Talk:Ruhrpolen

umbrella term that includes other ethnicities than "proper" Poles

I keep editing entries that deny the heterogeneity of the term and the migration movement of the Ruhrpolen. Alongside those "proper" ethnic and national Poles, Masurians, Silesians and other ethnicities moved to the Ruhrarea. Even back in the early 20th century, people lumped those ethniciites into one term: Ruhrpolen. That is why it is indeed an umbrella term that includes Masurians etc. The provided links state the participation of those not-proper-Polish-ethnicities in the migration wave. Kalifat (talk) 00:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

In the links you put in is no word about an umbrella term. In not one source stands that with the term "Ruhrpolen" are more ethnicities than just Poles.--84.142.80.143 (talk) 14:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you really think i need a link that explicitly states that the term is an umbrella term?. nobody talks about the ruhrmasuren or something similar. they belong to this category. if textbooks talk about the migration wave of the ruhrpolen, they don't exclude masurians from that wave. they mention them as part of this wave. same goes for "oberschlesier". what else do you want? Kalifat (talk) 16:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Why you need a link? Because nowhere you can read that under the term Ruhrpolen are other ethnic groups meaning than just Poles! Thats why. And you will not find any source for your thesis, because it's not true that it is an umbrella term. Its a term just for Poles.--85.176.80.5 (talk) 17:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

oh come on. "Polnische Bergarbeiter im Ruhrgebiet: 1870–1945", Göttingen 1978 by Kleßmann mentions them as part of the Ruhrpolen migration, Prof. Dr. Dittmar Dahlmann & Prof. Dr. Albert Kotowski from the "Seminar für Osteuropäische Geschichte der Universität Bonn" mention them as part of the movement in a conference named "Polen im Ruhrgebiet 1870 - 1945". Andreas Kossert focuses on the Polish-speaking Masurians in „Kuzorra, Szepan und Kalwatzki: Polnischsprachige Masuren im Ruhrgebiet“, Warsaw 2003 at the same conference. The other ethnicities are part of this phenomenon! I provided you enough links and sources. It is now up to you to show me that they Masurians etc are a separated and isolated migration wave/phenomenom from the Ruhrpolen. All the links connect the Masurians to the Poles, show how they migrated at the same time from nearly the same places to the same destination like the Poles. When you talk about Ruhrpolen in an academical context you don't exclude Masurians from the term, but you distinguish them from the other ethnicities because of their differing cultural practices and history.

Please provide sources where the Masurians are explicitly excluded from the Ruhrpolen movement and term. If you dont and keep reverting, i have to assume that you do so because of bad will and making trouble just for the sake of it. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalifat (talk • contribs) 18:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

And now http://www.migrationsroute.nrw.de/erinnerungsort.php?erinnerungsort=Bochum explicitly states that Ruhrpolen is an umbrella term. ok?

To illustrate that the different ethnicities were lumped together under the term Ruhrpolen: http://www.ghs-mh.de/migration/projects/timeline/tl_ge_2.htm Kalifat (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

another source that says it is an umbrella term: "Nationales denken im Katholizismus der Weimarer Republik", Reinhard Richter, Berlin-Hamburg-Münster, 2000, page 319. Kalifat (talk) 18:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay. This sources are a little bit better. In some days I look the last source.--84.142.120.226 (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

so you keep editing it, after reading the book? you said in your edit reason that there are no sources, but i already provided one of which you said you will read it. if you did so, you lack reading comprehension. you are deliberately trolling this page. because you are either lazy or a troll, i will give you the exact quote from the book: "Im Ruhrgebiet siedeln sich katholische 'Polen' an, als Sammelbegriff auch für polnischsprechende Oberschlesier und Westpreußen, sowie für Kaschuben und Masuren benutzt, und können anfangs ihre mitgebrachten Traditionen sowie ihre Sprache wegen der Verbote nicht ausüben". Please stop your reverts or i will report this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalifat (talk • contribs) 06:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Not the right place

Seriously, [1] - this article just isn't the place to get in a fight over how the Masurians saw themselves. The individuals mentioned in the text are widely described as Ruhrpolen. Their ancestors might have been from Masuria. Ok, all that's fine. But then there's no need to put in this Catholic vs. Protestant, Prussian vs. Pole stuff which entails the usual territory and individual marking.

 Volunteer Marek  11:25, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The "Ruhrpolen" were not at all a homogeneous group and had different identities and cultural /religious backgrounds - that should be mentioned. If the new source describes it like that, there's simply no need to remove this information and call it "OR". HerkusMonte (talk) 11:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC) P.S.: I highly doubt anybody would have described Hitler's chauffeur as Polish.

I agree that the Ruhrpolen were heterogenous - but there's a way of saying that without getting into this whole "will the real Masurians please stand up" thing. And as far as Kempka goes, I also agree - while the two footballers are widely described as "Ruhrpolen" I haven't seen a source for that for Kempka.  Volunteer Marek  12:36, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

The article might be expanded, but just because it lacks information you shouldn't remove info you don't like. (Kempka parents were Masurians, AFAIK) HerkusMonte (talk) 12:52, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with saying somebody was Masurian. I do have a problem with someone putting in sketchy and mostly irrelevant text about what the Masurians (apparently all, every single one of them) thought of themselves. Volunteer Marek  13:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

This claim is obviously false as thousands of Masurs voted for Poland in plebiscite and there were numerous pro-Polish Masur activists.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:22, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

"Obviously"? - Well, obviously 99,32 % of the voters in Masuria proper voted in favour of Germany/East Prussia and obviously Polish officials tried to hinder the participation of Ruhrpolen in the East Prussian plebiscite (allegedly the German success was a result of their right to vote). But that's not important at all, wikipedia is not about the WP:Truth. There's a source and we use it, simple and easy. HerkusMonte (talk) 07:18, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with HerkusMonte. A fact remains a fact, no matter if we like it or not. Let's get over of our national romantic myths and fantasies. Estlandia (dialogue) 08:54, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with "national romantic myths and fantasies", German, Polish or Estonian. It's just this particular article is not the place to fight over who the Masurians really were/are or how they regard(ed) themselves. It's enough to note - if the source is correct - that the two footballers parents were from Masuria. And as the article already states, Ruhrpolen encompassed Masurians as well as more "traditional" Poles. Volunteer Marek  17:08, 22 October 2011 (UTC)