Talk:The Chora

Untitled

Nice page. --Bhadani 06:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Image request

Resolved

Hiya, I got a tip that among the many images at Chora, that there is a rare portrait of Maria Despina Palaiologos (perhaps labeled as "Melanina"). Is there anyone here familiar enough with the images, that you could pick out, or acquire, this one? It would be a great addition to her article.  :) --Elonka 06:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it is on Commons. Johnbod (talk) 13:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a black and white photograph of the portrait in the recent exhibition catalogue Byzantium: Faith and Power (1261-1557), ed. Helen C. Evans (Metropolitan Museum of Art: New York, 2004), p. 21. She is represented wearing the black habit of an Orthodox nun and kneeling before Christ in the scene known as the Deesis. The inscription pretty clearly says, "...Palaeologe Lady of the Mongols Melane the Nun." There are thousands of pictures of the Chora or Kariye Camii at various photo dumps. Perhaps you can find someone willing to upload theirs. Check these out: lower right, washed out. Aramgar (talk) 04:51, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The claim that that mosaic indeed depicts the despina Maria Palaiologos is made strongly by this source: Paul A. Underwood, "Notes on the Work of the Byzantine Institute in Istanbul: 1955-1956", Dumbarton Oaks Papers, Vol. 12, (1958), pp. 269-287.[1]. The article refers to another study by the same author I don't have access to. By the way, it is "(nun) Melania", not "Melanina". Both of the photos at flickr are tagged as "public", and the second is clearly better for the purpose of illustrating an article about her – although it is a pity the inscription is cut off (leaving only ΜΟΝΑ, the first two syllables of μοναχή "nun"). When downloading, make sure to select the large size.  --Lambiam 07:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

They're tagged as public, but they're also "all rights reserved". We might be able to use one as "fair use", but to get it into the Commons, we'd need something that was cc-by-sa or "some rights reserved".[2] So we need either some other image, or perhaps someone with an active flickr account would like to contact the accountholders and ask them to change the licensing? --Elonka 07:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Got some permission from Flickr photographers, so I transferred some images over, and we're good. :) So I am marking this thread as resolved. To see the images, check commons:Category:Deesis mosaic (Chora Church). --Elonka 17:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I also took a large amounts of pictures and they are on the Commons, all arranged in order. Gryffindor 18:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, beautiful work. I very much enjoyed looking through the categories that you set up.  :) --Elonka 19:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

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Article needs updating

The article needs updating. It has been a museum for the past few decades and was recently converted to a mosque so the page may need to be moved as well.VR _talk 17:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: what will happen to Chora's historic mosaics and other Christian-oriented elements now that it is supposedly going to be converted into a mosque? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 17:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Name

Considering that the building served for centuries as a mosque and that it is today again a mosque, isn't the title of the article misleading since it is not its common name and nor a church? Ahmet Q. (talk) 09:44, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I noticed also this in the past, and the answer was that the most used name of the building in English is Chora. Anglophone sources deal mainly with its byzantine past, since the building is notable above all for its mosaics and frescoes. Alex2006 (talk) 10:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Maybe moving the article to Chora Mosque would be more appropriate as a title? Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that none names the building as you propose. The alternatives are either Chora Church or Kariye Mosque. My preference would go to Kariye Mosque (I wrote a lot of articles about kilise camiler in Istanbul, and I prefer the native names) but, as I wrote above, Chora is much more used in English, and this is a compelling reason. You could start a request for renaming and see what the other users say. Maybe Chora (Istanbul) could have some chance. Alex2006 (talk) 10:26, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Can we have more than one option in a move request? Because in my understanding, in a move request we have to choose one single article name from which the previous name will be changed to or not. If we can have more options, we could ask users to choose directly between the options "Kariye Mosque" and "Chora (Istanbul)" for example. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that this is possible. The move process is described here. BTW, there is another building in Istanbul with the same "problem" as Chora, the Pammakaristos Church (now Fethiye Camii), which was also for some time a museum but was converted back in a mosque many years ago. Only the parekklesion, which is a separate building, remained a museum. Alex2006 (talk) 16:33, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• I reverted an undiscussed move to Kariye Mosque, a mangled Turkish/English name. As the discussion above shows I think, the WP:COMMONNAME in English is still Chora Church, and likely to remain so. Johnbod (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

However, it is called Chora Mosque by the locals and people who pray in the place of worship. They happen to be Muslims today, as has been for centuries. Let us respect facts on the ground please. WP:COMMONNAME does not apply in this case either. 46.31.112.213 (talk) 12:18, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't? Johnbod (talk) 13:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The article name was neutral as "The Chora". It is officially a mosque now. The Hagia Sofia is also a mosque and is claimed to still be a church by some Orthodox Greeks so the name was changed to "Hagia Sophia" to reflect a neutral tone. Makes sense but the same standard can and should be applied here then. I will take the initiative to move it. If you oppose my compromising move, please explain yourself with a similar logical reasoning. Thank you. Wikimicky1 (talk) 06:39, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

No, the official name is Kariye Mosque. Thus the article needs to reflect its official name of Kariye Mosque. Get over it. It’s not a church anymore! 88.229.200.98 (talk) 10:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

But the WP:COMMONAME in English is Chora. Kariye Mosque is in thwe first sentence and redirects here. Frankly no one is interested in the mosque as a mosque, only in the Byzantine heritage. Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Reconversion to mosque

Hi, was it reconverted to a mosque on orders of President Erdogan or the Turkish Council of State? There are conflicting narrations on the event, both with citations. 176.55.164.172 (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

There are also conflicts on the reason for the conversions. 46.31.112.213 (talk) 12:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Already noted in the article and given due (WP:UNDUE) weight. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

The common name is Chora Church, the same way the Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba still has the name mosque, despite being a christian temple for hundreds of years. I completely undertand that Islam commands the erradication of anybody or anything that is not muslim, but it is too soon to demand this outside of Turkey.Lambrusquiño (talk) 23:06, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Lambrusquiño, your comments are unacceptable. You might be confusing Islam with your religion, whatever it is. Since the Chora is currently and OFFICIALLY being used as a mosque, and to avoid antagonizing some people, I suggest the name be changed to "The Chora". I can take the initiative and make the necessary name change. Please discuss here if it is not a feasible solution. Ifus1071 (talk) 11:21, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

He’s contradicting himself because the Kariye Mosque still preserves Orthodox Christian mosaics and frescos! And who preserved them? Muslims, just like they did in most areas they conquered or were a cause for conversion. 85.100.66.173 (talk) 02:16, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

In response to your eradication claims, see this article about what was done to Ottoman Turks during those hard times. Ifus1071 (talk) 11:34, 17 April 2023 (UTC)