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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Warsaw (1705)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 09:57, 17 March 2018 [1].

Battle of Warsaw (1705)

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Nominator(s): Imonoz (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a battle between Swedish forces and Saxon/Polish-Lithuanian forces in the year of 1705, involving the power struggle for the Polish throne between Augustus II the Strong and Stanisław Leszczyński. The outnumbered Swedish force managed to beat their foes after a battle outside Warsaw and protect the coronation of king Stanislaw I. This could be the first battle-article in the Great Northern War to receive the FA status. Imonoz (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
Nikkimaria, Fixed (I believe) Imonoz (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:IMGSIZE, don't use fixed pixel size - you can scale images up or down using |upright=
Fixed (can't figure out how to do it with the infobox image, and the doublings however) Imonoz (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Battle_of_Warsaw_1705.PNG: source link is dead, needs US PD tag
Updated source as best as I could (old source is gone) by adding a new one Imonoz (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Mányoki_Stanislaus_Leszczyński.png needs a US PD tag. Same with File:Aŭgust_Mocny._Аўгуст_Моцны_(H._Rodakowski,_XIX).jpg, File:Jacob_Burensköld_SP158.jpg, File:Altranstadt_Mittagessen_1706.jpg
Fixed Imonoz (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Campaign_of_Grodno.jpg: what is the source of the data presented in this image?
Added source information (should've done that a long time ago) Imonoz (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added an English description (previously only in Swedish) Imonoz (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: I've removed four images from the article (Charles XII, Peter I, Warsaw river and the peace of 1706) as I thought these were not really necessary for this article. I also added one new image in the Aftermath, "The coronation of Stanisław I Leszczyński in 1705". Can you please review this image? And I would also like to know if all the previous issues you noted, are fixed? Imonoz (talk) 14:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Still wondering when and where File:Svensk_Kavalleriformering_1707.JPG was first published. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:08, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I have added details to when it was made (2 July 1707) and where it was made (Altranstädt, Germany). Also when and where it was printed and published (1746, Stockholm). Is that enough? Imonoz (talk) 02:51, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - for US copyright we care more about publication, but that's old enough to be well PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:56, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I see. Just for clarification, does the article pass the image review or is there anything else? Imonoz (talk) 03:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:11, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking your time. Imonoz (talk) 03:40, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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  • There are several Harvard errors:
  • Kling & Sjöström 2015 (refs 1, 4, 30, 52)
  • Imhof & Schönleben 1719 (refs 14, 29, 46)
  • Grimberg & Uddgren 1914 (refs 21, 22, 28, 33, 37, 57)
I'm happy you noticed these. Fixed. Imonoz (talk) 04:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the sources appear to be non-English. Their languages should be stated.
Fixed. Imonoz (talk) 04:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes 1, 3 and 4 are uncited. Perhaps 1 can be taken as purely explanatory, but for 3 and 4 the dates should be confirmed by sources.
Fixed. Imonoz (talk) 04:54, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources appear to be consistently formatted and of appropriate quality and reliability. Brianboulton (talk) 22:44, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Imonoz (talk) 02:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank

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CommentsSupport from Cas Liber

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Hi, am reading through and will make straightforward copyedits as I go and jot questions below: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:30, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

...''...and Stanisław Leszczyński, who eventually seized the Polish throne in 1704 - given this has happened before 1705, which is the time of the narrative, this needs to be in pluperfect tense, i.e. "and Stanisław Leszczyński, who had (eventually) seized the Polish throne in 1704". I think "eventually" is possibly redundant here too.
Changed to: "and Stanisław Leszczyński, who had seized the Polish throne in 1704"
In 1705 a parliament in Warsaw was starting peace negotiations between Poland and Sweden, and the coronation of Stanisław Leszczyński was being planned. - this just sounds odd.
Changed to: "In 1705 two events were planned to take place in Warsaw: a session of the Polish parliament to formally negotiate peace between Poland and Sweden; and the coronation of Stanisław Leszczyński as the new Polish king."
the caption Charles XII, king of Sweden in his typical military uniform - why are we not just saying, "Charles XII, king of Sweden in military uniform"?
Removed "his typical" from the sentence.
After early success, with the seizure of Warsaw, Kraków and Sandomierz[4] and the Battle of Kliszów, where Augustus once again saw himself defeated.. - awkward-sounding, try " After seizing Warsaw, Kraków and Sandomierz[4] and defeating Augustus again at the Battle of Kliszów"

Changed to: "After the Swede's seizure of Warsaw, Kraków and Sandomierz[4] and another defeat for Augustus at the Battle of Kliszów"
Augustus' right to the throne of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth became deeply contested in 1704 sounds odd, try "Augustus' right to the throne of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was strongly challenged in 1704"
Removed this sentence.
In 1705, the time had come for the coronation of Stanisław Leszczyński, - err, why had the time come? why not merely state he was due to be crowned in 1705?
Changed to "Stanisław Leszczyński was due to be crowned in Warsaw, 1705, after which negotiations of peace between Sweden and Poland could take place."

Okay, that's just reading the lead and background sections. I think the prose needs some work. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber:. Thank you for these noted errors. What do you think of the changes? The text has been gone through by several editors and heavily improved over the original text. As there still might be some errors in it, I would be really happy if you could skim through the rest of it and see if similar issues appear with the good eye of yours. Imonoz (talk) 17:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay will do later today. I do worry that if I find this many then I am missing others. I don't have a fine eye for detail so I know I miss things. I will get someone to look at it after I have finished. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
...and they withdrew from the left bank of the Vistula River completely, along with all Polish troops.. - who is the "they" referring to?
Changed to "who withdrew from the left bank of the Vistula River completely, along with all Polish troops."
... and attacked a Swedish guard consisting of 20 men... - "guard"...? "guardpost" do you mean?
That is correct, fixed.
.. in which a plan was constructed that envisioned a joint strike on Nieroth's vulnerable cavalry.." --> " in which a joint strike on Nieroth's vulnerable cavalry was planned?" or even "Paykull held a council of war, and planned a joint strike on Nieroth's vulnerable cavalry..."
Changed to your last alternative which sounds good to me. Imonoz (talk) 17:26, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, looks better now. Also new lead is clearer. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:58, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

support comments from auntieruth

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This is very good. I'm almost ready to support.
I'm concerned about the lead, which is confusing, especially as to who is in charge of what. Wondering if this is clearer? auntieruth (talk) 16:42, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The '''Battle of Warsaw''' (also known as the '''Battle of Rakowitz''' or '''Rakowiec''')<ref group=Note>[[Rakowiec, Warsaw|Rakowiec]] later became part of the [[Ochota]] district of [[Warsaw]].</ref> was fought on 31{{nbsp}}July 1705 ([[Gregorian calendar]])<ref group=Note>Unless otherwise stated, this article uses dates from the [[Gregorian calendar]] (new style), in preference to the [[Swedish calendar|Swedish]] or the [[Julian calendar]] (old style) which were used simultaneously.</ref> near Warsaw, Poland, during the [[Great Northern War]]. The battle was part of a power struggle for the [[List of Polish monarchs#Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, 1569–1795|Polish–Lithuanian throne]]. It was fought between [[Augustus II the Strong]] and [[Stanisław Leszczyński]], Augustus entered the Northern war as king of both [[Electorate of Saxony|Saxony]] and the [[Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth]], and had formed an alliance with [[Denmark–Norway]] and [[Tsardom of Russia|Russia]]. Stanisław Leszczyński had seized the Polish throne in 1704, with the support of the [[Swedish army]] of [[Charles XII of Sweden]]. The struggle for the throne forced the [[List of szlachta|Polish nobility]] to pick sides; the [[Warsaw Confederation (1704)|Warsaw Confederation]] supported Leszczyński and [[Swedish Empire|Sweden]], and the [[Sandomierz Confederation]] supported of Augustus and his allies. The conflict which resulted in the [[Polish civil war (1704–1706)|Polish civil war of 1704–1706]].

In 1705 two events were planned to take place in Warsaw: a session of the Polish parliament to formally negotiate peace between Poland and Sweden; and the coronation of Stanisław Leszczyński as the new Polish king. Meanwhile the allies developed a [[Campaign of Grodno|grand strategy]] that envisioned a combined assault to crush the Swedish forces and restore Augustus II to the Polish throne. Accordingly, an allied army of up to 10,000 cavalry under the command of [[Otto Arnold von Paykull]] was sent towards Warsaw to interrupt the Polish parliament. The Swedes sent a 2,000-strong cavalry contingent of their own, under the command of [[Carl Nieroth]], to protect it. Encouraged by the fact that he heavily outnumbered the Swedes, Paykull took the initiative and attacked. He managed to cross the [[Vistula|Vistula River]] with his army on 30 July, after a stubborn defense by a few Swedish [[Squadron (army)|squadrons]], and reached the plains next to [[Rakowiec, Warsaw|Rakowiec]], directly west of Warsaw, on 31 July, where the two forces engaged in an [[Battle|open battle]].

Augustus’s allied left wing quickly collapsed; after a short but fierce fight, so did the right and centre. Paykull managed to rally some of his troops a few kilometres away, at the village of Odolany, where the fight was renewed. The Swedes again gained the upper hand and, this time, won the battle. They captured Paykull along with letters and other documents which informed the Swedes of the strategic intentions of the allies. The coronation of Stanisław Leszczyński occurred in early October. Peace between Poland and Sweden in November 1705 allowed the Swedish king to focus his attention on the Russian threat near [[Grodno]]. The subsequent campaign resulted in the [[Treaty of Altranstädt (1706)]], by which Augustus renounced both his claim to the Polish throne and his [[Treaty of Narva|alliance]] with [[Peter the Great]] of Russia.

@Auntieruth55:. I compared this version with the original one and yes, I agree this is probably a lot better for readers who are not familiar with the Great Northern War or the Polish Civil War. Now the combatants are much more clear. I'll change it. Imonoz (talk) 19:26, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Imonoz: made a minor tweak. All is well. auntieruth (talk) 16:32, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Imonoz: added the conversion of km distances as well. made a couple of minor tweaks to the "aftermath section" (see below) and such. auntieruth (talk) 15:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Auntieruth55: Thank you so much for that, I appriciate it. Imonoz (talk) 16:57, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Piotrus

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  • In the Aftermath, who are the allies?
@Piotrus: In general, in this article, the "allies" are always the coalition forces (Russia, Saxony, Denmark-Norway and also the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth with the nobility supporting Augustus) unless otherwise stated. The confusion of this kinda went pass my nose as most articles in the Great Northern War does the same. I now see the issue and confusion with this. Is it better to use "coalition forces" instead of "allies" for Russia, Saxony etc, or have a note in the beginning of each article that states who the "allies" actually are? I would happily recive suggestions here to improve my writing in the future. Imonoz (talk) 16:56, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not familiar with the right terminology for this era, but whatever term, define it on the first use. The problem with the article didn't define the allies very well. This is fixed, but I'd recommend adding Augustus' to all usage of allies to make it clear. Currently some sentences say 'Augustus' allies' and some, just allies. This is potentially confusing (are those the same allies? If so, why are they sometimes disambiguated and sometimes, not)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus: I've now added clarification to every mention of "allies" in the article that was not yet clarified. Imonoz (talk) 18:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why they were, probably no particular reason. Auntieruth55 seem to have sorted most of these issues out (big thank you), with capitals and also the confusion of "allies" in the Aftermath. Imonoz (talk) 16:56, 2 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Right, all capitalization issues fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: are your issues addressed now? auntieruth (talk) 17:56, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:11, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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