Talk:Ralph McTell

Dylan Project

Not really fair to refer to the Dylan Project as a Fairport Convention spin-off, as one of its prime movers is Steve Gibbons, whose only connecion to fairport is knowing the other nstigator, Dave Pegg,frm their work togetherin the Uglys. Half the band have layed with Fairport, the others are from Steve Gibbon's various band line-ups. Being familiar with the work of Steve Gibbons and Fairport, I say the Dylan Project is more Steve Gibbons than Fairport. Gibbons is simply one of the best interpreters of Dylan's work around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worbleswick (talk • contribs) 01:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed and deleted. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 16:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

[Untitled discussion]

The style of the article is a bit strange: everything is broken into single sentences instead of being grouped into paragraphs of two of three sentences. There is no discography (albums/ singles) so it is rather difficult for me to add this information: There is a new Ralph McTell album: "Gates of Eden" (2007) Ogg 19:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

My apologies: I have just spotted it, in the second-to-last paragraph. Ogg 19:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Everything is not broken up into single sentences; many of the paragraphs are multi-sentence. Besides, a paragraph is a unit of thought so single-sentence are legitimate when appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.74.115 (talk) 22:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Streets of London

I think the article is wrong to say Ralph's re-recording of "Streets of London" features only his voice and guitar. According to this feature article on 'Spiral Staircase' Ralph McTell is quoted as saying: Actually, at this time I still did not want the song to appear on Spiral Staircase but Gus pleaded with me to do just one take of it at the very end of the recording sessions. Whilst the jug band, (Henry, Mick and Pete) repaired to the pub around the corner, I reluctantly agreed.

So the voice and guitar version is the one that appears on Spiral Staircase. I believe Ralph re-recorded the song in 1974 with accompaniment, and that is the one released as a single. -- Mickraus 20:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I found a page that confirms my thoughts above: the original version on Spiral Staircase is just voice and guitar, and the re-recoreded version released as a single has a backing band. See the BBC's Sold on Song Top 100, No. 32. -- Mickraus 21:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I noticed there was an edit that said "The song borrows large parts from the Al Stewart song "Samuel, Oh How You've Changed" from his 1967 album Bed-Sitter Images." I have listened to the song in question and agree about the assessment, the similiarities are striking even for the layman. I propose to add "The song borrows heavily from the Al Stewart song "Samuel, Oh How You've Changed" from his 1967 album Bed-Sitter Images." 88.153.36.33 (talk) 20:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Stewart himself dismisses this long-standing claim in Neville Judd's authorized biography, "Al Stewart: The True Life Adventures of a Folk Rock Troubadour" (Helter Skelter, 2006). Judd says that a few months after the release of 'Bedsitter Images', Al brought the similarity to the attention of his manager, who wanted to call in the lawyers for a case of plagiarism. But Al said he'd go around & ask Ralph about it himself. When they met up, Ralph said that he wasn't even aware of Al's song & couldn't possibly have used it as the basis for 'Street Of London'. And there the matter ended. Al is quoted as saying, "I feel that both of those tunes are another earlier pop tune entirely that we must have both grown up subliminally hearing on the radio. I don't think that either of us wrote that song. There's something, it may be an old Brian Hyland song, that's really similar and you know everybody influences everyone else, nothing is original."

In McTell's programme for the Affairs of the Heart Tour in 1989, Stewart is quoted as saying: "... I first met Ralph at the Cousins, I think, it was round about the time that he had his first album out, and like me he'd used strings on it, probably, you know and like me, he wishes he probably hadn't and, we both had a tune that was very very similar, his of course turned into Streets of London and mine I think was called Jenny, Won't You Please Take Me Home. They had the same chords, mine vanished without trace, and his became a huge hit."

So the two songs had similar chord sequences; it happens all the time and is not notable. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

And it's the same chord sequence as used in Pachelbel's canon, written around 1690, and probably countless other compositions since. Bluewave (talk) 22:15, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

A same chord sequence does not make for a same song, it's about the melody and picking style of the guitar in this case. Anyways, Notthesameasyouremail's recounting of events is extremely interesting and worthy of addition to the main article in itself. 62.143.248.71 (talk) 09:59, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Not in the biography, but maybe in the Streets of London song article? Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 13:47, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Dodgy Link

hi, not sure how to correct this myself (so hopefully somebody else more knowledgeable in these matters can sort it out) but if you click on the 'revisited' link in the list of ralph's albums, it takes you to a page concerning a peter gabriel album of the same name Cleverclogs1960 (talk) 20:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Citations and Discography

Hello, I'd like to help resolve the Citation and Discography queries on this article, but I need to know exactly what is required, for example:

Citations - does every individual statement need a source, or will one reference per paragraph do, or even generic references to McTell's published biographies?

Discography - the current list is incomplete and (as noted by Cleverclogs1960 above) includes a number of unhelpful links. I can provide a complete UK discography.

Also, what info is needed for the infobox? I'll be happy to do the edits when I know what's needed.

Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 23:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Not everything needs references – just things that could be challenged, such as chart placings, for example.

As for the infobox, here are the fields that make up the Musical Artist infobox. Not all fields require filling, but obviously, the more, the merrier. Just copy and paste the template text into this article (but don't save the page until the template is complete). - Dudesleeper / Talk 23:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Dudesleeper. Here is the completed Infobox. (Moved to main article 17 May 2008) Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 17:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is McTell's UK discography, corrected and updated. I have omitted the numerous Transatlantic/Castle 'Best Of' compilations because they are limited to songs released in 1968-1970 and are in any case effectively superseded by the recent reissues of Ralph's first three albums. Any comments before I edit the main article?

(Moved to main article 17 May 2008) Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 21:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have completed my updates of the content - I will now work on the citations. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 09:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Citations added. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 02:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Live

Am I right in saying that McTell refuses to sing "Streets of London" live? I know someone who went to a show and he wouldn't do it. Later, the comedy sketch show "Big Train" did a sketch on him where all anyone wanted to hear was "Streets of London" - possibly parodying the situation? Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVSTr7rb1_Y--82.0.207.86 (talk) 08:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Ralph almost invariably DOES sing 'Streets of London' in his live shows. There have been periods in his career when this was not true, but they were short-lived and long ago. The "Big Train" parody is more likely to be highlighting the fact that most people know "Streets of London" but nothing else from Ralph's vast repertoire of self-penned and covered songs. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 14:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

"Doon" Graham

The text of the this article has been shaped by a number of editors over a long period, and I have no desire to alter either its shape or its content. I have added citations for the direct quotations, and intend in due course to check the chronology against McTell's published biographical material.

Meanwhile, an anonymous editor has recently added the following statement to the 'Record Deal' section of the article, which deals with the period 1967 to 1969:

"It was during this period that he also struck up a lifelong friendship with legendary ex-Wings sound engineer Doon Graham."

This might be true - Gordoon "Doon" Graham was certainly McTell's sound engineer between 1976 and 1995 - but:

1. The statement implies that Graham left Wings before 1970. This is improbable, given that Wings was not formed until 1971; and

2. There is no mention of Graham in the Wings article, and I can find no evidence of his 'legendary' status elsewhere in Wikipedia.

I would welcome others' opinions. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 17:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I have moved the reference to Doon Graham to a more appropriate place in the article. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 17:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

External sites

I removed the link to a long-defunct website because its inclusion makes the article inaccurate; and because it is not encyclopedic.

I added a link to the current principal fan website (which, incidentally, is approved by the subject of the article). This change was reverted by a well-meaning user who, one assumes, is not particularly well informed about the subject of the article.

None of the material I have submitted (which, as it happens, is the major part of this article) violates any copyrights; nor does the content of the fan site I have linked to. When I greatly expanded the original stub (username AndyF):

a) I irrevocably released my contribution under the terms of the GFDL;

b) I was certain that none of the content violated copyright; and

c) I had, and have, extensive knowledge of the subject.

So it is irritating when content - such as the link to a defunct websites - is not only added but is reverted when corrected.

Regarding my recent addition that mentions a Ralph McTell concert in Birmingham and cites a press release, I might as easily have cited the advertisements which have appeared in Mojo magazine. This double-header concert is a fact - a quick look at Birmingham Town Hall's website will confirm this. I added the citation because it was available, not because the content needs it - the fact of the Birmingham concert is readily verifiable, it is very unlikely to be challenged, it is not controversial.

Verification and citation are important if Wikipedia is to avoid accusations of inaccuracy. But citation can be taken to ridiculous extremes. IMO, we don't need to give citations for widely-advertised public events (although in this case I had a press release to hand) and we should not unecessarily revert corrections when we have insufficient knowledge.

AndyF, 18 October 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.21.76 (talk) 14:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for holding out on the external link to Ralph's 'official unofficial' fansite - I agree it is appropriate and relevant.

Thanks, too, for your continued interest in keeping this article up-to-date and verifiable. Many other websites include copies of this article and their readers will benefit from your vigilance.

Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 11:17, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Article Rating

I have upped the article rating to GA-Class. Peer review welcomed. What else does it need to become a Featured Article? Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 20:30, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Not having "Ralph" appearing throughout would be a start. Plus more (or some) verifiable references. - Dudesleeper / Talk 22:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

LOL. To quote you, "Not everything needs references – just things that could be challenged, such as chart placings, for example." What else would you like to challenge? Which references can't you verify? As for "Ralph" appearing throughout, I believe the style guide suggests allowing the original editor's style to prevail. Please correct me if I missed something. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 01:24, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, last names should be used, unless, of course, two people share the same name in the article. And I'm not talking about challenging anything, just that listing a bunch of books is unlikely to suffice for GA status. Thanks for the "LOL", though - someone's use of internet slang always fills me with endless confidence... - Dudesleeper / Talk 04:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

KO, we'll stick at B. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 09:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC) ;~((

Biography of Living Persons Sources Tag

I undid the removal of the BLP Sources template based on the article's numerous unsourced statements. Just for example:

• Three lead paragraphs, no citations
• Biography intro, three paragraphs and only one citation
• Teens, Black Music, Busker subsections, each with three paragraphs and only one citation per subsection
• Record Deal subsection, no citations
• Into the 1970s, very long section and one citation
• Similar shortage of sources for all subsequent sections

Having just 15 citations in an article of this length comes up far short of Verifiability and Biography of Living Persons guidelines. I realize that the books used in the cites probably cover all the unsourced material, but page numbers are needed so that one does not have to go through every page to verify what's being said. For examples of articles that adhere to these standards, see Bob Dylan and Neil Young or for non-living figures, Woody Guthrie and Frank Zappa. Allreet (talk) 04:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I checked this out last year and thought I had satisfied the guidelines - see 'Citations and Discography' above. I'll work on your interpretation of the WikiRules. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 09:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added additional citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notthesameasyouremail (talk • contribs) 19:07, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

To add to discography

McTell's Leola Music record label released Affairs of the Heart on Valentine's Day 2010. If the editor who is looking after the discography wants to add it, the catalogue number is TGPCD30 and there is a tracklising here [1] Andy F (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Added as suggested. I have not put catalogue numbers in the discography, though I will do so if folk think it helpful. I am slowly adding individual articles for each release, and these include the catalogue numbers.Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 00:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Links to Albums?

Although many of his albums are mentioned in this article, almost none of them are linked to their respective articles specifically about the album. I was going to change them, but since I'm new here I thought I would make sure that it was not done on purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoopkitty (talk • contribs) 22:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

All albums with Wikilinks are indicated in the Discography section at the bottom of the article. Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 00:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

But it's a good idea to add links in the main text, so go right ahead ;~)) Notthesameasyouremail (talk) 08:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

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