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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Derry City F.C./archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 17:04, 10 June 2007.

Derry City F.C.

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previous FAC

I am re-nominating this article as I have dealt with the vast majority, if not all, of the points raised in the previous peer review and nomination discussion. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 16:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any way of having bullet points as opposed to asterisks? Personally, I don't think I like the look of that. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 02:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You can just remove the asterisks, as was done here (see refs 81 & 91), I've also seen it in bolded letters although I can't remember where ie; a) b). Quadzilla99 03:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've decided to use Roman numerals. I hope that's OK. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 13:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from The Rambling Man

Firstly, as I have said to you already, well done on persevering. So, to my comments...

  1. "...The era came to an end in 1972 when they left after..." - just clarify what they left I think.
  2. The old WP:Recentism rears its head again. The lead gets us to 1997 but one third of the History section is dedicated to post-1997. Either add more to lead (if it's notable) or reduce the history accordingly.
  3. "Since entering, ..." - entering what?
  4. "The next season — 1988–89 — Jim McLaughlin's side won a treble — the league, the League Cup and the FAI Cup." - a few too many dashes here for me (personal pref.)
  5. "...9 men...", I prefer numbers below 10 to be worded - so "...nine men..."
  6. While not mandated, ref's 51, 53, 55 & 56 don't follow WP:DASH's advice on positioning. Not a big deal.
  7. "...much-welcomed..." - bit POV.
  8. Not keen on the two quotations in the Supporters section being formatted as they are. I can't offer a decent suggestion at the moment, but it just looks a bit odd to me.
  9. Still not overwhelmed by a clip of the club appearing on QoS because I think hundreds of clubs could claim this, but still, it's no big deal.
  10. Citation required for April Fool's Joke.
  11. Perhaps consider pruning down the external links per WP:EL but, again, no big deal.

Feel free to strike these off or comment against them as and when you deal with them, and hopefully I'll add my support. Good luck. The Rambling Man 17:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding point 2; I decided to limit the lead to just information on the club's league-successes, it's movement between leagues and the local rivalry. The modern history section deals with the club's near-bankruptcy, near-relegation, the 2006 UEFA Cup run (the club's most impressive ever), the return of unionist-supported teams to the Brandywell for competitive games and notable momens from this season and last. While notable for the club, I don't feel it would be appropriate to include these issues in the lead. What do you think? I will work on cutting out as much of the trivial recent history as I can.
Oldelpaso has removed the April Fools' joke mention, along with the text on the QoS appearance and the Panel mug, so points 9 and 10 have been dealt with I think. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 18:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've deleted two external links already included in the article's footnotes, so I'll strike off point 11. That OK? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 19:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: First and foremost, this article is 68 KB long, a bit too long for an FA. Also, several sentences contain improvable structure. Also, it contains several grammar mistakes. Also, the introduction is too detailed and can be shortened, according to me. Universe=atom•Talk•Contributions• 18:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Technically speaking, the objection to the length isn't suprising - WP:SS suggests than no more than 50% beyond 30KB... Perhaps we need to work on better summarising... The Rambling Man 18:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not and was not too long. The prose size is currently a very modest 25KB, which actually makes it short in terms of many other FAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it is now shorter than other FAs, however when the original point was made, five days ago, the article was too long. Perhaps the pruning has gone too far. But I also agree that Universe=atom seems to pick on some rather unusual (perhaps not WP:FAR) requirements to support a FAC. Anyway, what's done is done, let's focus on what we have and how best to get it to FA status. The Rambling Man 21:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually if you see my comment below it was 26KB prose when Universe commented. Quadzilla99 01:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"...several grammar mistakes..." - it would be useful to point these out, after all we should be here to encourage articles to featured status, not just block them getting there... The Rambling Man 18:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To Universe=atom: Care to be more specific as to where the grammatical errors and structural problems lie? There are plenty of FAs with longer leads (see Buckingham Palace or the All Blacks, for example). The lead is only a few lines longer than the one in Chelsea F.C.. What do you think I could remove? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 18:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, just today, you supported a nomination with a lead of equivelent length to the lead in this article. See: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Building the World Trade Center. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 23:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Should the name of the club in Irish be included in bold text? Some, TG4 for example, would refer to the club by this name. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 20:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't worry about that right now, but if I had to make a choice, don't bother. Let's worry about the other comments first... The Rambling Man 20:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to use an example; the featured article on the Azerbaijani people has their Azeri and Persian names in bold. As an aside, it is 66KB — similar in length to this article. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 23:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've decided to follow that article on this but if there are any objections, it's not a major problem. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 02:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some questions about outstanding issues:
  1. What should be done with the quotes in the section on supporters?
  2. Is the lead OK the way I have it?
  3. Is the history section now fine that the length is within limits?
  4. Where exactly are these remaining grammatical/structural problems? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 23:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grammar Mistakes:
    • "Derry City Football Club (Irish: Cumann Peile Chathair Dhoire, IPA: [kʊmən̪ˠ pɛlʲə xahəɾʲ ɣɛɾʲə]) are an Irish football club based in Derry, Northern Ireland." (first sentence in article) The verb should be singular in form; even though club is a collective noun, it is still singular in form.
    • "The club, however, play in the FAI Premier Division, the top tier of the Republic of Ireland's FAI League of Ireland, and are the only participating club from Northern Ireland." (second sentence in article) Again, the verb should be singular in form; even though club is a collective noun, it is still singular in form.
    • "They play their home matches at the Brandywell Stadium and wear red and white in a vertically-striped pattern."" (third sentence of article) Are we talking about the club here or the players of the club? If the club is the antecedent of the pronoun they, the subject (they), should be singular in form. If players is the antecedent, some mention should be given about it.
    • "Others may refer to the club as the Red and White Army, or abbreviate the name to Derry or City." (fifth sentence of article) This sentence has two grammar mistakes. First of all, a comma should not be present between a the two parts of a compound verb. Second of all, if the helping verb may is present in the first of the two verbs, it should also be present in the second verb (before abbreviate).
  • These are only five grammar mistakes in the first five sentences in the entire article, in the first paragraph of the introduction. I think this lays a clear path for the entire article. If you want to know more, please let me know. Now, the structural mistakes:
    • Perhaps the "crests" section should be merged with the "Colours" section; after all, they both represent the club's outward displays, or whatever you call it.
    • Perhaps the "Supporters," "First-team squad," and "Managers" sections should be put adjacent each other because all three refer to people.
    • A sentence with flawed sentence structure: "The club, founded in 1928, once played in the Irish League — Northern Ireland's league — and won a league title in the 1964–65 season." (first sentence of second paragraph of introduction) Why is "Northern Ireland's league" there. That seems to signify that the Irish league is the same thing as the Northern Irish league (actually, I am not an expert at this field; so, I am not sure).
  • The lead, perhaps, is good as it is. Perhaps I was wrong when I said that it was too long. Universe=atom•Talk•Contributions• 15:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking the time to point out where you feel the errors lie. I made a conscious decision to use the word "club" as a collective noun/plural throughout the article. I understand that this is perfectly acceptable in what one might call "British English". Arsenal F.C., for example, sees the word used in the same way. I believe that American English speakers, however, use the word as a singular noun. I have a feeling there is an article on Wikipedia which deals with this but I'm not sure where it is exactly. I'll try and have a look for it. I've improved the grammar relating to your fourth point so I hope it's OK for me to strike that one out.
The reason I highlight that the Irish League is Northern Ireland's league is because Derry City now play in the League of Ireland, the league of the Republic of Ireland, even though they are based in Northern Ireland. I felt it might cause confusion if I did not distinguish that the two league's represent different jurisdictions. "Irish League" is the proper title of the league of Northern Ireland. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 16:38, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, I do not think that club, as a collective noun, is plural. After all, the word in itself refers to only the club. If we were the say that it performed something, say plays in a championship, we would say that the use plays, not plays, because the club, as a whole, played. If we said that "the club play," it would be wrong grammar; the subject would be singular and the verb would be plural. The subject and the predicate (the verb) have to agree in number. I do not think that British English and American English differ here, for it is a basic rule of grammar. If they do, by a slight chance, differ, please ignore this comment. Universe=atom•Talk•Contributions• 17:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This might help: Collective nouns#Metonymic merging of grammatical number. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 19:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Would it look tidier if I removed the sub-headings in the history section or should I maintain these to keep the section more inviting to read? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 02:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like it the way it is. Perhaps you need to poke a few people at WP:FOOTBALL to see if they'll come by and add their support? The Rambling Man 12:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I think that the article has definitely come a long way and the efforts of Danny Invincible should be duly noted. The article is informative, straight-forward and overall a good read. The amount of assiduous work that has gone into the page is inspiring and I think that it is definitely worthy of Featured Article Status. Ryannus 18:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All the points raised in the previous FAC (and on the talk page in the intervening period between that FAC and this one) have been resolved. Good work. Oldelpaso 21:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kevin McE

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An interesting read, but not what I would expect from an encyclopedic article. The tone in the intro (which is long) is journalistic rather than encyclopedic "...Jim Roddy fills the role of chief executive. Hugh McDaid is the current chairman who, with his board, has assigned the team's management to Pat Fenlon and his assistant, Anthony Gorman." John Hume is notable enough to merit a reference as to who he is. In the intro: "once played in the Irish league (Once? One match? When?)- Northern Ireland's League (I do not believe a possessive is appropriate here, nor later in "the Republic's, or the Republic of Ireland's...).

  • Did the IFA insist matches must be in Coleraine, or simply that they should not be in (London)Derry? Could the reader unfamiliar with the area be told how far apart these towns are?
  • Examples of non-encyclopedic, casual, language: "outfit", "welcomed by", "turmoil of the day" "devastated and feeling marginalised"(no citation to show that any individual felt so) "path has not always been smooth", "local famous faces", "on-field results worsened" (POV: the results got better for opposing teams), "Kenny blossommed positive results", "in as equally dramatic fashion", "in reverence to him (Billy Gillespie) and his time in Sheffield", etc.
  • "primary club": not a description of a level of football I have ever heard: might read as though it means U-11s!
  • "IFA claimed their ground was not up to standard": implicit criticism, therefore not NPOV. This more evident later in the same para The IFA...would rather have been represented by..."
  • "most teams' journey to the Brandywell was of little consequence"???? What does this mean?
  • "criteria points": demands explanation, especially if the number 830 is to mean anything.
  • "A native of Donegal": relevance unexplained: Derry is not in Donegal.
  • Long section on origins and symbols of the city's coat of arms should be in another article to which this is wikilinked: description of what is not on a badge is baffling.
  • Relevance of citing Bogside in describing where Brandywell is will not be clear to many: reference to Meenan Park, which has no wikilink, leaves readers none the wiser.
  • Repetition of same confusion of not being allowed to play at Brandywell = being forced to play in Coleraine: why was there no other alternative?
  • Had Archie McLeod come "over from the Highlands"? When I was last in Partick, it was not very mountainous.
  • The "Supporters" section in particular is partisan, rather than factual in tone, with two long glowing quotes.

So I'm afraid that I would have to classify this one as being still a long way from FA readiness. Kevin McE 23:03, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's a spanner in the works. ;) Anyway, thanks for taking the time to review the article. I'll try and deal with your points in your order as best I can.
  • Are you suggesting that a note be included about Hume's importance in the lead? Mention is given to the fact that he was an MEP for Foyle later in the modern history section.
  • "Once" has been changed to "initially" by Oldelpaso. I've also edited the line mentioning Hume, Roddy and McDaid, et cetera. I'll see what I can do about the rest of the "journalistic", "casual" language.
  • Do you not believe that by distinguishing the league's between Northern Ireland and the Republic, it might help prevent confusion between them for readers who are new to the topic? After all, their full titles ("Irish League" and "League of Ireland") give no indication as to within which jurisdiction they each operate. I've commonly come across individuals and websites (including Sky Sports) referring to the League of Ireland as the Irish League, for example.
  • The distance between Coleraine and Derry is mentioned later in the article. Is the lead a good place for it? As to whether or not Derry or the IFA chose Coleraine and whether there was an alernative available, I'm not sure. I'm in the process of finding that out. I can only assume it was the nearest ground to Derry considered to be of a high enough standard to host visiting teams and their fans (especially those of the unionist tradition) safely.
  • Regarding the use of "devastated and marginalised", it refers to the club's members. And there is a citation for this (see Mahon, for example). Also, John Hume and Martin McGuinness mention feelings of marginalisation/victimisation.
  • By "primary club", I mean the city's main or largest club, in the same way that, say, F.C. Barcelona would undoubtedly be Barcelona's primary club despite Espanyol also playing in the city. I think that's clear enough and makes sense. Would you prefer I used another synomyn instead?
  • I'm not sure what your problem is with the assertion that the IFA claimed the Brandywell was not up to standard. It has a citation and was given as the reason Derry would not be permitted to play the second leg there. Also, Cronin, in dealing with the IFA, states bluntly, "Catholic clubs were unwanted by the IFA and the majority of senior clubs".
  • "Most teams journey ... was of little consequence" means that the games were not significant affairs and passed off without major event or incident in comparison to the violence which later spilled over from the Troubles.
  • Footnote 47 expands on the criteria used to determine membership of the FAI Premier Division for 2007. It also provides a wikilink.
  • The Brandywell area is often twinned with the Bogside. They are side-by-side and both are seen as working-class, republican strongholds. As the Bogside is wikilinked, it might help readers grasp a better understanding of the locality surrounding the stadium. Perhaps I should add "just south-west of the Bogside"? I don't know much about Meenan Park myself. Having just done an online search, it seems to be either a public park (as one might guess) or a stretch of land situated in the Bogside. Numerous pages relating to the events of Bloody Sunday appear, but I don't think it would be notable enough to have its own article.
  • I feel it is worth including the origins and a description of the city's coat of arms. After all, it did appear on club parafernalia.
  • I've gotten rid of "the Highlands". I've also added "nearby" to the mention of Donegal for Gillespie, as Donegal is a neighbouring county of Derry.
  • The support section is littered with references for all claims. The quotes are important in indicating the club's reliance on or strong connection with the local community, and vice versa.
I hope that satisifies some of your points. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 09:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On the basis that it is better to try to improve than to criticise, I have started addressing some of the issues I raised.
  • The difference between the Irish League and the League of Ireland is indeed important: it was the use of a possessive as an adjective that jarred with me, (no-one would talk about England's or Spain's league) and I have attemped paraphrases.
  • John Hume described: while Mssrs Roddy and McDaid may be fine men, their names will not mean anything to readers who are not already knowledgeable about the club, and so I see little reason to retain them in the intro.
  • Rephrase to say that the restriction was that they could not play at Brandywell, and present the fact that games were at Coleraine.
  • "claimed" the ground was not up to standard is to present it as a haughty opinion: I have changed it to "declared", which acknowledges that they had some authority in the matter, although whether that authority was wielded justly is open to debate. Similarly, an encyclopedia can say that many people (Cronin is clearly an example" believed that the IFA would have preferred protestant representation, but unless the IFA say so themselves, it is a speculative accusation. I hope my rephrasing gets around that.
  • Given that Derry won the league in '64/5, at least some of the matches must have been significant: I have adjusted the "of little consequence" to refer to a lack of confrontation.
  • Again: movement from Brandywell was forced: Coleraine was a choice (maybe only as the least bad option, but it was not forced upon them). I believe it suffices to say that the motion to return was voted down: again, unless the reasons are formally recorded by the Irish League, and not simply by contemporary commentators, it is speculative (even if such speculation is confident) to ascribe a reason.
  • Supporters may have felt devastated and marginalised: I'd be amazed if they didn't. But an encyclopedia should not attribute emotions to a club.
  • There may have been little realistic option, but that is not the same as "no option", so rephrased.
I have made a number of minor copy edits as well, as far as the end of the "Modern highs and lows" section. I did not want to come accross as negatively as I perhaps did yesterday, and I was glad to see that many of the issues I raised have been taken up by other editors. It is a fascinating article, and a truly unique club, which would make an article that should come to wider attention as a featured article, but I do think that the matters I raised were genuine ones about the encyclopedic nature of the article. I still have reservations about the article, and like Qwghlm, particularly about the "Supporters" section, but it's about time I got to bed. Kevin McE 00:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


A knowledgable contributor to Derry City Chat informs me that in September 1971 there was no other ground suitable in Derry to host Irish League games. He explained that nearby Limavady was an option, but that the club there and many in the local population were not keen. They also looked into playing at Finn Park in Ballybofey, but the IFA would not agree to it (presumably because Ballybofey was in the Republic of Ireland). Other than that, Coleraine was the nearest viable option. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 10:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This article is by and large excellent, especially the neutral description of the political context, but still not quite FA status. For one thing, there are too many irrelevant asides in the History relegated to the footnotes, when they should be excised outright - they add little to the article, and it's not as if they cannot be included in the detailed History of Derry City F.C. article instead. The recentism should be trimmed a bit by merging the last two paragraphs of the History section into one. The referencing system is a mess - it makes editing very hard. References should not be broken into subsections, and they should use {{cite web}} and {{cite news}} consistently throughout rather than hard-coded formatting - which means you can also add linebreaks to make the wikicode easier to edit (as I have done in Arsenal F.C.)

My biggest bugbear however is the prose in the Supporters section - it smacks a little of hubris and I think neither quote should be included in as full a main one. Some of the assertions look odd - "bus-loads" is not encyclopaedic (and to be honest, most clubs can claim the same) and "wall of sound" makes little sense in a football context. The second paragraph's claim of warmth and community spirit is uncited and probably unverifiable POV.

I would be bold and make changes myself, but the complexity of the wikicode and the lack of standard templates makes it very hard to edit right now. Qwghlm 10:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Supplemental: As a pointer, this is the kind of edit you need to be doing to trim the footnotes. At the very least it brings the article size down a bit. Qwghlm 10:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whoah, whoah hold off. Citation templates are not required by any guideline in this entire enycylopedia. Their use is entirely optional. Quadzilla99 08:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to take a short break from any major editing until May is out as I have university exams fast approaching. However, I will return then, whether this nomination fails or succeeds, to deal with outstanding issues and continue any necessary work on the article. Thanks to all for the help. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 14:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've had a read through have a few comments:
  • I have a slight problem with the mention of Hume in the lead. It's not part of an article summary, and is placed seemingly because there is not better place for it. Is there anywhere you could move it?
  • I think " Nationalists refer to the city as "Derry", while unionists often term it "Londonderry".[2] At the time, however, the dispute was not as politicised as it is today." would be better suited to a note. However, I know that if you did that the paragraph wouldn't flow particularly well - albeit it doesn't now.
  • "The founders decided not to use the name of the city's previous primary club, Derry Celtic, to be more inclusive to football fans in the city.[3][4]" doesn't make sense, I have no clue why that's a more inclusive name, although the ref gives the reason. Perhaps some explanation?
  • "despite the club's conversion to part-time status after the abolishment of the maximum wage in 1961." A wiki-link to maximum wage, if there's an appropriate article, might be quite helpful.
  • "The colours were identical to Aston Villa's, historically one of England's most successful clubs,[3]" is not mentioned in the source as far as I can see? Is it necessary, in any case?
  • "The club's most capped player with 25 for Ireland,[38]" I see what you're doing, but it would be better to have "appearances" after 25
  • "The colours were associated with Wolverhampton Wanderers,[40] a major force in English football during the 1950s,[41] but were not as successful for Derry as they had been for Wolverhampton Wanderers and were dropped. " The ref you have there doesn't state anything about a Derry decision to imitate Wolverhampton, even if it's a likelihood. Again, is it relevant?
  • "it was highlighted that Archie McLeod, the grandfather of David Tennant, the tenth Doctor Who, was a Derry City player." Tennant's the tenth Doctor, not the tenth Doctor Who. That's the name of the programme.
  • I don't like how you've got a block quote from Hume next to a conventionally written quote from the captain.
An excellent article though, some really good citations. Should a fair bit of the above get resolved, I'll support. HornetMike 01:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've dealt with a few more of the issues raised. About the concerns over the first paragraph in the history section; any idea on how I should re-structure or re-word it? Just to explain the reason why the club decided against using "Celtic" in their name; using the word may have proved controversial with Protestants in the city as it would have been perceived as the club expressing a strong Irish nationalist identity (See Celtic, Belfast Celtic or Donegal Celtic, for example. These clubs are or were all strongly associated with the Irish Catholic or nationalist community.). Regardless, Derry did eventually become strongly associated with the nationalist community, but it wasn't a self-enforced link. "City" was a much more neutral and inclusive title. I thought that might be self-explanatory. Maybe not. Should I expand on this? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 20:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It looks fine now, and I don't think you need to expand anymore. Good work, all my issues resolved. HornetMike 00:05, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Managers section is quite long. Might wat to make a seperate managers page and cut the bit on the main page down to notable managers (i.e. ones which won trophies) SenorKristobbal 12:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I worry that might give a disjointed appearance, so I have instead split the box into two rows. What do you think of that? Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 15:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've now split it into three rows to see how it looks. It does spread the information across the page more rather than having a long list adding quite a bit of length to the page, but maybe you won't like it. Anyway, feel free to give an opinion. Danny InvincibleTalk|Edits 15:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Much neater. Can't see any other problems its a nice article. SenorKristobbal 18:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. After reading through the article, I can't see any problems that haven't already been mentioned. There was one instance of "fanbase" that should be "fan-base" (which I've fixed). Well done, and good work. CloudNine 16:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Re-confirming Support - I think that the article has certainly reached Featured Article status. Ryannus 09:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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