s ~25. Unicode's official name is also PER MILLE SIGN, not "per mil" as claimed in the present article. — LlywelynII 01:49, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Not seeing any compelling evidence that "Per Mille" is a significantly more commonly used spelling. --DAJF (talk) 03:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Then reread the last paragraph above. — LlywelynII 04:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support – "Per mil" is ambiguous. It is better to use the unambiguous acceptable alternative when possible. RGloucester — ☎ 21:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support: The same reason as above comment, when there is an acceptable alternative such like this, it should be used. KaneZolanski (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pronunciation?

Is it 'per mill' or 'per meal'? Malick78 (talk) 07:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, pronounced like 'per mill'.+mt 17:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Origin of "per mille"

Per mille is not latin, it's italian. Bye.

French, but close. My bad. OED does say it was a native English coinage, probably on the basis of percent. — LlywelynII 12:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Bullets in picture

Is there a way of getting the bullets under Examples out of the picture? I know there's {clearleft}, but that would put the lines under the picture (which would look even worse). --Thrissel (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

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Promille

The lead as it stands reads

The phrase per mille (from Latin per mīlle 'in each thousand') indicates parts per thousand. The associated symbol is ‰, similar to a per cent sign % but with an extra zero in the divisor.

Major dictionaries do not agree on the spelling, giving other options of per mil, per mill, permil, permill, permille, or promille.

The presence of "promille" on this list is dubious at best, because this is en.wikipedia and promille is German or Swedish, not English. There are two citations to support its presence. The first is a Belgian blog, not a dictionary (and it says that it is a term used "in Europe"). The second is the Cambridge German – English Dictionary, which gives promille as a German word (which it translates as "thousanth"). Googling around, maybe I can find it elsewhere?

• as in the Collins German–English dictionary.
• Wait, it is used in PubMed: [Lowering the promille limit? ] – but that it is an article translated from German.
• American English perhaps? Try Merriam Webster ... no (though it does offer pro mille adverb (or adjective) instead).
• Google has the London Metropolitan Police using it Driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs but it must be a redirect because it is not used in the text. (And it is not a dictionary).

Does anyone have a convincing reason why it should be retained? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:00, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

If promille is an incorrect spelling for per mille, and not a valid (loanword) alternative, then Promille (video game) should be moved back to the base title as the only article on Wikipedia with that spelling, and the hatnote removed – don't show incorrect spellings in hatnotes. There are currently two links: (1) in the lead section of Alcohol laws in Germany: Germany has been referred to as a "promille paradise"; (2) Groma (surveying) § Limitations: introducing the angle error calculated by the archeologists to be about 1.5 promille – wbm1058 (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

(1) what I did find though is that the term promille is used in German as a nickname for blood alcohol concentration. So I guess the Alcohol laws in Germany should read has been referred to as a "promille paradise" because it is in exact this sense that the word is being used – and it would need a suitable link target, not thus one!

(2) looks like an obvious spelling error. In Latin, pro mille means "for a thousand" not "in each thousand".

So video game it is! (Unless anyone else has an objection? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Added on 24 September 2023 by @Mathnerd314159:. Maybe make a disambiguation page since links not intended for the video game seem to be a problem. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:50, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

See de:Promille#Alkohol im Straßenverkehr — Google English translation:

Drinking and driving

The term promille refers colloquially to the alcohol content in the respective person's blood. The blood alcohol content is usually given in per mille and can be calculated using the Widmark formula and measured in breath or blood. The unit of measurement is the mass ratio of milligrams of alcohol per gram of blood (mg/g) - see article Blood Alcohol Concentration. With a handy Alcotest device, which is usually used on the street during police checks or when recording accidents and which you blow into, you can determine what concentration of alcohol the person concerned has in their breath. The unit of measurement is the amount of alcohol in milligrams per liter of breath (mg/l). For example, the value 1.0 mg/l breath alcohol concentration corresponds approximately to a blood alcohol concentration of 2.1 mg/g, i.e. 2.1 per mille. The exact alcohol content - if it is suspected to be too high - is then determined at the police station either with a much more sophisticated breath alcohol measuring device or by a doctor through a blood alcohol test (with a small blood sample from the person concerned).

Maybe we should make an English article on the colloquial use. – wbm1058 (talk) 23:06, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

There is Wikipedia:UEIA - "list all frequently used names by which its subject is widely known." Are you arguing that promille is not frequently used? I see many papers on Google Scholar that use it. Or are you arguing that permille != promille (the dictionary defines it identically, thousandth)? I guess as wbm1058 says there is some room to argue that maybe it is not quite equivalent and there should be a separate article, but the list of uses in this article seems to also be the list of uses for promille. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

My specific challenge was to Major dictionaries do not agree on the spelling, which is true for all the words listed except promille. No dictionary (that I found) recognises it as a valid alternative spelling in English; both the citations offered in support of it failed verification. So maybe we should show it somewhere but not in the list of dictionary-supported words. Ideally we should have a citation that is among the "frequently used names by which its subject is widely known" but I won't insist on that.--𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I propose to resolve the problem by taking promille out of the list of dictionary-recognised terms but mention it separately. I have just found this WP:RS citation:HEINZ GAMSJÄGER; JOHN W. LORIMER; PIRKETTA SCHARLIN; DAVID G. SHAW (2008). "GLOSSARY OF TERMS RELATED TO SOLUBILITY". Pure Appl. Chem. 80 (2): 233–276. doi:10.1351/pac200880020233. Page 258 says

permil, ‰

per mille
permille
promille
One part in a thousand parts.

Example: The mole fraction x = 2.8 × 10–3 = 2.8 ‰.

(Would I be correct in reading that as saying that "permil" is the preferred form? Is there a documented convention that )

I will also create a new section called Promille that explains it as shorthand in Germany for blood alcohol expressed as mg/g. "This is not my field" so it will be a first draft that is more than usually open to fellow editors to improve. I doubt that there is really enough material for a standalone article that is not just a cfork of Blood Alcohol Concentration. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Let slip the dogs of war. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Super. Your solution is better than what I would have come up with by myself. I created the redirect :) wbm1058 (talk) 12:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

It sounds a bit like promille should redirect to blood alcohol concentration rather than here? Spitzak (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Or it could become a disambiguation article? Some articles are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them. But there is no current mention of it at BAC. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Permille is in the units table of the BAC article, I guess it could be promille. The source specified it in the text as "per mille" though so that's why I didn't write promille.

I have reorganized the article to summary-style. From what I can tell, the situation is (1) permille/promille are used interchangeably by certain bilingual speakers (Dutch, German, etc.) (2) there are certain common usages of both of these words where the surrounding context makes it clear what the fraction being discussed is (BAC, salinity, etc.). The article reflects this, it has a discussion of the spellings/variants in the beginning, then discusses all of the common use cases. Of course it is a WP:BOLD edit but hopefully nobody hates it. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 20:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I think Spitzak and I are talking about the redirect article, Promille. Spitzak suggests changing its target outright, I suggest a disambig that offers (a) this, the Per mille article (b) the BAC article and (c) the Finnish game. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, there is WP:BROADCONCEPT. I would say the "primary meaning" of promille is that of permille. The BAC is an instance of usage of the term and the Finnish game is in turn a play on the BAC usage. So then per the broad concept guideline, the Promille page should be an article describing permille/promille, and not a disambiguation page. But I have never won these kinds of discussions. :-) Mathnerd314159 (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I would certainly oppose Spitzak's proposal. From the Google Scholar citation above, the word has substantial usage in the scientific sector and we shouldn't be shy of educating readers with the bigger picture. All things considered, IMO we should leave things as they are. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

References