Talk:Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers

Untitled

I think this is a mistake: In 1903, the Societas Rosicruciana became the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. - the Golden Dawn was founded around 1880. But perhaps there is a connection between GD and SRIA, are there any sources to confirm this? --Asathoor 09:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Er no. The Golden Dawn was founded inbetween 1886 and 1887. All of the founding members of the Golden Dawn (save the possibility of a fourth), were members of the SRIA. I've been working on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article, and havent gotten over here to give citations. Zos 14:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

But yeah. I dont think the SRIA ever became the GD, or any of their offshoot. I removed the statement, as its misleading and didnt have a citations anyway. Zos 14:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To the best of my (inexpert) knowledge, the SRIA was an entirely separate body, continued to exist during the HOGD years, and still exists. As a side-order of Freemasonry duly chartered by the Grand Lodge of England, its membership was not open to women. It was chiefly in order to admit female members on an equal basis with men that the HOGD was separately founded, and an alleged charter from a continental order fabricated to authorize this. Caliban93 (talk) 04:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

"Jones Through the Looking Glass" case

Nothing is written in this article about the court-case between Crowley and Mathers regarding the latter's publication of GD rituals. I thought this would have been more immportant than Mathers' playing chess...since this had been cited often in occult histories of the GD and its development to Crowley's AA, and of the personality developments between the two, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.200.44.82 (talk) 05:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Freemasonry

The article has him resigning in 1882, which isn't in the reference. I have him in the minutes of Quatuor Coronati visiting five years later, as a member of Hengist lodge. Does anyone have another source for his resignation? Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

An Additional Reference

Sword of Wisdom, SBN:399-11534-8, by Ithell Colquhoun is a biography of Mathers. It contains not only Mathers' material, but discusses the events and people that influenced Mathers and were influenced by him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:8821:0:D12E:1B35:7B0:933D (talk) 05:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

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POV Dispute

Over half the article is dedicated to invective, the backbone of which cites the non-scholarly works of people known to have quarreled with Mathers.

Tangential Opinions

The below paragraph following a purported criticism AE Waite levelled against MacGregor Mathers seems tangential. MacGregor Mathers was also a Victorian occultist, so wouldn't he have had similar views to Waite? I'm not sure this provides any clarification when it highlights a unifying factor between the two, not a difference or reason for disagreement.

• "A. E. Waite, as a critic, however, wrote from the position of a Victorian occultist. A position, possibly, entailing (according to Wouter J. Hanegraaff's definition) that: "the magical pursuits of occultist organizations should be rejected in favor of an idiosyncratic form of Christian mysticism.""

The extended quote/reference to Crowley regarding MacGregor Mathers' death is also of questionable relevance. It is more a quote on his views of the state of the Golden Dawn than any type of requiem and goes off on his opinion of Waite more than it does MacGregor Mathers, the decedent in this circumstance. Perhaps some thought should be put into the relevance of these two men's features in these sections. AnandaBliss (talk) 20:35, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the first. What Crowley thought is definitely relevant, though it could be summarized and the quote could be included in the citation. Skyerise (talk) 21:04, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi Skyerise, that move makes sense to me, thanks! And sorry about the creepily quick reply, I was browsing my Watchlist & the newest edit popped up. AnandaBliss (talk) 21:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

That's how it works sometimes... other times weeks between edits... Skyerise (talk) 21:21, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and put the quote into a footnote. I'll leave it to you to summarize it better in the article. Skyerise (talk) 21:28, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

References

"Scathing critique" by Waite.

I read the paragraph cited as such. It wasn't. I removed the para as otherwise this is trivia with no reason to mention. Skyerise (talk) 12:11, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Carlism

Our article on Aleister Crowley in the section on Possible links to intelligence, asserts with citation that Mathers was known to be a Carlist, yet there is nothing on that here. Seems like it would be an interesting addition here, where we could go into more detail about that. Skyerise (talk) 16:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)