Talk:Victor L. Berger

Nieder-Rebbach

• Where is Nieder Rebbach? --Sheynhertz-Unbayg 19:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Răbăgani, Robogány ?

Râpă de Jos(Rîpă de Jos), Alsórépa ?, near Reghin

Rupea, Kőhalom ?

--Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 05:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Rebbach is a misspelling of Rehbach. But..., where is there?? (;_;) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 05:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

→ Discussion revived in § Birthplace

Moved to Milwaukee

American national biography says he moved to Milwaukee in 1881, not 1880. Anyone know the truth about this? Tfine80 00:24, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Congress' authority to refuse to seat member

Congress has the authority to refuse to seat an elected member, but I don't know where in the law this authority is described and granted. A link to that statute would be helpful here, I think. (I think it's in the same section that grants Congress authority to refuse to certify a State's electorial votes.)

If I find the information, I'll add it to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.148.235.6 (talk) 17:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Racism of Berger

The article fails to mention Berger's racism. I believe that it is discussed in Weinstein's books.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:11, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Then again, is that any more important to this story than his sexism or the fact that he liked beer? Carrite (talk) 02:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Necroposting

Carrite, it matters because Berger was unusually racist within the socialist movement at the time. Moreover, his racism played a part in the movement's drift away from internationalism. It's really quite glaring when you read the relevant sections in Kipnis.

Presumably to fill this lacuna, User:Lightiggy recently added

Berger was a supporter of segregation, arguing that "Negroes and mulattoes constitute a lower race — that the Caucasian and even the Mongolian have the start on them in civilization by many years."

and Category:American segregationists, citing Jones, William P. (August 11, 2015). "Something to Offer". Jacobin. Retrieved February 29, 2024.

Unfortunately, I think the Jones piece actually misrepresents the primary source it is founded on and Berger may not have been a segregationist (but was racist in other ways).

Jones' Jacobin article is primarily about Eugene V. Debs and appears to mainly repackage Jones, William P. (Fall 2008). "'Nothing Special to Offer the Negro'". International Labor and Working-Class History (74). Cambridge University Press: 214. JSTOR 27673131. In that work, Jones describes Berger as follows:

Socialists often resorted to the position that segregation merely confirmed a preexisting hierarchy, as when Milwaukee Congressman Victor Berger defended segregation on the grounds that "Negroes and mulattoes constitute a lower race — that the Caucasian and even the Mongolian have the start on them in civilization by many years."

That article cites: Shannon, David A. (1955). The Socialist Party of America. p. 52, of which the Internet Archive has the 1967 Quadrangle Books reprint. The page numbers are probably a little off in the reprint, because I find the Berger quote on p. 50-51, and Shannon has some even more damning quotes, but doesn't explicitly state that Berger supported segregation:

...the white supremacy of Victor Berger. Berger was as blunt as possible in an editorial in his Social Democratic Herald. "There can be no doubt that the negroes and mulattoes constitute a lower race — that the Caucasian and indeed even the Mongolian have the start on them in civilization by many thousand years — so that negroes will find it difficult ever to overtake them. The many cases of rape which occur wherever negroes are settled in large numbers prove, moreover, that the free contact with the whites has led to the further degeneration of the negroes, as well as all other inferior races." Berger seemed not to be aware that his readers might infer that Negroes learned their presumed tendency to rape from contact with whites, but he did hold that the values of white capitalist America were responsible for "the barbarous behavior of the American whites towards the negroes." In America, Berger argued, people are judged by their wealth. Negroes are poor. Ergo, Negroes are inferior. "The utter degradation of the negro is...a part of this system." If Berger seemed to be contradicting himself, he could reply that capitalist values only further degraded an already inferior people.

While I do cite all the above documents in my most recent edit to the page, Shannon's analysis troubles me. When person A writes that otherwise-intelligent person B misses the implications of B's own writing and might even have written something self-contradictory, that's often a sign that person A failed to understand what person B wrote. So I looked up the Herald editorial ("The Misfortune of the Negroes" (PDF). Social Democratic Herald. 31 May 1902).

Does Berger genuinely think that "there can be no doubt that the negroes and mulattoes constitute a lower race"? Well, a good historian takes their sources at face value unless contradicted elsewhere. If Berger didn't mean that line, he probably shouldn't have written it. But: that line also opens his editorial. When I write an argumentative essay, I was taught to start with something the reader will agree with, to draw them in. Then I then problematize or contradict it, to keep them hooked. (For example: this paragraph.) Is Berger only saying "there can be no doubt" to defuse his readership's instinctive response to what he'll say next? And, besides, if this lesser-racehood justifies segregation, then why doesn't Berger end his editorial there?

We don't have to guess at those questions. Three sentences later, we get Shannon's second quote: "The barbarous behavior of the American whites towards the negroes, the contempt evinced for their human rights, is due to the fact that in this country men are judged chiefly according to the amount of capital which they possess....As capitalists our dark fellow citizens play an exceedingly modest role." That is: segregation is not justified. (It's "barbarous".) Nor does it arise from any lesser-racehood. It arises because blacks are "exceedingly modest" capitalists: that is, poor. This analysis (not justification) is, of course, consistent with socialism's materialist philosophical precommitments and long-standing concern for the legal systems within which property rights are constructed. Indeed, when we get to Shannon's third quote ("The utter degradation of the negro is also a part of this system"; I'm not sure why Shannon elided "also") in the penultimate paragraph, "this system" refers to "our capitalistic system of property, which proceeds from the principle that a man has the right to appropriate to himself as much property as he can acquire, and to hold the others down."

IMHO Shannon's reading is not the best take on this editorial, but a plausible one; whereas Jones' summary of Shannon's reading further distorts the editorial and cannot be justified. I'm not sure how to handle this situation, where it appears that the passage of time and accretion of historical work has generated something of a whisper-down-the-lane. I'm worried that I'm doing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH.

Hoping that my recent edit (linked above) adequately summarizes the scholarly consensus, Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 05:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

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Birthplace

This article, and many other sources, list Berger's birthplaces as "Nieder Rehbach" in Austria-Hungary. Problem is, other than these references to Berger, I can't find a mention of a place named Nieder Rehbach. I wonder what place this is or was? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 14:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

@Jpgordon: If you are still interested in this, I believe I have the answer. Per House.gov, Berger was educated in Leutschau (Levoča), in modern-day northeastern Slovakia (an area that also had many Jews at the time, consistent with Berger's family). "Nieder" is German for "lower" (as in Lower Austria and Lower Saxony), making "Rehbach" the important part. About 6 miles from Levoča lies the town of Nižné Repaše, which is sometimes known in German as "Unterrepasch". "Unter", just like "nieder", is an indication of lower elevation (in this case lower than Vyšné Repaše). As such, its name translates to "Lower Repasch", just like Nieder Rehbach translates to "Lower Rehbach". The part about Romania was first added in 2005 (as Transylvania) without explanation, and there is no RS that agrees with this claim. Cilidus (talk) 21:30, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

More searching shows a lot of "Nieder Rebbach" connections for Berger, but that also seems nebulous -- and I find no other mention of "Rebbach" other than in connection with Berger. I've also found "Reback". I've found no actual documents. Very circular, I fear. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 01:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

My theory constitutes WP:OR and should not be accepted. I have also found the town of Nižné Ružbachy, which is likewise very near to Levoča. It was known in Hungarian at the time as "Alsó-Rusbach" (Lower Rusbach), and in German is sometimes given as "Nieder-Rauschenbach". The town of "Nieder Rehbach", with similar spellings, simply does not exist outside of discussions about Berger. I would consider both N. Repaše and N. Ružbachy strong candidates for the "actual" location. Cilidus (talk) 01:43, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

A third theory is the town of Nižný Hrabovec, which was known as Alsó-Hrabócz (silent H) at the time. As I have not been able to find any German name for the town, it is possible that "Nieder Rehbach" was an unofficial name used by Berger or by German speakers in the area. This could perhaps explain why there are no records of this name today. It is impossible to know for certain, and I have not been able to rule out any of the three options. Cilidus (talk) 02:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

It is a fascinating puzzle. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 05:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The JewishGen Communities Database shows no results for Nieder Rehbach, Nieder Rebbach, Rehbach, or Rebbach. I searched for Leutschau, where Berger went to gymnasium because presumably that's in the vicinity of "Nieder-Rehbach". It produced 3 results: one each in present-day Slovakia, Poland, and Ukraine. This is certainly a mystery. I think some research in more contemporaneous records would be worthwhile. MarconiCheese (talk) 14:45, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi - I wanted to offer some input as I'm pretty sure Nizne Repase is Victor's birthplace. I happened to stumble upon Victor in researching a bare branch of my family tree - the siblings of my great-great-great grandfather, Emanuel Berger - who was born in the town of Leibicz kenesfurdo, a few miles from Nizne Repase/Felso-Repas. His eldest sibling was Ignacz Berger, born 1829, who married a Cati/Gütel Spatz (dau. of Isak Spatz) in Kesmark(Kezmarok) in 1858. These people match Victor's parents as listed in his marriage record- though he lists his mother as Julia Spatz, rather than Cati. However, if you look at findagrave.com for Ignatz and Julia's grave in Connecticut, Julia's hebrew name is Gittel bas Yitzhak - matching with both Gutel and her father's name Isak. Moreover, the only child of Ignacz and Cati listed is Juda Berger, born Feb. 28, 1859 in Felső-Répás (now Nizne Repase). In US records, Victor's birth is listed as as Feb. 28, 1860 - so very similar, + it was common for immigrants to not recall their exact birthdate correctly. Lastly, while Juda appears to be a much different name than Victor Luitpold - Juda's corresponding Yiddish nickname is Leib, which was commonly Magyar-ified to Lipot (Leopold). Based on all of this - I'm almost certain Victor was born in Felso-Repas. Eliezerdescendant (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

This is fun! I've found mention of Romania in Berger's obituary in Vorwärts (published in Berlin, not to be confused with the newspaper Berger himself published). The obituary states that he was born in "Niederrehbach (Siebenbürgen, damals Ungarn)" translated "Niederrehbach (Transylvania, then Hungary)". The article also mentions that Berger visited his "homeland" in 1923, which "had now become part of Romania" (second-to-last paragraph). I'll add the citation to the article. Here's the link. The typeface is fraktur -- not entirely legible if you are only used to latin script. It's the second article in the second column. I think this newspaper article is probably WP:RS, although I'll leave the dubious tag for now. As for actually finding Niederrehbach in a source not about Berger...there I have failed too. I note that "reh" means deer and "bach" means stream/river. Anyone else think it's odd that he studied at university in both Budapest and Vienna, yet left for America when he was 18? BananaCarrot152 (talk) 21:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Someone who could view a Wisconsin Historical Society microfilm might be able to clarify some of this. [1] --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 04:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

BananaCarrot152's source is definitive enough for me, so I'm removing the {{dubious}} tag (along with fixing a dead link). Also the suggestion that "Rehbach" literally means "Deer-brook" has proven fruitful. The latter apparently translates into Romanian as "Pârâul Cerb", which is the name of a Transylvanian creek (ro.wiki link; en.wiki unfortunately just redirects to that creek's parent river). My best guess is that Victor was born in a sufficiently rural location as to lack a formal placename (i.e., Niederrehbach was a descriptor instead). Bernanke's Crossbow (talk) 19:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Should we rename this "Victor Berger"

Should we omit the middle initial from the article title? I don't see a reason to include it. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 08:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

IOHANNVSVERVS, carefully review the footnotes (usually called references). You will see that reliable sources commonly use his middle initial or his middle name. That justifies the current title. Cullen328 (talk) 09:11, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured that was probably the case after I posted this. Thank you. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:13, 16 January 2024 (UTC)