Talk:Walt Whitman/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Nudism

User:Midnightdreary removed the parapraph (copied below, but commented out so that it is not visible) which I added on Walt Whitman's well documented practise of nudism and suggested because of WP:UNDUE it did not warrant a sub-section of its own. I do agree somewhat with the WP:UNDUE but there is no existing sub-section the topic of nudism can belong to. There is a section Lifestyle and beliefs which is where the information on nudism belongs. The Lifestyle and beliefs section has the the following sub-sections: Alcohol, Religion, Sexuality, Shakespeare authorship, and Slavery. A sub-section on Nudism doesn't clearly and obviously fit in any of these sub sections, which is why I created a sub section of the Lifestyle and beliefs section entitled Nudism. I look for suggestions to deal with this. If there are no better suggestion then I propose we restore the sub-section Nudism under the section Lifestyle and beliefs. Wayne Jayes (talk) 12:14, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

There has been no comment regarding the above for over a week, am therefore reverting the Nudism sub section Wayne Jayes (talk) 06:31, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that usually is how it works. Consensus was established before the content was added (in that the article was previously stable). The addition of that content was not part of the consensus, and restoring it now is not appropriate. I'm choosing not to do so myself because of possible edit war perception, so I leave it to you. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

A separate subsection, consisting of one sentence and a long quote is WP:UNDUE and awkward. There must be a better way to grow an article than just plugging various bits into Walt Whitman#Lifestyle and beliefs. That method is already a weakness in the article; better not to compound the problem. I agree with Midnightdreary; 'Nudism', now 'Sunbathing' should be unplugged. — Neonorange (talk) 16:41, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The fact that he wrote about sunbathing is likely usable, but the extended commentary on it in the first version is undue, IMO, and it appears that others concur. I sought to present the salient material is a neutral manner, but anything more would, I fear, not pass muster here. Collect (talk) 22:15, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Thank you all for your comments Wayne Jayes (talk) 09:49, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Sexuality, etc. in lede

Though I understand the editor's reasoning for removing the information in the lede paragraphs regarding Whitman's sexuality, I worry that the lede no longer accurately summarizes the article. Failure to meet this standard, I fear, no longer qualifies it as its "good article" status. Can this information be restored in some fashion to adhere to lede policy while addressing the editor's concerns? --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:43, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2017

There are nineteen instances where the period is after the quotation mark, and also nineteen instances where the comma is after the quotation mark e.g.

"myth". instead of how it should be "myth."

"Sodomite", instead of how it should be "Sodomite,"

Use the search function of your web browser (typically ctrl-f) to find each of these instances (". & ",). Lukewtollefson (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Wikipedia style, see Wikipedia:TQ , is to use logical quotation. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 21:25, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Life and Adventures of Jack Engle

Interested editors might want to mention material regarding the lost novel Life and Adventures of Jack Engle, e.g. here: Schuessler, Jennifer (February 20, 2017). "In a Walt Whitman Novel, Lost for 165 Years, Clues to Leaves of Grass". The New York Times.. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:27, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Writing Section

I want to preface this comment by stating that I'm a new user, and I am interested in better understanding how to edit pages. I'm concerned that the length of the Writing Section is too brief and doesn't throughouly summarize Whitman's scope of work. It could use a further discussion of how Whitman falls between Transcendentalism and Realism, as stated in the lede. Merely reading through the two pages about Transcendentalism and Realism doesn't give specific insight into how Whitman speciefically fell between these two eras. Formal forest guide (talk) 15:57, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I think this is a fair point. Formal forest guide, basically, we need to find a source that explains this, to which we can credit the new information. If you want to try doing it yourself, try looking at these pages for help: WP:CITE, WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:RS. If I happen to stumble across something, I'll add it myself. --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:43, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 March 2017

170.185.167.17 (talk) 13:41, 3 March 2017 (UTC)He is gay

He was gay or bi. This is discussed extensively in the article. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 14:24, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 March 2017

Under religion it is argued that Walt spent a period of his life worshiping Satan, because God would not answer his prayers. 163.150.50.253 (talk) 18:43, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 23:18, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2017

Include Walt Whitman in the LGBT Writers category 24ducklings (talk) 18:40, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@24ducklings: Done, added to Category:LGBT writers from the United States. Thanks for your contribution. Murph9000 (talk) 21:30, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Leaves of Grass Politics Nationalism

The article as a whole is woefully inadequate. It fails to discuss the political background to Whitman's work - Freesoilers, the Know-Nothing party, the Republican party, exclusionism. ’’Leaves of Grass’’ is a deeply ideological work and any article on Whitman himself has to address his nationalism as well as his attitudes to issues such as race and immigration. As it stands an entire section is devoted to sunbathing and swimming with nothing directly on politics! His contemporary and well as his subsequent reputation should be addressed. In short, questions about Whitman's political and social ideology, as someone who is accused of putting forth an imagined view of America that is "arrogant, expansionist, hierarchical, racist and exclusive", should be addressed in the main article on the man and not shunted off to an article on a particular work, especially when his views are shown 'least vaguely'in other places. If this requires a new section or two then fine. It cheats those looking for a rounded view of the man to leave it out entirely Pliny (talk) 14:12, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I added your addition to the Leaves of Grass article, so now it's inclusion here is just redundant. I would reiterate that including one modern viewpoint in a section on the book's contemporary publication is absolutely and unarguably inappropriate. Another section would be more useful, but it should not merely repeat what is now stated in the other article. I would note, nevertheless, there is plenty of content about Whitman's political and social views (including a section on his view of the races, to which you added) and, therefore, it hardly seems fair for the criticism that there is nothing directly about his politics in this article. All that said, this article will never be fully exhaustive and is intended as an overview, as you know. --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

To call OReilly's polemic 'intellectually dishonest' would be generous; he frequently quotes Whitman and then ascribes the exact opposite meaning from what was Whitman's obvious intention. Similarly, he ascribes Know-Nothing political views to Whitman while acknowledging 'Whitman switched from the Democratic party to the Republican party'. The axe he obviously once possessed has been ground to nothing. Dlabtot (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2018

Hello fellow Wikipedia Editors: Kindly change Section 4.1 Musical renditions and audio recordings - Specifically, paragraph #1 which reads Whitemans poetry has been set to music by a large number of composers....including... to include the name of the composer Robert Strassburg into the list of noted composers who set Whitman's poetry to music-- in this case "Leaves of Grass - A Choral Symphony" as per the reference citations shown below. Many thanks in advance for your kind and thoughtful consideration and assistance. With Best Regards104.207.219.150 (talk) 23:14, 29 October 2018 (UTC)PS

References

104.207.219.150 (talk) 23:14, 29 October 2018 (UTC)104.207.219.150 (talk) 23:22, 29 October 2018 (UTC)PS

Done. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:32, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2018

Request is to add Vanessa Lann as a composer who used texts by Walt Whitman, thank you. VlannCo (talk) 16:40, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:49, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

- there is no mention of using Whitman material in the Vanessa Lann article - WP:VERIFY - Epinoia (talk) 16:53, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The work is called 'O Whispering Suns' http://www.brundibarartsfestival.com/pdfs/VanessaLann.pdf http://www.lann.dds.nl/comp.htm https://www.worldcat.org/title/o-whispering-suns-a-doina-in-6-scenes-for-large-choir-medium-choir-violin-and-cymalom-2010/oclc/908842171 not sure if any of these are WP:RS, though. Opinions? Dlabtot (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I just don't see the need to have a completist mentality on these types of listings. Keep it short and simple; it will never be fully comprehensive with the level of influence Whitman has. --Midnightdreary (talk) 03:30, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2018

Include Walt Whitman in American Socialists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gbjerkec (talk • contribs) 15:28, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2019

Like to add a little bit about how w.w. was a minor point with Breaking Bad, TV show Pabth0s0n (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done Just too minor to warrant inclusion here, I think. There's no other "in other media" type trivia in the "Legacy and influence" section and this sort of material is generally shunned at Wikipedia. Perhaps worth mentioning at Breaking Bad (although pretty insignificant even there), but not here. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:50, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: per above DannyS712 (talk) 07:37, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Opinions and facts need to be kept separate

Whitman lived in a specific political time and was outspoken about much of the politics in his journalism and letters. Opinions regarding his attitudes toward different races and sex should be kept separate and labeled as opinions since to read Whitman literally he felt everyone was equal in each regard. Working in Washington D.C. first with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and then with the Attorney General meant that Whitman was aware of much of the political climate of his times and that he had a unique perspective on the Civil War as he first watched and then assisted with the tremendous amount of returning soldiers wounded and dying who lined the National Mall in tents. Whitman's main duty was to help the soldiers write letters home and to assist with simple medical procedures like changing bandages; however, his interaction with these soldiers changed his poetry and his outlook considerably. His letters show a distinctly different voice developing as he worked with the soldiers more and grew into the poet we know today. After his first stroke left him unable to continue his duties he still wrote about the experiences and attempted to make sense of what he experienced.

Suggesting that Whitman had racist overtones or explicit writings on his own personal sexuality is hard to prove. There are passages which explain certain situations he encountered but with a more journalistic writing than an extant statement on race relations or sex. It is difficult to separate any artist from the world of experiences they had and we should not attempt to do that by using opinions and interpretations of Whitman's work when simply explaining his work, life and influence. At the very least opinions and interpretations should be marked as such in any listing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JulesHef (talk • contribs) 02:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Walt Whitman Statue at Rutgers Camden

In the legacy/statues section, the Walt Whitman statue in front of the campus center/union should be mentioned, the campus green is a few blocks from the Walt Whitman House. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.249.252 (talk) 15:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Internal link to Mary Berenson

The article mentions "Mary Smith Whitall Costelloe"; this ought actually to be "Mary Whitall Smith Costelloe", she being born "Mary Whitall Smith", daughter of Logan Pearsall Smith and Hannah Whitall Smith (as her own article indicates). Search results- including the Whitman Archive- only bring up the latter, with nothing for "Mary Smith Whitall Costelloe". She was apparently at any rate better known as "Mary Berenson", per the title of her article, but either way an internal link could usefully be added to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.66.120 (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this comment. How certain are we that this is the same person? I can easily make that update and link if appropriate to do so. --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:42, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, just reading this article and wondered about this person, and saw this posting; these sources seem pretty definitive:

https://whitmanarchive.org/criticism/current/encyclopedia/entry_86.html

https://ir.uiowa.edu/wwqr/vol17/iss3/2/

https://whitman-prod.unl.edu/biography/correspondence/tei/loc.01344.html

https://itatti.harvard.edu/mary-berenson

The Harvard site seems the most helpful in bringing it all together (her birth name/ parents, married name, friendship with Whitman). Also I guess the first commenter meant she was daughter of "ROBERT" Pearsall Smith (his son was Logan), as Mary Berenson's article here says that, with sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.75.151 (talk) 15:11, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2020

Add one or more quotes to Slavery section, as the section as it stands does not sufficiently characterize recent scholarship on Whitman's racism and the profound questions it raises about Whitman's legacy.

Whitman wrote in 1858 in the article Prohibition of Colored Persons, "Who believes that the Whites and Blacks can ever amalgamate in America? Or who wishes it to happen? Nature has set an impassable seal against it. Besides, is not America for the Whites? And is it not better so?"

Source: Noverr, Douglas A., et al. Walt Whitman's Selected Journalism. United States, University of Iowa Press, 2015, pg. 52.

and

As Whitman wrote during Reconstruction, "As if we had not strained the voting and digestive caliber of American Democracy to the utmost for the last fifty years with the millions of ignorant foreigners, we have now infused a powerful percentage of blacks, with about as much intellect and calibre (in the mass) as so many baboons."

Source: Reynolds, David S. Walt Whitman's America: A Cultural Biography. Vintage, 1996. pg. 470. Otaverse (talk) 16:56, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Bare quotes from the subject of the article without any secondary commentary generally aren't helpful. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:55, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I believe these are worthwhile additions. The context is already provided in the article in its current state; this is merely complementary material. --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

reference to his "nickname" but no statement of it

Under the subhead "Civil War Years," toward the end of the 4th paragraph is a reference to the establishment of Whitman's "nickname," but it's not stated anywhere in the article. Looking elsewhere I found: "Bard of Democracy" (also found in the article end notes under "Exhibitions"). Here is the sentence that could be improved by adding, "Bard of Democracy" after "nickname": The fifty-cent pamphlet defended Whitman as a wholesome patriot, established the poet's nickname and increased his popularity.[89]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.181.214 (talk) 21:26, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

In the preceding sentence, it mentions it: "The Good Gray Poet." --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Whitman's parents

Although the article makes some reference to Whitman being raised in less than affluent circumstances, oddly no mention is made of his parents' occupations; virtually all biographical sources state that Walter Whitman was a carpenter and house-builder, who at one point tried farming. Given virtually all biographical articles seem to mention such details, it seems like a somewhat surprising omission here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.180.14 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Good luck adding this information! Just remember to cite properly using reliable sources. --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)