Talk:Hazarajat

copyvio reverted

I have reverted to February 2006 to remove a copyvio cut-and-paste from http://www.geocities.com/manji_azra/Hazarajat.html. There may be some bits that were added on subsequently that were not modifications of the copyvio text, if someone wants to search the history, but getting rid of the copyright violation takes precedence. - BanyanTree 01:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Same text has been incorporated and removed again. – Whpq 21:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC) please translate this to persian thanks.

Article to be deleted

Everything in this article is false, there is no officially named place in Afghanistan that is called Hazarajat. This article is stupid which is made by Hazara nationalists.--Panjshiri-Tajik (talk) 01:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the speedy tag and am sending this to AfD because I think this is too contentious a matter not to warrant some discussion by the Wikipedia community. I take no position, just want to see the right thing done, that's all. Accounting4Taste:talk 01:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Since the place is verifiably real, I will add some basic sources and apply some minor cleanup. Some of the numbers in the infobox seem inflated compared to neutral 3rd party sources, but the article is no hoax. • Gene93k (talk) 07:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Afghanistan's total population is approximately 30 million, Pashtuns being 42%, Tajik (27%), Hazara (9%), Uzbek (9%), Aimak (4%), Turkmen (3%), Baluch (4%) and other small groups (4%). 9% of 30 million is not 9 million but less than 3 million. All the Hazaras of Afghanistan (which is 9% of the total population of Afghanistan) do not live in this mountainous region called by them as Hazarajat, many of them also live OUTSIDE of Hazarajat, in non-Hazara cities such as Kabul, Mazari Sharif, Herat, Kandahar, etc. So the maximum number is 2.5 million which I placed, but it may be even less than that. Britannica is not reliable source, anyone can change the info there.--Panjshiri-Tajik (talk) 14:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Panjshiri-Tajik said: "Britannica is not reliable source, anyone can change the info there." It is very difficult to change the text of the 1911 Encyc. Britannica, it was printed. In addition to the electronic versions available on the web, some of us have printed copies. --Bejnar (talk) 04:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If Panjshiri-Tajik doesn't like the Encyclopedia Britannica, how does she/he feel about the Encyclopedia Iranica which has an article on Hazaúrajaút at: "Historical Geography of Hazaúrajaút"? --Bejnar (talk) 21:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

November 28, 2007 revert

Reverting all changes by sock-puppet Panjshiri-Tajik also brought back the sourcing problems for the removed restored content. The statements in this article need to cite neutral and WP:RELIABLE third-party sources. • Gene93k (talk) 08:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

December 7, 2007 revert

I just reverted changes by anonymous user 122.148.70.11, which restored copyvio of The mother land Hazarajat page [1]. • Gene93k (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverting inappropriate move to "Hazarastan"

Another editor recently moved this entire page to Hazarastan with no discussion whatsoever. First off, it's pretty inappropriate to move the article without even floating the idea on the Talk page. Secondly, the term "Hazarajat" has around 10,000 gBooks hits, "Hazaristan" some 312, and "Hazarastan" about 10. So clearly common usage in English favours the term "Hazarajat" for this reason.

The other editor cited as motive the fact that the term "Hazarajat" has negative implications in Afghanistan, and is associated with stereotypes of the Hazara as poor and uneducated. While that may be the case, it doesn't outweight the fact that "Hazarajat" is the common English term. Further, that area does truly have significant development and economic problems, so there's not point in trying to whitewash that away with a name-change. The term "Appalachian" has a lot of negative associations in English, but we don't suddenly start calling the area something different just because it has problems.

Reverting back to "Hazarajat", and would ask that other editors keep an eye out for folks inserting Hazara nationalist viewpoints into what is probably one of the more popular articles on Hazara issues on WP. MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminding me of the problems, exactly that is the case that I have moved the articles and I am not angry for the revert action you did on this article but happy to remind me. I will expand the articles but will not change it again, I ask you User: MathewVanitas to keep eye on hazara articles because there are some elements which is constantly does not want to see Hazara articles to be expanded. Thanks Ehussain (talk) 20:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

No problem, that's why we can talk it out on the Talk page. I definitely agree that it's important to make sure anti-Hazara editors don't make inaccurate or uncited additions to Hazara articles, but it is equally necessary that pro-Hazara editors not add uncited or unsubstantiated material out of a misguided desire to promote the Hazara cause. The best course for everyone is to present the topic neutrally with citations to reputable academic sources. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:02, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

A simple understanding of Afghan Dari reveals the insulting nature of the name Hazarajat - there are three suffixes used to create a plural in Afghan Dari, 1) ها or ha - can be used for all words; 2) ان or an - used only for animate things; and 3) جات or jat - used only for inanimate objects. I recognize that Hazarajat does have wide usage and should be retained - but users should be informed in some way that the term Hazarajat is offensive to some Hazara. It is true that I do not have an academic citation for the offensive nature of the term - what I have is conversations with Hazara in Afghanistan that verify the perception.DavisGL (talk) 03:49, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

That's fine, but again it needs to be something documented that we can cite. There's a reason Wikipedia isn't based on Original Research (WP:OR); we can't just take anonymous editors at their word as to academic points. If you have any reliable footnote stating that Hazarajat is derogatory, by all means include it in an etymology section, but not until there's some cite for it. Conversing with people and coming to a conclusion is pretty much the definition of OR. That said, if you're compiling data and get your findings published in a reputable academic or journalistic publication, then I'd be happy to footnote to that. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I do understand your point about original research and the need for citation, at the same time I would ask whether it would require an academic citation to say that when Jesse Jackson referred to NYC as "Hymietown"(sp?) it was an offensive reference. Isn't some language self-evident? I can see that an explanation of why a phrase in a foreign language is offensive would be in order as well. DavisGL (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The -stan suffix is common in a familiar and accepted part of the English language. It is used in the names of nation-states such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Uzbekistan. Similarly it is used to note regions that are not independent states such as Pashtunistan. Lacking a consensus from the Hazara community, Hazarastan seems to be a more logical name for the English language page about this region than Hazarajat.500Afs (talk) 13:31, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

You do have a point but the issue is the history where the region has always been reffered to as Hazarajat. I believe, in recent years some people (Hazara nationalists) have raised the issue, where they prefer it to be called as Hazarastan. The region is refered as Hazarajat in books and history, only in recent years few nationalist writers have referred to region as Hazarastan which can not be the reason to change the name of the region or just because few people want it so. Hazara Birar ^(Talk) 17:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Delete Tags

I believe enough info and references are provided for the article, therefore, the tags should be deleted. I don't how does removing tags work? anybody?

I believe a lot more work is still needed on the article, i m going to double check its relevancy, grammar, references etc as soon as possible, there is one thing else, I don't know if i have put the topics in right order, please change if you think it has to be in a different order.

Please rate the article when you read it!

One last thing, I will adding a wiki table, which will list the provinces and districts that are part of Hazarajat, as a whole or partly. any suggestion talk to me!

Hazara-Birar (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed the tag, provided enough references.Hazara-Birar (talk) 12:30, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't looked at this article in a while, but am very pleased to see that it has substantially improved in layout, footnoting, etc. over the last few years. Props to those who've put in the effort to make this article, fundamental to an understanding of Afghanistan and of the Hazara people, increasingly accurate, organised, and credible. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for appreciation. We used to have many active Wikipedians working on these articles but I don't see them around much :( Thanks on their behalf as well :) Hazara Birar ^(Talk) 07:23, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Bamian valley.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Map of Hazarajat

User:Gharjistan replaced the map with a map from 1890]] without a talk. Please discuss it first before replacing it.

I believe, the map that shows current speculated borders of Hazarajat should be there no old maps. Old maps can be part of articles but not the infobox image. Thanks Hazara Birar ^(Talk) 11:59, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Restoring content

There were a number of spots where the text did not make very much sense. On investigating the history, it seemed like the primary culprit was a series of edits in April 2020 by Idrees Pazhwak with a very clear pro-Pashtun, anti-Hazara bent (to the point of literally substituting Pashtuns for Hazara in discussing the activities of the Boundary Commission). Much of the original text was decently sourced and the edits clearly unjustified, so I did my best to restore content that has been lost. I realize the ethnic dynamics of the region are complex and undoubtedly still disputable, so I'm sure additional improvement and nuance would be welcome. --Michael Snow (talk) 19:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Hazarajat VS Hazarastan (Hazaristan)

The name Hazaristan has no notable reference. The only place I have heard and seen is the Hazara nationalist websites and discussions. I am suggesting to have Hazaristan removed and have a section, maybe 'other names' or something similar where we can mention Hazaristan. Please provide suggestions and feedback. Thanks Hazara Birar ^(Talk) 07:27, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Any inputs would be appreciated. Hazara Birar ^(Talk) 04:32, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Why Hazarajat is incorrect

For those of you who have constantly been against changing this page from Hazarajat to Hazaristan, I say, you are uninformed.

Do you even know from when this region in Afghanistan started to be called Hazarajat?

Do you know what it was called before?

Do you even understand why more and more Hazara people in this day and age have started to say Hazaristan and stopped saying Hazarajat?

This part is not correct --> "Hazarajat" is a compound of "Hazara" and the Dari suffix "jat", which is used to make words associated with land in the south, central and west Asia.

Wait... What? "Jat" is a Dari suffix used to make words associated with land in the south, central and west Asia? What the hell are you talking about...!? "Jat" is used in words like for example instead of saying vegetable you say multiple vegetables, then you say in Dari "sabsi-jat". Sabsi = vegetable. Sabsi-jat = vegetables. Do you understand where I am going with this point? Or should I just keep on going and giving example after example on the use of "Jat" in Dari...!?

Hazarajat was Hazaristan. Hazaristan changed to Hazarajat due to Abdur Rahman Khan claiming that Hazaristan (which literally means Land of Hazaras) is a wrong term for the geography because there are not so many Hazaras living in the region. There are a few. Hazaristan therefor became Hazarajat. Since then in every historybook regarding Afghanistan and Hazaras, whenever the region has been brought up or mentioned it has been used as the Hazarajat term. Abdur Rahman Khan made sure of this change taking place.

More and more Hazaras including a lot of Hazara historians feel that Hazarajat in actuality is an indirect insult to the Hazara people.

I will later on come back and update you with links to references that will show and prove that Hazarajat is in fact incorrect and that it has been, is, will and should be Hazaristan. Siggs savache (talk) 07:40, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

In Wikipedia we follow WP:RS, not the personal analysis/opinion of users. See also WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:COMMONNAME. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:28, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

A reliable source claims that it is Hazaristan.--175.106.53.155 (talk) 04:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The source simply says “Hazaristan”, that doesn’t change anything. No one is denying that “Hazaristan” is also used in WP:RS. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@175.106.53.155: The name of the article should always be first, not the name you personally prefer. Can you please revert yourself and read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:COMMONNAME? --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Nvm, it's a sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/HazaraHistorian. I'll make the SPI in a bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

References

The flag

To all of the Hazara historians on Wikipedia and anybody that believes that Hazarajat has a flag, don’t add a flag. Hazarajat has no official flag so we can not add a flag to it, or you either keep the new Afghan flag from 2021 which is your only choice.

Those Hazara historians should not add the unsourced blue-white-yellow tricolor flag, or I can say Chile’s first flag (Patria Vieja) to resemble this part of region in Afghanistan and for their own ethnic group, where Hazara nationalists had started this online movement on TikTok recently which isn’t recognized in any part of the world. Nobody recognizes this flag besides historians and vexillologists who know that this was Chile’s first flag but it had gone to waste, and nobody uses that same flag anymore. Shinwari93 (talk) 16:11, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran's Hazarajat 01:27, 25 May 2024 edit

@User:HistoryofIran

In this edit, you removed the sourced "The Arab geographer Maqdesi (c. 945/946 – 991) named Hazarajat as "Gharjistan" or "Gharj Al-Shar" ("Gharj" meaning "mountain") area ruled by chiefs."

Since this was in the article for years, and AFAIK not related to the user Bravehm mentioned in the revision justification text, could you elaborate on the reason for removal?

I do agree that it's not in "Ḥamd-Allah Mostawfi, Nozhat al-qolub, tr. Guy Le Strange, London 1919.", but it could be in the other source S. A. Mousavi, The Hazaras of Afghanistan. Could you save me the trouble of looking through it, by confirming you did and did not find it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Bravehm&diff=prev&oldid=1225531903

And do you know what's the relation between Gharchistan and Hazaristan then? They seem to be at least near.

Thank you for your time. RustyRapier (talk) 13:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran RustyRapier (talk) 08:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello RustyRapier. None of the sources mention al-Maqdesi using the name "Hazarajat" [2]. Which makes sense chronologically, since the word "Hazara" first appears in the 16th-century. The only relation I know is that they're indeed close, which Mousavi does mention. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you!

Keep up the good work. RustyRapier (talk) 11:01, 7 October 2024 (UTC)