Talk:Piano trio

Piano Sextets?

Is it really worth us mentioning the "piano sextet"? I don't think it's really a recognised form; that is, there's no standard combination of instruments known by that name. The only sextet with a piano that I can think of is by Francis Poulenc (for five wind instruments and piano), but that's never called his "piano sextet", just his "sextet". I can't think of any other examples at all. --Camembert

Well, let's see what the Peters catalog has on offer:

• Mendelssohn Op. 110 is a sextet in D scored by the composer for violin, 2 violas, cello, bass, and piano.
• M. Glinka (never heard that name) wrote a Sextet and a Grand Sextet. The catalog does not specify the exact scoring but both are listed under the "Piano sextet" heading in the catalog

And the ACMPI list reveals these somewhat lesser known works for winds and piano:

• The Francis Poulenc (1899-1963) sextet you mention, flute, oboe, clarinet, horn, bassoon, and piano.
• Gordon Jacob (1895-), scored for the same five winds and piano. A note from an ACMPI member says that it is not so difficult as the Poulenc sextet
• Ludwig Thuille (1861-1907), Op. 6, sextet in Bb, scored for the same five winds and piano; characterized as a "big romantic piece" in the notes

And then the ACMPI has some strange and wonderful combinations that, while no doubt fun to play and hear, defy categorization:

• Ernest Chausson (1855-1899), a "concerto" in D, op. 21, for piano and violin accompanied by 2 additional violins, viola, cello
• Martinu Bohuslav (1890-1959), a ballet called "La Revue de cuisine", scored for violin, cello, clarinet, bassoon, trumpet(!) and piano.
• Then we have a Klezmer-type piece by Prokofiev, Op. 34, for clarinet, 2 violins, viola, cello, and piano

Also a couple of mixed septets including piano.

Many baroque pieces, such as the Brandenburg concertos, could readily be interpreted by a piano and five other instruments, with the piano taking the continuo part. But, they're still cheifly a non-pianocentric form, in contrast to the best-written piano trios where the piano is a peer with the other instruments.

So, I conclude, based on the admittedly limited resources of my personal sheet music library, which fits on two shelves, that Camembert is correct and that there is really no standard "piano sextet" form and that such a combination bears, at most, passing mention.

UninvitedCompany 04:14, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

"M.Glinka" is presumably Mikhail Glinka. I must admit, I've never heard of the Mendelssohn before, but then I've spent most of my life avoiding Mendelssohn (bad experience with a violin sonata as a child), so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. I guess what I really wanted to say was that while there may well be a few pieces written for piano and five other instruments, you probably wouldn't call them any of them a "piano sextet"; you'd more likely call such a piece a "sextet for piano, violin, viola, trumpet, double bassoon and flexatone" or whatever. Anyway, the article seems fair enough as it stands now, and I've tweaked piano sextet a little too. --Camembert

I'm continuing this discussion in the logical place. Physicist 15:29, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Beethoven trios

Good to list the arrangements (esp. that of the 2nd symphony, had a teacher who thought very well of that as an arrangement - not just as a piece *g*) but are they played w/piano trio more often than the piano/vn/cello version of the op. 11 clarinet trio? (Unrelated comment - according to William Newman anyway, it's d or D minor, not d minor...) Schissel 12:39, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Arrangement of repertoire entries

The listing of composers of piano trios now follows alphabetical order according to their surname, in contrast to the previous arrangement which sequenced the composers by their dates of birth. This change has been made to ensure consistency with the alphabetical standard established in other wikipedia listings of classical compositions. Readers of the article will be able to quickly locate a particular piano trio by scanning the alphabetical list of composers without being delayed by straining to remember composer's biographical details and fumbling through a chronological list. While arranging the piano trios by the lifespans of composers (or better still, date of composition) definitely allows the reader to make observations about the historical development of the repertoire, the alphabetical arrangement is generally more convenient for readers to consult and editors to manage. Defrosted 09:27, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That would depend why they're consulting it in the first place. The way it's now arranged looks to me like a library catalog. I think it would make more sense in an article introducing the piano trio to reduce the list drastically and divide it into chronological categories: a few examples of classical piano trios, a few examples of romantic piano trios, and a few examples of modern piano trios. As it stands now, this list makes up something like three-fourths or more of the entire article.TheScotch 09:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I propose to put the current list of piano trios outside the article proper (with a link), and I will do this shortly unless someone can explain here why I shouldn't. TheScotch 07:51, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. TheScotch 08:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Piano trio in jazz music?

I have heard the phrase "piano trio" frequently applied to the piano/bass/drums combo in jazz music. Think Red Garland Trio, Art Tatum Trio, Bud Powell Trio, even more modern groups like Medeski Martin and Wood. I think this merits at least a mention, if not a disambiguation page.

Most of these trios are for piano, bass, and drums, which makes Art Tatum's for piano, bass, and guitar (a combination also used by Nat King Cole and Oscar Peterson) an exception. Anyway, piano, bass, drums in jazz is not properly a piano trio; it's so common that it is known simply as a trio. These trios are almost always named after the leader, who is almost always the pianist, which in itself makes prefixing piano redundant. It's "the Bill Evans Trio", not "the Bill Evans Piano Trio". Piano trio: classical music for piano, violin, and cello. Trio: in classical music any combination of three instruments; in jazz: piano, bass, and drums--with exceptions. TheScotch

I think the title of this page is misleading and should be changed or sections should be added. Though piano trios exist in classical music and the information is correct, piano trios also exist in jazz and in other styles like contemporary music (the Bad Plus), thus I think it would be appropriate to add a section about piano trios within jazz and not limit this article to just piano trios within the classical music spectrum.

If you're going to take a contrary position you need to acknowledge what I've written above and explain how you think it's in error. Since you've failed to do this, I can only repeat that in jazz a group comprising piano, bass, and drums is called a trio, not a piano trio. The term piano trio is a "classical" music term, which means that the title of this article is not at all "misleading". Moreover "classical" music is not something distinct from "contemporary" music. TheScotch 07:59, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

TheScotch, people often call a jazz piano trio a "piano trio." The most common format consists of a piano, a bass and drums. You could also just call it a "trio," but that term is just more ambiguous. I guess the difference is that "piano trio" states one of the instruments is a piano and implies the other instruments are drums/bass, while "trio" could refer to an ensemble of any three instruments. I found this short article about it, if you're interested: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=18995

67.169.176.127 06:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC) jimbo

I've never in my life heard a real jazzer refer to a trio as a "piano trio", and I don't expect ever to. The term trio is not the slightest bit ambiguous to someone in the know, and certainly if trio could not imply piano, as you seem to contend it can't, then piano trio could not possibly imply bass and drums. Your article, by the way, is obviously for non-jazzers, hence the training wheels. It would not be a bad thing for someone to write a separate article called trio (jazz), however. TheScotch 11:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

- Excuse me- I'm a semi-professional jazz musician and have been for my entire adult life. I just searched for "piano trio" on Wikipedia to see who was listed as some of the leading piano trios playing today- by which I meant piano, bass, and drums. It's a common term for a common jazz ensemble. There's really nothing to argue about. It's clearly not related to the classical piano trio, and a search for piano trio should pull up a list in which people can choose "piano trio (classical)" or "piano trio (jazz)". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.135.195.170 (talk) 21:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: "There's really nothing to argue about.":

There's "nothing to argue about"? That translates to mean you dictate to us. In any case, I've added a link to Trio (jazz), which should solve your particular problem.TheScotch 18:22, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

External links

It seems to me that the external links section is becoming an advertising board for all sorts of piano trios. I think most of the links should be removed, but I wanted to hear other opinions first. The same, to a lesser degree, for piano quartet --Leonard Vertighel 10:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Go for it. TheScotch 05:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I did. If someone disagrees, we can discuss here. --Leonard Vertighel 11:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Trio (jazz)

I've made a new article with this name. Just now it's a mere stub. Please add stuff. Thanks. TheScotch 15:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)