Talk:Shina (word)

I applaud this page. It is impartial, objective, and enlightening. The amount of uninformed prejudice towards the term found in China has to be experienced to be believed, and this page forms a useful antidote.

Bathrobe 29 Dec 2005

The amount of Japanese misunderstanding surrounding the term is also appalling. An analogy would be the entire North American white population being unaware that "nigger", "Jap", or "Chinaman" are derogatory. -- ran (talk) 02:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Inappropriate analogy. 'Nigger', 'Jap', etc. are known to be derogatory and are deliberately used that way by white people. That is why people take offence at them. It is hard to find a term that is analogous to 'Shina' in English. Perhaps 'Scotch', which people use quite innocently but is objected to by the Scots themselves has some distant similarities. Of course, the Scots use it themselves (with regard to whisky), but that's OK!

The Chinese are within their rights to object to 'Shina' if they find it offensive, but they are not within their rights to impute a derogatory or offensive motive to the Japanese if it is not meant that way. The Chinese have no case historically for claiming that 'Shina' is 'inherently derogatory' and to do so is a distortion of the facts.

Bathrobe 31 December 2005

There are likely many people in North America ignorant enough to believe that "Chinaman" and "Jap" are harmless. These people are ignorant, but that doesn't make these terms any less derogatory, and that doesn't make it okay for those people to hang on to those terms. -- ran (talk) 20:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

There is one aspect of the use of the word 'Shina' that is not strongly brought out in the article, and that is that 'Shina' tended to be used by the Japanese in preference to 'Chugoku' 中国 - central country - as a way of resisting a Sinocentric view of the world. By using the Western term 'Shina/China', the Japanese could opt out of treating China as the centre of the world. The Chinese naturally would not be pleased with this refusal to use the name they chose for their own country. Given that Japan uses kanji/hanzi, it could reasonably be expected to use 中国. The refusal to submit to a Sinocentric view also underlay much pre-war Japanese nationalism and the Japanese willingness to invade their erstwhile mentor. So in a roundabout sense, Shina is perhaps an affront to the Chinese, although not in the exaggerated sense that the Chinese make out. Perhaps this is the real reason for Chinese fury?

Bathrobe 3 January 2006

Then why is it that no one except for insane ultranationalists reject the English term "China", with the same etymology as Shina, and equally devoid of Sinocentric connotations? Etymology has nothing to do with this. Shina is offensive because of historical context. -- ran (talk) 20:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, God, how retarded can Chinese people get? Please give them an IQ-boosting pill... I doubt there is another country on the face of this planet with so many delusional people.

The terms "Chuugoku" (中国) and "Chuuka" (中華) are inherently Sinocentric (i.e., racist/biased/unbalanced) terms and thus are certainly not preferable to the neutral term "Shina" (シナ) in a world that tries to emphasize human rights and equality. Chinese people who try to force others to call their country "中国" or "中華" are infinitely worse than anyone who calls their country "China," "Shina," "Cina," "Kina," or any other variation of that old and well-established name.

And I suppose "Nihon" (日本) is better than "Chuuka" (中華)? By your logic, if a name that means "Central Flowering" is racist and biased, then how would a name that means "the root of the Sun" be any better?

(The point here being, of course, that neither 日本 nor 中華 is racist or biased.)

I've already said it several times. Shina is offensive because of historical context, just as Jap is offensive because of historical context, although etymologically it is simply a shortening of the term "Japanese". Feel free to call China チャイナ even, if you insist. But 支那 is as offensive as "Jap", not because of etymology, but because of historical context.

-- ran (talk) 06:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The writer above is quite biased (see many of his other contributions) - saying "historical context" as the reason for asserting that 支那 is offensive, virtually without any justification. I do not believe equating "JAP" and "支那" as the previous writer tried. The reason being the Japanese people never once accepted the word "JAP", but the chinese before the war did accept the word 支那 in many government protocols, as well as the many examples in the existing wikipedia page. Whether the word 支那 is offensive or not requires scholars from both sides (Japanese and Chinese) to agree. Apparently, there is still no universal agreement that 支那 is inherently offensive. To me, it is just a matter of what one country prefers to be called, and given the Japanese language also uses Chinese characters, name-calling issues would arise. Had the Japanese called China as シナ instead of 支那, then I very much doubt this "name calling" issue would arise.

The argument is absurd. The word nigger surely had a neutral tone back in the days of Washington, but now it is a tabooed word in America because of its connotation. Now Shina, although used by Chinese in the early days, became an offensive word because the way Japanese used it to insult Chinese. Shinajin Shinajin(Shina man) they would call Chinese during the Sino-Japanese War. Chinese remembered this insult and hated Shina more than ever. You can recount whatever history the word Shina has, but the fact is NOW Shina is offensive to the Chinese people and should be avoided. -Ksc

And my good writer above, as for your opinion that Shina is not considered deregatory word in China, try to meet any Chinese and use the word Shina. I bet they'll dislike you instantly. (Not to mention punch your face) Now if that doesn't make the word "deregatory," I don't know what else can.

I have read the whole discussion and it was fine until the last 2 points. The writer above needs to read the discussion from the top, he is taking us back to step one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinsoek (talk • contribs) 07:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I hold to my original point. It's fine to say that the Chinese find Shina offensive. The problem is that many Chinese, in their sensitivity to this term, try to make out that it is inherently "racist" (e.g., by pointing out that the character 支 implies an inferior view of China, which is patent nonsense). They also overlook the fact that 支那 is still occasionally used in China and Japan without racist or derogatory implications. These facts are mentioned in the article, as is the fact that the term Shina has largely fallen out of use because of Chinese objections to its use. That is fine, and is also why it is a good article.

I've lived in both China and Japan, and I know the differing perceptions of the two. The article is good precisely because it strikes a balance between the two perceptions. Just because you're sensitive to the term doesn't mean that you have to run a crusade to falsify or alter its history or usage.

Bathrobe (talk) 04:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

As a Japanese who have never lived in China, I do not know how the word "shina" is perceived in China. But I am rather skeptical if "most Chinese people" consider the word "racist" as stated in the article. I know that the term, whatever its origin, has acquired derogatory meaning, and I also know that there are people in Japan who use the term precisely for that reason. However, "racist" is a highly loaded term in the English language, and carries a lot of connotations that are specific to the experiences of societies such as the US. The equivalent Japanese terms such as 人種主義, 人種差別 or 种族主义 in Chinese are not used as often as the word racism is in English. Prejudice and animosity certainly exist between the Japanese and the Chinese, and the word 支那 may be one expression of Japanese prejudice against the Chinese. But I am not sure if it is proper to characterize them using the term "racism." The Chinese Wikipedia page speaks of the derogatory connotation of this word (支那), but does not use the term 种族主义 in describing this word. I believe that the assertion that most Chinese people consider the word a "racist term" needs to be supported by reference to some source. Otherwise, I propose to change it to just a "derogatory term."Oyama no taisho (talk) 05:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Romanization

There is quite a lot of spurious romanization from the Chinese going on in this article; it looks like Wade-Giles, but imperfectly executed. It would be far better if we could transform it all to Hanyu Pinyin. 62.57.0.221 16:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sources for Derogatory Nature of 'Shina'

Hello friends. I've edited this page many months ago and confess that I've perhaps neglected to provide sufficient sources. I confess that I more or less assumed this was common knowledge, but of course, that was an inappropriate assumption, so my apologies. I did want to respond to User Ran, but it appears his membership is no longer active.

I've been a bit short of time, but today I'll offer one quick source, namely one of the most authoritative Japanese kanji dictionaries, namely the 'Kanji-Gen' (漢字源) published by Gakushū Kenkyūsha (学習研究社) and edited by the widely respected scholar Kudō Akiyasu (藤堂 明保) - who, by the way, graduated from Tokyo Imperial University, was a Foreign Ministry researcher and lived in China before the war. The entry for shina (支那) in the Kanjigen reads in part as follows: 「中国のこと。昔、中国の仏教徒が、仏典を漢訳するときに、インドでの中国の名称を音訳したもの。元来外国人が中国を呼ぶときに用いてきたもの。現代は、蔑称に近いとして使用しない。「至那」「脂那」とも書く。「震旦シンタン」ともいう。▽Ｃｈｉｎａ（英語・ドイツ語）・Ｃｈｉｎｅ（フランス語）などと同じく、語源は秦シンだといわれているが、異説もある。Here's my translation: "[Meaning:] China. In ancient times, when Chinese Buddhists translated the Buddhist sutras into Chinese, they used the transliteration [i.e., the transcription of the sound] of the word used in India for China. Originally, it was the word used by foreigners to refer to China. In modern times [gendai - i.e., after WWII] , it is close to being derogatory and is therefore not used." [My emphasis.] Also, according to the authoritative Kenkyusha's J-E dictionary, the word 蔑称 (besshō) used above means "a disparaging [derogatory] name [term]." The first character in the compound is 蔑 (bestu) and is sagesumi (蔑み) and the latter character is 称 (shō), which means a name, title or appellation. For sagesumi, Kenkyusha refers the reader to 軽蔑 (keibetsu), which is defined as "contempt; scorn; disdain; slighting; a slight." The verb form (with suru する) is defined as "despise; 《文》[lit.] con[d]emn; scorn; disdain; slight; belittle; look down (up)on [someone]; think little [lightly, nothing] of [someone]; have contempt for [someone]; treat [regard] [someone] with contempt [disdain]; hold [someone] in contempt [scorn, low repute, low regard]; be contemptuous [disdainful] of [something]." Unfortunately, Kenkyusha's entry for shina only refers the reader to the entry for chūgoku (中国 China), so readers who do not check such original Japanese sources as the Kanjigen will know nothing about the derogatory nature of the word. The Kanjigen leaves no doubt.

I believe anyone who lives here in Japan for some time and reads books on history will be aware that apologists for imperialism and militarism (which the great majority of Japanese are certainly not) here in Japan routinely use certain words in speech and writing that clearly signal their revisionist views of history and right-wing political allegiances. This usage is intentional. I've read somewhere that the word shina was included in a list of words which U.S. Occupation authorities banned in public usage as promoting militarism and imperialism - I'll try to find the source if I can find the time. I do know that the word Daitōa Sensō (大東亜戦争 - Great East Asia War) was included in this list. In short, in my experience, such words as shina, sangokujin (三国人 or natives of Imperial Japan's former colonies of Taiwan, Korea and China), Daitōa Sensō and kokumin dōtoku 国民道徳 'national morals' are some of many words consistently used by the extreme right in Japan. Look up one of the few revisionist books (see Wiki entry for "Japanese history textbook controversies") and you will find they always use "Great East-Asia War" and never "Pacific War."

One final comment. I must agree with User Oyama but mainly because I believe the word 'racist' is overused to the point of absurdity. 'Racism' is a biological theory stating that one race is 'superior' to others based on some definition of 'superiority,' usually certain physical features or intelligence or both. (And if anyone knows the history of the Arabs, the Jews and the Chinese I suppose we'd have to say they all would rank in the top three spots.....). I favor bringing back the old word 'prejudiced.' It means 'pre-judge' someone. Bizarrely, a 'racist' need not hate the person who he believes he is racially superior to. But, I would argue, expressing contempt for someone merely for his ethnic identity is certainly a kind of hate.

From this perspective, you might say that 'derogatory' and 'prejudiced' are even stronger terms of condemnation than 'racist' because they connote a charge of deep-seated moral depravity characteristic of those who judge others by something so superficial as ethnic identity instead of the 'content of his character.'

Thanks to all for your kind comments.

--Gunnermanz (talk) 12:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, fine but where's the article on Sina in Chinese?

20th C Japanese usage of the term is of course notable, but 8th-20th Century Chinese usage has got left behind. Note zh:支那 is a disamb, zh:支那 (梵語) interwikis to Names_of_China#Chin and zh:支那 (日语) interwikis to this. Also Sina is a disamb and Sino. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:06, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression that this article was about the Japanese word, which is why the article title is located at "Shina", and not "Sina", "Sino" or "Zhina". Hence, one would think that the article exclusively deals with Japanese usage, and usage of Sina would likely appear elsewhere in a separate article. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Double standard for non-Japanese languages

If "Shina" is a discriminatory word, how to explain so many European languages adopt "China"? Are they derogatory? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hellozeronet (talk • contribs) 16:07, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree. China doesn't even call Japan Nippon or Japan, they call it Riben, which I find offensive. China isn't even called China but everyone calls it "China" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naturalthing (talk • contribs) 17:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Shina 支那 is a chinese word

支那 (Shina) is chinese words, and the pronoune shina is come from the chinese language at Tang dynasty. --Alfredo ougaowen (talk) 01:41, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Source(s)? You claimed to be active on the Chinese Wikipedia on your talk page and your account on the English Wikipedia is over 12-years-old; surely you are familiar with Wikipedia's policy on including sources for added content? Do not redo your changes without citing reliable sources first. Yue🌙 05:15, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

If you can read Chinese word, you would know that are the same chinese words in Korea and Janese. and you can read the reference Fogel2012 to know the content I add is correct.--Alfredo ougaowen (talk) 16:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You are completely ignoring my reasoning. I AM Chinese, and perhaps something is lost in translation, because none of what you are saying is of any relevance to the issues I am bringing up. The use of Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean has nothing to do with your edits. You are adding unsourced material to the lead and making unsourced claims. You are not defending those edits here either, you are just repeating them like it's common sense that if a language (Japanese in this case) uses Chinese characters, then the claim that the Japanese term is derived from Chinese is valid. I should not have to explain why editing like this is an issue to an account that is over a decade old and has over 100,000 edits on the Chinese Wikipedia. Yue🌙 00:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: Any factual claim that has been challenged by another editor requires a citation to a reliable source. Moreover, @Alfredo ougaowen, Fogel 2012, which you cited, clearly states: "The one Japanese expression used for China for centuries, but especially over the century from late Edo through 1945, Shina, has been the one that has most exercised Chinese opinion" (emphasis added). Courtesy ping @Yue. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)