Talk:Thingyan

Songkran

Thingyan and Songkran share many origins but are not the same. The current Songkran article is supported by some random web sites, and not by reliable sources. Hybernator (talk) 02:56, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

• To the IP making all the changes, please read this: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Hybernator (talk) 05:02, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

• To the anonymous editor (represented by various IPs), I suggest you read the your own sources. The source you yourself used (Kizer in Danico 2014) says "Although Lunar New Year is celebrated by a variety of different ethnic groups the media and public often refer to the holiday as "Chinese New Year," or "Chinese Lunar New Year". As for the rest of the sources, no offense but a website of a Thai Buddhist monastery , a blog by steelmaker POSCO, specifying it as "Thai Songkran festival" and a food article making sweeping claims aren't reliable sources. If you think they are, please read (or reread) WP:RS.

• You've made claims on my talk page about how you're representing the usage in the West and Australia. (Please don't assume that the people outside Australia aren't familiar with the usage in the West.) If you can find sources that demonstrate most Westerners outside of Asia think Lunar New Year is something other than the Chinese New Year, or think "Songkran" is celebrated in Southeast Asian countries (if they know what that is at all), I'll have no problem keeping the terms here in the article. Why not? If reliable sources say they represent common usage in English speaking countries, then that's that. But some Australian Thai monastery's website, a steelmaker's blog and a food article don't make it so. If anything, you'll have to override the point (Kizer--your touted professor) is making that people (presumably in the US) just think Lunar New Year as Chinese New Year! I assume good faith but you're misrepresenting the professor's point. I'd reread her article, and WP:RS. Hybernator (talk) 16:12, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• Okay, I understand what you said about the book but in relation to "Songkran" it's not just a food article, it's from the SBS website a major Australian television network that is dedicated to matters relating to multicultural Australia. It's not making sweeping claims, I don't know why you're making disparaging remarks about that article and indirectly to the TV network. How can you say it's unreliable @Hybernator:? You seem to disprove of it because it's a Thai-centric word, understand that it's not Thai-centric in Australia. (110.149.156.106 (talk) 01:09, 1 January 2017 (UTC))

• A source from the ABC, another major Australian TV network. Lunar New Year (110.149.156.106 (talk) 01:18, 1 January 2017 (UTC))
• Songkran festival: celebrating new year in Thailand and Myanmar with water fights source from, The Daily Telegraph, a British newspaper.
• Google, an American company created a "Google Doodle" for Songkran in Thailand and Burma in 2015. Songkran Festival 2015 (Thailand, Myanmar)
• Here's another source, that is NOT suitable for Wikipedia showing how the term "Songkran" is used by American people in the comment section of this article. This shows an example how Americans use the term, "Songkran" to collectively refer to the Thai/Lao/Khmer/Burmese/Sri Lankan New Year. Celebrate the Lunar New Year at Disneyland Park You asked for a source that demonstrates how Westerners use the term here it is, this source however is not suitable for Wikipedia.
• 2016 Lunar New Year at Crown ← This is an image, again not suitable for Wikipedia that demonstrates how Westerners (Australians) use the term "Lunar New Year". This is the official logo for the 2016 Lunar New Year celebration at Crown Melbourne. You will see that it does not say "Chinese New Year" but "Lunar New Year" you will also see that it has the traditional New Year greeting in both Mandarin and Vietnamese.
• Comment: How Lunar New Year became a commercial event in the West ← Another source showing how here in Australia, a western country, "Lunar New Year" doesn't mean Chinese New Year. This article discusses the commercialization of the Lunar New Year in the West in relation to the Chinese and Vietnamese communities in Australia. After the Chinese and Indians, the Vietnamese are the third largest Asian group in Australia, so the article focused on those two groups. (110.149.156.106 (talk) 01:52, 1 January 2017 (UTC))
• Travel During the Lunar New Year: Etiquette, Gifts & More ← Discusses etiquette, gifts and traditions of the Lunar New Year in East Asia and Vietnam with mention to the celebrations that occur in Thailand, Cambodia, Myanmar, and Sri Lanka. (121.220.1.114 (talk) 07:18, 3 January 2017 (UTC))

• Apparently, you didn't read WP:RS. Read this section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#News_organizations. "Human interest reporting is generally not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy (see junk food news)." A blog published under SBS's food site qualifies as such. The author wasn't an expert--says the Songkran festival falls on April 13-15. That may be true in Thailand but not everywhere else. The same error is present in the Telegraph's picture gallery. They apparently didn't go through the normal scrutiny I assume these organizations uphold.

• I can WP:Cherrypick and present this 2016 CCTV news report whose announcer says "Across Southeast Asia, people are celebrating 'Thingyan', otherwise known as the Water Festival". Or this 2015 AOL article which reports "Thingyan Songkran Water Festival". Should we update the Songkran article as it's also called Thingyan using those reports as reference? That would be WP:UNDUE. Those reports alone do not pass the criteria of reliable sources.

• Your edits assert that Songkran is commonly used in the West to represent other celebrations. For that, see Wikipedia:Common knowledge. You need to provide reliable sources. And as one of your previous references--and the only academic source--(Kizer in Danico 2014) says, most people at least in America have no idea about Southeast Asian festivals, and just think the Lunar New Year is Chinese New Year. Per WP:UNDUE "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article." (Btw, the West isn't just the English speaking countries. Australia alone doesn't represent the "West".) Fact is: neither your SBS food blog nor Telegraph travel gallery supports your assertion that "as a collective term including other Asian Lunar New Year celebrations celebrated in April, generally used outside of Asia." That statement is not supported by the only academic source you ever cited--which says most people think Asian lunar celebration is the Chinese New Year. See WP:SYNTH.

• Lastly, the infobox already states that it's related to Cambodian, Lao, Sri Lankan and Thai new years. Hybernator (talk) 23:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Did you look at the "Songkran"-related sources above? They provide insight as to how the term is used in parts of the world, outside of Asia. (101.160.19.227 (talk) 04:34, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

• Did you read my post? I can edit the Songkran article to say that it's also called Thingyan. Hybernator (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

• @Hybernator: You didn't even answer my question. Did you read them or not? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 04:43, 16 January 2017 (UTC))
• If you read my post, you'd know. Use a username. Hybernator (talk) 04:44, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

@Hybernator: You obviously didn't because you're going on about Lunar New Year. I'm forgetting that part, I'm referring to "Songkran".

Here are sources that demonstrate that.

• Songkran festival: celebrating new year in Thailand and Myanmar with water fights source from, The Daily Telegraph, a British newspaper.
• Google, an American company created a "Google Doodle" for Songkran in Thailand and Burma in 2015. Songkran Festival 2015 (Thailand, Myanmar)
• Here's another source, that is NOT suitable for Wikipedia showing how the term "Songkran" is used by American people in the comment section of this article. This shows an example how Americans use the term, "Songkran" to collectively refer to the Thai/Lao/Khmer/Burmese/Sri Lankan New Year. Celebrate the Lunar New Year at Disneyland Park You asked for a source that demonstrates how Westerners use the term here it is, this source however is not suitable for Wikipedia.

(101.160.19.227 (talk) 04:54, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

• You apparently don't understand or don't want to understand. I cited reports that say Thingyan is celebrated across Southeast Asia. If I were to change the Songkran article, it would be WP:UNDUE. If you think most Americans know what Songkran or Thingyan is, you're hallucinating. Your current Songkran article contains unreliable sources too, and amounts to pure POV. Hybernator (talk) 05:01, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Well did you see the source from Google @Hybernator:? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 05:05, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

@Hybernator: Can you also show me the sources that state that Thingyan is celebrated across Southeast Asia, I'm generally interested because I only thought, "Songkran" was used. (101.160.19.227 (talk) 05:07, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

@Hybernator: Do you have sources or did you make that up? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

Read my previous main post. Carefully. Google's Doodle doesn't make it reliable. No more than the Telegraph's travel gallery or SBS's food blog. Neither does CCTV news report that says Thingyan was celebrated across Southeast Asia. If you think most Americans know Songkran or Thingyan, you'd better find a reliable source that says so. Re-read WP:RS and WP:UNDUE: "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article." Hybernator (talk) 05:18, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

You're ignoring my question @Hybernator:, are you lying? You said, "I cited reports that say Thingyan is celebrated across Southeast Asia", so where are there? I'm generally interested, I'm willing to let this go but I want to see the sources first? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 05:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

If "Google Doodle", SBS, The Telegraph are not reliable sources, then what is a reliable source? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

• Did you play the CCTV news video? Did you read the AOL link? The links are up there. Ad hominem attacks won't get you far. Stick to reliable sources, stay neutral and don't synthesize. Re-read them--carefully. 05:35, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

@Hybernator: I apologize I didn't see them but AOL doesn't say, Southeast Asia is celebrating "Thingyan" it says, "Called Thingyan in Myanmar and Songkran in Thailand", the CCTV source however says that, Also I don't need to make an account, I was told that by another user when someone said the same thing to me because they weren't agreeing with my edits last year. Okay I understand what you're saying, we should then leave "Songkran" out of the "Also called" subheading on the Thingyan page. As for the Songkran article, should the name be changed to "Samkranti" or "Samkranti (Southeast Asia)" since the word, "Songkran" derives from the term, "Samkranti"? Ignoring the meaning the term has in India the word in Southeast Asian cultures and similar cultures in South Asia have derived words in their languages from "Samkranti" such as "Songkran" and "Thingyan" maybe the article's name should be changed to that. What do you think? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 05:51, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

• There's already an article on Water Festival. AFAIK, it's a strictly Southeast Asian festival. It's neutral. Songkran, Thingyan, etc. are country-specific festivals. They are similar but not the same. The Thai Songkran festival is now based on the solar calendar. Thailand hasn't followed the lunisolar calendar since 1941, and the Thai Songkran dates are fixed to the Gregorian calendar. The Thingyan dates aren't fixed to the solar calendar; they still follow the traditional lunisolar calendar. I don't know how it is in Laos or Cambodia. They might still on the lunisolar calendar. Again, similar but not the same. I urge you to look for more academic sources. Hybernator (talk) 06:19, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Why should I look for more academic sources, what information are they going to support and on what article? (101.160.19.227 (talk) 06:32, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

• Reliable sources? That Songkran is no longer lunisolar. That Thingyan is. That Cambodian calendar is or isn't. Etc. If you're serious about writing an encyclopedic article on the new year festival shared amongst several SEA countries, rather than regurgitation of random sources by non-experts... Hybernator (talk) 06:38, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Okay I understand I will search for some academic sources but seriously, you don't have to be rude about it. (101.160.19.227 (talk) 07:18, 16 January 2017 (UTC))

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