Talk:Ragging

Abuse

Can you please place this article on ragging in the section called 'abuse'? I created this page some days ago. thanks !!!!! sachin

Done! rohith 17:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Major Help Needed

This article needs a lot of help, especially in the NPOV area. Firstly, all the sources come from some sort of "anti-ragging" group, which is clearly reflected in the persuasive tone of the article. Secondly, it seems the article should be modified to a larger, worldwide view. Currently, it looks like it's primarily Indian-influenced. 67.142.130.38 10:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)JSto

Why is the Supreme Court definition not appearing in full?

supreme court definition

Why is the Supreme Court definition not appearing in full?

Unverified Claims?

This article cites references to media reports, court orders and research reports. What else is required to remove the "unverified claims" tag?

Mohrahit 16:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The article does not cite the claims in a way that incontrovertibly verifies them - there are swathes of unverified claims, synthesis & original research. I'm cleaning as I go. - Tiswas^(t) 10:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Misuse for site promotion

This article seems to be (mis)used by some group or organization. Most of the references and links are directed to one particular website and its subpages - www.noragging.com/

Most likely reason - site promtion & increasing their site ranking.

The links are being replaced very fast, likely by the group, as they are being removed.

It seems personal ideas, thoughts and concepts have been attempted to be inserted in the encyclopedia. The statistics and other things mentioned in the article (likely from their own homepage) appear to be invalid.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.194.88 (talk)

Fagging

Not at all the same. Fagging in the UK is being a servant (akin to a batman) to a more senior student. It may well involve abuse, but it's not the same as hazing or ragging, which is entirely for the purpose of abuse. Gordonofcartoon 19:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I removed the 'also known as fagging' part from the first line, and added a line to the History section which attempts to outline the link between them. It could use some better explanation and references, however. Terraxos 05:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I read this article thinking it was entirely describing "fagging". If it is something different, the lead sentence "Ragging has a long history, and has been highlighted in literature (e.g., in Britain, Tom Brown's Schooldays" seems somewhat misplaced. Ros0709 (talk) 00:34, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Cuckoo Position?

What on earth does that mean? The only reference Google finds to this term is this Wikipedia article, suggesting it is not a very well-known term. 217.155.138.250 (talk) 14:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Answer to "Cuckoo Position?"

Google certainly finds more than one, rather many references. These include this one as well as the websites of several Anti Ragging Groups and of an Anti Ragging NGO (non profit).

It also lists countless news items (Indian) for "ragging", which clearly proves the severity of ragging in India.

You may try Google India http://www.google.co.in/

"Ragging" is a widely known term and is known to EVERY Indian who has entered a college in some time during his/her life. It means several millions of people.

But it is a fact the Anti Ragging Movement is in its infancy in India. --Dr.Che (talk) 02:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Indian name for "bullying"?

Is "ragging" the Indian-English term for "bullying"? That is the impression I get from the article.

Perhaps it can be merged into that article? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

No, ragging is different from bullying in the following ways: 1. Bullying usually involves a single perpetrator and a single victim, whereas ragging almost always involves a group of perpetrators and a group of victims. 2. Ragging is recognised as a crime and is punishable(atleast in India) whereas bullying is not a crime (as in US or UK laws) and usually goes unpunished. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vbnjkl (talk • contribs) 09:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Answer to Indian name for "bullying"?

Yes, it is almost so. It is an evil practice "ritualized" in many institutions.

--Dr.Che (talk) 02:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge Suggestion

Well, I don't think merging the article Ragging in Sri Lanka into Ragging is necessary because it reflects some unique features of Sri Lankan ragging. But I think you could clearly develop the article Ragging because it lacks a worldwide view on the subject as well as some other essential sections. But merging the above specified article is not a solution to that! Astronomyinertia (talk) 06:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It lacks world-wide coverage because it is a term unique to India and Sri Lanka. No sources have been provided that suggest otherwise. Both Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka duplicate most of this article and have massive WP:POV and WP:RS problems as you can see from this and their talk pages. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 23:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the term Ragging seems to be unique to India and Sri Lanka although it's method of conduct is not exactly the same. The nature of each country's anti-ragging movements are entirely different. Then there are important cases of ragging related incidents in both countries. And the sources suggest that Ragging is more politicized in Sri Lanka with respect to India. So does it not imply that two seperate articles are necessary here? I'll try to work on the WP:POV problems of Ragging in India article. It is normal to be there some POV problems as most sources come from anti-ragging movements. But since there are no governmental or non governmental anti-ragging movements in Sri Lanka, the sources are news paper aticles, most of the time, which I think, are reliable. Do you see any POV problems in that article?Astronomyinertia (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, the term isn't unique to India and Sri Lanka, at least not historically - the term was quite commonly used in the UK in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to describe just this kind of thing, usually in an academic or military environment - mainly in the universities and in the more "fashionable" Army regiments. That said, it's mostly passed out of use in the West, replaced either by "hazing" or just simply "bullying", dependent on context. Shimgray | talk | 12:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Prove it. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 18:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Certainly. Have some examples from the OED; I've selected the relevant ones for the period -

1. The action or practice of scolding, teasing, or boisterously making fun of someone; an instance of this.

• 1893. Daily News 25 Sept. 5/3 Commemoration Week exercises at Oxford furnished ... the most audacious examples of ‘ragging’.

2. The action or practice of ritually humiliating new army recruits or university students by physical or verbal bullying; = hazing n. 3. [Now chiefly S. Asian.]

• 1903. Times 27 Jan. 10/4 The staff officers in Pallmall are wrestling with the latest case of ‘ragging’.
• 1917. R. Kipling Bk. of Words (1928) 147 I'm not defending ragging—I've known cases where everyone who took part in it ought to have been R.T.U.
• 1932. Daily Telegraph 8 Oct. 12/4 Ragging in the army, such as we have at home (this was said just after one of the so-called ‘ragging scandals’ in the Guards) would be impossible here.

As noted, now "chiefly South Asian", but there was certainly usage of it elsewhere around a century ago, describing quite similar behaviour. (There seem to have been quite a spate of "ragging scandals" in 1902-1906 - I've found at least three so far. One more thing to write an article on, I suppose...) Shimgray | talk | 19:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

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Merger proposal

I propose that Ragging be merged into Hazing. I think that the content in the Ragging article can easily be explained in the context of Hazing, and the Hazing article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Ragging will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. AtlasDuane (talk) 16:11, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

They appear similar, though ragging seems an on-going process between senior and junior students whereas hazing is more strictly an initiation, ie a once-only process per person, and more ritualized. They are both types of school bullying, but I suspect better as separate articles. So mildy against merging. Batternut (talk) 09:10, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I've merged it, as they are one and the same. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

@AtlasDuane:, @Batternut:, @Spacecowboy420:, @Obi2canibe: I don't believe Ragging, Ragging in India, or Ragging in Sri Lanka should be merged with Hazing. The terms have similar meanings but different histories, both going back over a century. The term "ragging," as already noted by Shimgray (@Andrew Gray:) in a similar merger proposal above, was used for sadistic rituals in the British military training schools and colleges. It has been used in Kipling for such practice in Britain, although the term is no longer used much in the UK. The use in South Asia has that provenance. No one in South Asia knows this meaning of "hazing," just as no one in America knows this specialist meaning of "ragging." If you want to create a new page, such as Ritual verbal and physical humiliation of new army recruits and university students and include both Hazing and Ragging in it, that would be fine, but I see little sense in redirecting "ragging" to "hazing". Accordingly, I have removed the redirect of Ragging to Hazing. Had it been a redirect, the OED would have said in its entry on "ragging": see "hazing." But it does not. Also, in India, at least, it is the subject of Supreme Court judgments, which has declared it a human rights abuse, and of some legislation. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

PS Of course, I do see that Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka as well as Hazing are poorly written and have OR issues. In other words, they need tags, not of mergers, but of improvement etc. I believe the three ragging articles could be combinged into one, ie Ragging in India Sri Lanka etc redirected to Ragging, or Ragging in South Asia but feel the latter should be separate from Hazing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

PPS As you will see, "ragging" has some academic literature noting its occurrence. Examples: Nakassis, Constantine V. (2016), Doing Style: Youth and Mass Mediation in South India, University of Chicago Press, p. 34, ISBN 978-0-226-32799-0, Haritos-Fatouros, Mika (2012), The Psychological Origins of Institutionalized Torture, Routledge, pp. 207–, ISBN 978-1-135-64671-4, Yap, Po Jen; Lau, Holning (2010), Public Interest Litigation in Asia, Routledge, pp. 69–, ISBN 978-1-136-90720-3, Chen, Hongyi (2014), Constitutionalism in Asia in the Early Twenty-First Century, Cambridge University Press, pp. 363–, ISBN 978-1-107-04341-1, Deshpande, Satish (2013), Beyond Inclusion: The Practice of Equal Access in Indian Higher Education, Routledge, pp. 208–, ISBN 978-1-317-81020-9, ... Perhaps these can be used to improve this article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

PPPS I should add that the words themselves, "hazing" and "ragging" are examples of how verbs, haze and rag, came to be nominalized to describe specific practises (with many common features) in different Englishes, the former only in American English, the latter first in British English and later only in South Asian English (though in the last few minutes I've become aware also in Malaysian English). Both America and South Asia, being former British colonies, have many examples of words still in use which are archaic in British English. Examples: the AE use of "pass" to mean "die" or the IE use of "needful" to mean "what is needed." Of course, the reverse is true as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:22, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be possible to dig up some more on the history of the term. Wodehouse, in his school stories written in the earliest years of the 20th century, uses the word "ragging" as well as the noun "a rag" quite a lot to mean something on the lines of "creating a disturbance", not necessarily in the form of bullying. I only know this from reading the stories, but I'm sure it must have been properly discussed somewhere. --bonadea contributions talk 12:35, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@Bonadea:The noun rag was used well into the 50s to mean "a noisy debate or rowdy celebration, esp. as carried on in defiance of authority or discipline; (also) a boisterous prank or practical joke." (OED). OED gives as an example: "1894 W. H. Wilkins & H. Vivian Green Bay Tree I. 275 It was the usual senseless ‘rag’ in which Pimlico and his friends were wont to indulge at their convivial gatherings." The verb rag (in this sense) is " slang. To tease or torment; spec. (orig. University slang) to make fun of in a rough or boisterous manner; to bully; (also) to disorder (a person's room) as an act of ragging." It doesn't have Wodehouse as an example, but it does have several others, such as "1891 Spectator 3 Jan. 3/2 The revellers went round and ‘ragged’ several men in their rooms." Apparently, it was still being used in this sense in 2006. Oh, I see, you are talking about Wodehouse's school stories. Hmm. Do you mean the ones he wrote in the schoolboy holiday annuals in the 20s and 30s? I have some in the attic. Will have to dust them ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:55, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@Bonadea: And I did find one, a story called, Scott's sister: A Public School Story" by PG Wodehouse from the 1924 Greyfriars Holiday Annual. It is about cricket. "Rag" and "ragging" are being used in it in the sense of "pulling someone's leg" or "playing a prank on someone." Here is an example, and I'll stop, after that, in case I get accused of turning this into a chat room:

“ "Look here, Venables," he said, " I'll start by saying I'm not ragging, or you might have your doubts. I want you to put me on to-morrow when Scott comes in. Whoever's bowling, take him off and give me an over. I shall only want one. If I can't get him in that I sha'n't get him at all."

" Have you developed a new ball ?" inquired Venables.

It was Charteris' habit to announce every other day that he had developed anew ball.

"Don't rag," said Charteris earnestly. "I'm quite serious. I mean it. ...

”

More than likely, it might even be on the internet. Thanks again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:36, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

And yes it is on the internet: Scott's sister, by PG Wodehouse, Greyfriars Holiday Annual 1924. It is on page 22. It would have saved me a trip up a rickety stairway. But it was more fun this way. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:40, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

New merger proposal

It is proposed, per discussion above, and consensus in Talk:Ragging_in_India#Merge_with_Hazing.3F, that the pages Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka (and any other country-specific ragging pages) be merged into Ragging. It is felt that "Ragging," as a "practice of ritually humiliating new army recruits or university students by physical or verbal bullying" (OED) does not vary so much across the countries of South Asia and elsewhere as to warrant country-specific pages. Also, as the pages Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka are in need of some improvement, and Ragging is mostly a stub, it is further felt that merging the articles into one will make the task of improvement easier. Some of the history of the term and the practice, as outlined above in some discussions, can perhaps be more reliably added to the page. Please comment below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:38, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

PS I just discoved that there was another ragging page, this one even more specific, "Ragging at the Indian Institutes of Technology," which after an AfD discussion, has been redirected to Hazing. This propsal would apply to that page as well, i.e. after consensus is reached, that page will be redirected to Ragging instead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:50, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

PPS Pinging: @AtlasDuane:, @Batternut:, @Spacecowboy420:, @Obi2canibe:, @Andrew Gray:, @Bonadea:, @Jerry:. I have left posts at WT:INDIA and WT:LK. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

• Support merging Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka into Ragging. Also support redirecting Freshy ragging, List of deaths caused by ragging, List of people who have died because of ragging, No Ragging Foundation, Ragging at the Indian Institutes of Technology, Ragging Deaths and Ragging in IIT to Ragging.

As per my comments here, Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka could be resurrected to list notable incidents, similar to List of hazing deaths in the United States, if Ragging becomes too large.--Obi2canibe (talk) 11:16, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe: Since it has been two weeks and no objections have been made to the merger proposal, I will do the proposed redirects (including the ones mentioned by you) after another 24 hours, i.e. at this time tomorrow. (@Spacecowboy420:) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Noted.--Obi2canibe (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe: I've done the redirects. The merges, I'm not sure how, especially the talk pages. Do you think you could do those? Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:23, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Can't do it right now, will look at it when I have time.--Obi2canibe (talk) 14:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe and Fowler&fowler: I support all these merges. And because it has been enough time already, I have merged the articles. There is no need to merge talk pages. Capitals00 (talk) 06:25, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks.--Obi2canibe (talk) 18:05, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

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Draft:MAHARASHTRA PROHIBITION OF RAGGING ACT, 1999

Please consider incorporating material from the above draft submission into this article. Drafts are eligible for deletion after 6 months of inactivity. ~Kvng (talk) 14:47, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I believe I already did move the material from that draft into this article on Ragging. It is there under the header "legislation". Kkavita (talk) 20:25, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Kkavita, thanks for doing that. I have closed the draft. ~Kvng (talk) 15:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Sexual abuse

The sexual abuse section is really really terribly written. It quotes Quora of all things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WolframaticAlpha (talk • contribs) 17:56, 2 March 2022 (UTC)