Talk:Rami Bar-Niv

I have done a major edit of this article

I have removed a great deal of text from this article:

• Many of the footnotes are self-published (for example,this,this andthis.

         The above are not self published. They are published by the owners of the respective sites.

• Many of the footnotes are purporting to support statements about Bar-Niv, but in fact make no mention of him. For example,this reference to Ron Shulamit conservatory simply points to the conservatory's website, and does not confirm that Bar-Niv actually studied there.

         The footnote was there to show the existence of the school. I was instructed to stop editing this page 
         before I could enter a citation from the following book, published in September 2010 by the Ron Shulamit     
         Conservatory (P.O. Box 43179, Jerusalem 91431 Israel). The book has 2 attached CDs "Centenial Recordings,
         Notable Graduates" that include recordings by Perlman, Mintz, Bar-Niv, and others. 
         This book is a hard copy one. Book's name: "100, Ron Shulamit Conservatory, For the next hundred years..." 
         Copywriter & Editor: Peggy Brill. Narrative Author: Shmuel Lerman. Narrative Translation: Shira Barzily. 
         Producer Adi Yekutieli. 
         Printed by Alpha Sigma Printing House LTD.
         The book has no page numbers and everything appears twice, once in Hebrew and once in English. 
         The double page titled "Notable Graduates" includes photos and biographies of Perlman, Mintz, Bar-Niv, and
         others. The following is what it says about Bar-Niv:
         "Rami Bar-Niv, Pianist
         Born in Tel Aviv in 1945, Rami Bar-Niv began his studies at the Ron Conservatory, later graduating from the
         Rubin Academy of Music with honors. Recipient of many prizes and scholarships, he won the America-Israel
         Cultural Foundation Competition and was awarded a scholarship to further his studies in the United states. He
         graduated with honors from Mannes College of Music in New York under renowned teacher Nadia Reisenberg. He won
         numerous competitions and embarked upon a successful concert career, performing regularly throughout the  world.
         He is often sent by the Foreign Ministry as an ambassador of goodwill in concerts overseas. To date, he is the
         only Israeli artist to perform in Egypt following the signing of the peace treaty."

• Bar-Niv's book is self-published, as are many of his compositions. When his book is accepted by a recognized publisher, we can add it back in.

         What is wrong with self-published? That a "notable" publication is not robbing you of your money...? 
         Self-publications are acceptable anywhere nowadays. As a matter of fact 2 (raving) reviews of my self-published
         book are to appear in May 2012 in 2 very respectable and "notable" publications.

• I removed a lot of fluff. The fact that his father is a comptroller for the Ministry of Defense seems a bit over the top.

         If Personal life is "fluff" then it should be removed from all other Wiki pages. If Personal life is an
         important section of a page, it should be here just like anywhere else.

Just an additional note: this article has been edited by three different accounts, all of whom have edited only this article or other articles relating to Rami Bar-Niv. It is a reasonable suspicion that these accounts are sockpuppets for Bar-Niv himself. I suggest that these accounts establish themselves as bona fide editors by devoting time to improving other articles, before they take it upon themselves to make additional edits to this article.

         This is more than a suspicion: you are here to destroy rather than to build.
         Regards,
         barniv (Rami Bar-Niv) Barniv (talk) 12:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC) 

regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 05:52, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

• Here is what it says at classicalmatters.com:

"The presentation of your work on Classical Matters is free of charge and includes a personal page with your biographical sketch, a photo page, videos, and , if available, tracks of your music in mp3 format. You will also have an e-mail account in your name. If you are interested in joining Classical Matters, please check out the Contact Page for more details."

Or, in other words, send us your bio and picture and we will publish it. That is what I meant by self-published.

         You are now changing what you said. You did not say "self-published" about "Classical Matters", you said "paid
         sites", which it isn't. You said "self-published" about my book, and that does not mean that it isn't a major
         book in this field. The encyclopedia reader should not have this important factual information withheld.

• If your book is indeed reviewed in a reliable publication, please note it on this page, and I will gladly add the book back to the article.

         Will do, though I see many other statements on Wiki pages which are either not at all supported, or are excused
         with "citation needed" until they come up with such. Why is it OK there and not here?

• There is no need for a footnote to prove the existence of Ron Shulamit conservatory, nor of the Rubin Academy. On the other hand, where you studied piano when you were in high school is not particularly important, unless you studied with someone famous (Rubinstein, say).

         You are conveniently changing your tune now: first you complained that it did not say anywhere that I actually
         did study at this conservatory; now, that I have the proper proof, you are using a new excuse.
         How about if I performed a recital for Lenny Bernstein when I was in high school?

• You have contended elsewhere that I have introduced inaccuracies into the article. I have tried to adhere to what was said in the original version, but if I have erred, feel free to correct me. I am talking about errors of fact, not deletions.

         Adhere to what was written in the last version you destroyed.

• An investigation has confirmed that the other two editors of this article are not sockpuppets of Barniv, and for promulgating this suspicion I apologize. Nonetheless, I repeat my suggestion that these editors, as well as yourself, devote your efforts to improving other articles rather than shvitzing over this one.

         You apologize for the investigation, but you continue your bullying in the next message.
         Barniv (talk) 20:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC) 

--Ravpapa (talk) 18:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Promotional use of Wikipedia

Several editors - including one anonymous editor - are trying to introduce blatantly promotional material into this article. The original creator of the article, Joseph10741seems to think he is the owner of the article, and all edits must be approved by him. However, that is not the way we work at Wikipedia; see Wikipedia:Ownership of articles.

Wikipedia is not here as a platform to promote your career. If you do not refrain from adding inappropriate material to this article, I will ask that it be locked, so you will no longer be able to edit it.

Regards,

--Ravpapa (talk) 07:40, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Reply to ravpapa I suggest that you stop you bullying and your threats. TY Barniv (talk) 21:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I confess my last post here was negative. On a more positive note, here are some things you might want to suggest to Joseph or Magazine to add to the article:

• If you have played with a major symphony orchestra (New York Phil, Los Angeles Phil, Berlin, Israel Phil - not the Campus Orchestra), that would certainly be an appropriate thing to add.

• If you played a debut at a major hall (Carnegie or Lincoln Center in New York, Albert Hall in London, etc.) that is important and should be included.

• If you have ever performed with a leading chamber ensemble, or with a leading chamber music player; for example, the Alban Berg quartet, or Yo Yo Mah.

• It is mere hype to refer to yourself as a "virtuoso pianist." If, however, a reviewer has referred to you that way, it would certainly be acceptable to quote that, as you have quoted the JP review.

• Calling yourself a "master teacher" is also pure hype. However, you could certainly mention if you have had any students who have become famous in their own right- even if their fame is only local; for example, Ohad Ben-Ari or Alon Goldstein. Was anyone like that your student?

I hope this is helpful and gives you some good ideas for improving the article. I also hope you see the difference between these types of additions, and a mention that your son is a trumpet player and that your father is a comptroller.

Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 08:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

And a couple of other things:

• if you serve on the faculty of some institution of higher learning, even as adjunct faculty, you should include it in the article.

• If you have published articles in professional journals or trade magazines (like "Piano") you should add it.

Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 21:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

More reply to ravpapa So, now it's OK with you that "Joseph or Magazine" will add to the article? TY for the permission. I've played with many orchestras in Europe, NZ, South Africa, South and Central America, USA, and Israel. I played with all the Israeli orchestras. With the Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra (hardly the Campus Orchestra) alone, I played (and recorded) some 20 times. My debut was at the Tel Aviv Museum + I played a special recital for Leonard Bernstein. I played all the halls in NYC, though no official debut. A more major concert was in NYC's Town Hall in 1968 or so. Chamber music I did with Shlomo Mintz (is that leading enough...?), the Van Leer Chamber Music Players of Jerusalem, and with the first chairs of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. I did not refer to myself as a "virtuoso pianist." Reviewers referred to me as a "virtuoso pianist", "celebrated pianist", "Gran Pianista", "Maestro", Celebrado Pianista", "Virtuosismo", etc. Some of the citations that are/were in the article pointed to newspapers with these quotes. You wrote: If, however, a reviewer has referred to you that way, it would certainly be acceptable to quote that, as you have quoted the JP review. First, I did not quote anything, the writers of the article did, I just helped put things in order. Secondly what good is it that they did quote the JP review if you deleted it? Perhaps you care now to reinstate it. What would you call someone who gives a "master class"? Not a "master teacher"? I've given countless master classes in music schools and universities around the world, I got plenty of citations for that too and I'm pretty sure that if I look hard enough I'll find newspaper clippings that refer to me as "master teacher". All you needed to do is ask for it. As a matter of fact, one of my students is a piano professor at an American university. Mentioning my son and my father and other related family members belongs to the section "Personal life". I don't see why other articles in Wikipedia have this section and it's OK, but not the one about me. I don't see why it is wrong to have it in the article, while other articles say that someone's parents came from Romania, or Russia, or similar details. Never served on the faculty of some institution of higher learning, only been a guest lecturer, presenter, and master teacher (one who gives master classes). Re published articles, I published a few thousands on Internet Lists, Groups, and Forums, but here is one you may like to add to this article: I wrote a 4 page article (pages 46-49) about George Gershwin in the then prestigious Israeli music magazine "MUSICA, Music and People" issue #20, December 1988.

Altogether I can't understand how the Rami Bar-Niv Wiki article got approved by one very experienced editor and then disapproved by you. RB Barniv (talk) 15:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

All this is great stuff. "All the Israeli orchestras" includes, I presume, the Israel Philharmonic. When (what year) did you play with them and what did you play and who was the conductor? Is there a review? How many times did you play with them?

I looked over the current version and the original version before my rewrite. The quote from the Jerusalem Post is still in the article, and I did not find any other quotes from reviews. So if you can find the citations for "virtuoso pianist," "celebrated pianist", "Gran Pianista", "Maestro", Celebrado Pianista", "Virtuosismo", etc., we can add those. However, you need the citations.

When did you play with Mintz? What did you play? Any other big names?

As for your wonder over why one editor approved your article while I rewrote it: Wikipedia is not a hegemony. There are different opinions. That is why I suggested that your post a Request for Comment - to see what other editors would say. I believe that other experienced editors - including Bmusician -would agree that the current version is far better than the original. But I have not consulted them and cannot speak for them. So I still urge you to post an RFC if you think others can further improve the article.

Finally, as one who has obvious expertise about Gershwin, I urge you to read the articles about Gershwin and his works, and make improvements.

Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

    Played once with the IPO Mozart k488 in 1974, Paul Paray conducting, no review, just PP's note to me on his card with 
    his signature saying: "a Rami Bar-Niv, autentique musicien, dont j'admir le grand talent Paul Paray"

    This JP quote appeared as a note at the bottom of the article and you took it out: The music critic Yohanan Boehm, in 
    his Jerusalem Post Magazine article of Friday, July 23, 1982, said: "Rami Bar-Niv deserves to be known as a roving 
    ambassador for Israel." and "He was the first Israeli artist to appear on a concert stage in Cairo (at the end of
    May)."

    Will find the citations for "virtuoso pianist", "celebrated pianist", "Gran Pianista", "Maestro", Celebrado
    Pianista", "Virtuosismo", etc. As a matter of fact some of the current citations already say that, like the current 
    #7: "El Virtuoso Pianista Israelita Rami Bar-Niv...". El Diario De Hoy (San Salvador). 13 April 1993. 

    Played with Mintz for a number of years from 1972, all over Israel including recitals at the Tel Aviv museum. We 
    played all violin and piano repertoire. RBBarniv (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Content discussion (moved from notability discussion)

"Bar-Niv is a graduate of the Rubin Academy of Music in Jerusalem"

This is a mistake. I am a graduate of the Rubin Academy of Music at the Tel Aviv University (nowadays known as the Buchman-Mehta school of Music). RB Barniv (talk) 10:50, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

         Is there a reason why Karol Klein is not underlined in a clickable blue to link to the article about him in 
         Polish Wikipediahttp://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Klein  ? RBBarniv (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

         "Bar-Niv has composed a number of songs and short pieces published by the Israel Music Institute.[11]"
         This citation represents such a limited selection of RB's work that it actually totally misrepresents RB as a 
         composer. The written sentence doesn't do justice either. Try the following for a citation:
         <http://www.acum.org.il/מידע/רשימת-חברי-אקום?link=http%3A%2F%2F192.114.183.58%2FAcumSiteServices%2Fservlet%2FCServletSearchAcumDB%3FfldCrtCae%3D702437%26fldOutLng%3D1%26fldAcmAut%3D1&js=acum-members>
         and try going through the 79 results of the search for RB compositions. If you do, you'll find out that, even 
         though RB has written some songs, he is primarily under classical music composers, and wrote orchestral pieces, 
         piano pieces, music for various ensembles, including a song cycle for soprano and piano or orchestra.
         TY, RB Barniv (talk) 11:28, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Bar-Niv, can you point me to published works? I don't mean self-published. I, too, have composed many works, but none have been published, and therefore I do not call myself a composer. The works listed by IMI are the only published works that I found. Are any of these others published, and if so by whom?--Ravpapa (talk) 22:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa, Whether you call yourself a composer or not is irrelevant here. I also don't know what you call self-published, is Chick Korea's own record company a self-published one? Come to think of it, Wikipedia is self-published too. Many of my compositions and CDs and videos (and my recent fingering book) are published by AndreA records. I am the owner of AndreA records. My published music sells all over the world. I am a (full member) member of ACUM since 1973http://www.acum.org.il/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%93%D7%A2/%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99-%D7%90%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9D?link=http%3A%2F%2F192.114.183.58%2FAcumSiteServices%2Fservlet%2FservletASGetMemberProfile%3FfldZkyNbr%3D06024761&js=acum-members ACUM does not accept members if they are not authors/composers. You should know that, if you are so well versed in the Israeli music scene. A composition which is not published/performed does not make it to be in the type of list that I pointed you to, it is registered as unpublished and does not show on the public part of the ACUM site, but only in the private composer's login. Altogether ACUM and its published information is not the notorious "self-published", it is considered all over the world as a most reliable source. If they accept you as a composer, you are a composer, and if they accept your compositions as such, it means they are such. TY RB Barniv (talk) 10:37, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

P.S. My piano fingering book received a grant from ACUM towards its actual printed publication. RBBarniv(talk) 18:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Barniv,

If your music is published, you should be able to tell us who the publisher is. You needn't cite all of them, a few will suffice.

--Ravpapa (talk) 21:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa, My music was Published as scores by 4 different publishers: "Israel Music Institute" <http://www.imi.org.il/Composer.aspx?id=53ac9f97-03a4-435b-a420-2b8878ca3af0>, "Israel Music Publications" <http://www.music44.com/X/product/510-04390-C>, "Or-Tav" http://www.ortav.com/sunshop/index.php?l=search_list&s[title]=Y&s[short_desc]=Y&s[full_desc]=Y&s[sku]=Y&s[match]=all&s[cid]=0&s[search]=rami+bar-niv and "AndreA". All my compositions are listed in the ACUM site: <http://www.acum.org.il/מידע/רשימת-חברי-אקום?link=http%3A%2F%2F192.114.183.58%2FAcumSiteServices%2Fservlet%2FCServletSearchAcumDB%3FfldCrtCae%3D702437%26fldOutLng%3D1%26fldAcmAut%3D1%26fldPagNum%3D4&js=acum-members> ACUM is different than ASCAP. Anyone can send money in and register a work with ASCAP. You can't do that with ACUM, you have to be accepted as a member, as a composer/author! My music is also published in the form of public performances; e.g., one of my orchestral pieces was premiered in Milwaukee, USA in 2010 (they also premiered in May 2011 my "Blue-Rag" for brass quintet): <http://www.concordorchestra.org/the-cco-in-action.html> TY, RB, Barniv (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Having difficulties with inserting the site for "Or-Tav", please make sure you take the complete unbroken link: http://www.ortav.com/sunshop/index.php?l=search_list&s[title]=Y&s[short_desc]=Y&s[full_desc]=Y&s[sku]=Y&s[match]=all&s[cid]=0&s[search]=rami+bar-niv

   Barniv (talk) 12:08, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I have added Or-Tav and Israel Music Publishers to the article. The Concord Orchestra is an amateur orchestra - having your work performed by an amateur orchestra is not enough of a reference to merit mention in the article. ACUM is not a publisher, it is an organization to protect copyrights of musical works, and a listing in itself is not proof of noteworthiness. --Ravpapa (talk) 03:18, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa, The Or-Tav link is truncated and does not lead to complete information. My arrangements are not just of Hassidic songs, there are 3 different books each for a different sub-type of music, the other 2 are "Israeli songs", and "Jewish holiday songs". I suppose, if mentioning all 3 sub-types is too much, than "Israeli songs" would be more appropriately covering the other 2 sub-types. I have 3 newspaper clippings mentioning the performance of my own composition "Toccata for orchestra" by the (professional orchestra) ORQUESTA SINFONICA DE EL SALVADOR in April 1993, in the TEATRO NACIONAL in the city of SAN SALVADOR in EL SALVADOR: 1) EL DIARIO DE HOY, April 1, 1993, pages 14 and 38. 2) LA PRESNA GRAFICA, April 2, 1993, page 63. The concert was attended by the President of El Salvador, his family, and the vice president. A photo of that is already uploaded to Wikimedia, but you chose to take it out of this article page. Would you mind adding the word "orchestral pieces" to the sentence about my compositions? TY, RB Barniv (talk) 15:52, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

RfC:Notability and Sources

This article was primarily composed by associates of the subject and has now been reduced by removing promotional languages, etc. (See this pageand the various editor's talk pages). Are Notability requirements satisfied? Sources mentioning Bar-Niv are easy to find; are there sources *about* Bar-Niv? Regards, Ariconte(talk) 22:18, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The Rfc did not bring much attention to the article. One week is enough. Regards, Ariconte (talk) 20:00, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

As the one who cut this article down to size, I must say that I believe that Bar-Niv does meet our notability standards. In the heyday of his career, in the 1970s and 80s, he was considered one of Israel's best; these days he is eclipsed by a crop of young and very brilliant pianists. I admit that, as originally written, there was nothing to really establish his notability, but now that I have been working with him, he is coming up with the information we need: performances with the Israel Philharmonic and other leading orchestras, a series with violinist Shlomo Mintz, and more. I believe he will come up with more shortly.

This should be an object lesson to us all: when the article was all hype and no substance, a reader was left wondering "who is this guy?" When written modestly and factually, you can begin to see that there's something to him, after all.--Ravpapa (talk) 01:16, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I should add that, while the sources he cited in the original were mostly copies of his press bio, there are independent sources in Hebrew. I will add some of these to the article. Regards,--Ravpapa (talk) 01:21, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that Bar-Niv is a notable pianist, as he meets several of the criteria at WP:MUSICBIO --Bmusician 11:38, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

• I received one of the random RfC notices, and I think there is a much better place for this discussion: WP:AFD. AfD is one of the few Wikipedia processes that can actually produce a result one way or another. DGG ( talk ) 14:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
  • ...but no-one wants the article deleted - AfD is wheredeletion is discussed, it's really not the place where trivial notability issues are discussed. Bmusician 15:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC)