Talk:Ragging in India

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The death of Aakash Gautam due to ragging in NIT is a fake news. The previous reference (Reference no. 13) is also fake. Please stop spoiling a open site like wiki to post fake information. -Aakash Gautam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.124.233.29 (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

This article is awful.

It's about 500% too long and is full of OR. No matter what I remove, I still find more useless content. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Merge with Hazing?

Spacecowboy420 seems to think this article is the same thing as hazing, and that this article consists of OR and is too long. Therefore he redirected it to Hazing. Obi2canibe and Drmargi reverted him several times, encouraging him to seek consensus on the talk page. I have placed the merge template on this page and created this talk page section so interested parties can discuss if it should be merged or not. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 14:43, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

... and having found the same thing happening over at Ragging in Sri Lanka, I have added the merge template to that page with a link to the discussion here. Are there any more of these Ragging pages we should include? ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 14:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

We may want to also discuss whether this edit was an appropriate way to handle the main Ragging article, and also, if these two are merged into Hazing, Dedovshchina perhpas should be considered as well. We should probably also take a look at other articles in Category:Ragging - at the very least the contents of that category should be merged to Category:Hazing. However, I haven't tagged all those yet. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 14:58, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I stumbled into this looking for something tangentially related, but was concerned about the rather too bold redirects, with no effort made to discuss and gain consensus or merge content, which led me to revert both redirects. I now see this has also made its way to ANI; I apologize if my reverts have caused any difficulty. Based on my reading of the above, the articles and the discussion at ANI, a case can be definitely be made for merging this content and the Sri Lankan content into the main article on hazing, perhaps with some trimming. But to simply redirect with no consensus and no plan for inclusion of the content of the two articles is both high-handed and inappropriate, and should never have been done unilaterally. --Drmargi (talk) 17:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

It seems as if there is relevant content that I removed with my redirect, that could be easily included on the hazing article, if this article was merged with it. I do however think that this article has a significant amount of content that should be removed due to poor sources etc, which makes the entire article a prime candidate for merging with the hazing article. And yes, of course I should have made these points first and entered into discussion before just redirecting the article. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:12, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

It would be good if all of those reverting my redirect could contribute towards this discussion. Drmargi thanks for your input, what you said made a lot of sense. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh well, despite feeling the need to revert me and make an ANI report - discussion here about the actual redirect is rather lacking. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

@Spacecowboy420: My view on this was made clear at ANI - Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka contain unique content which should have been merged into Hazing before they were blanked and redirected. It is up to you to do this, please don't expect me or any other editor to do this.

Although my priority is ensure that the unique content is preserved somewhere on Wikipedia, I would like to see these two articles preserved. Hazing is currently 54k which means by WP:SIZESPLIT standards it may need to be divided. The size will only increase when content is merged from Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka. Ragging is a serious issue in South Asia and there is scope for a lot of good, well sourced content to be added.--Obi2canibe (talk) 08:14, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't believe Ragging, Ragging in India, or Ragging in Sri Lanka should be merged with Hazing. The terms have similar meanings but different histories, both going back over a century. The term "ragging" was used for sadistic rituals in the British military training schools and colleges. It has been used in Kipling for such practice in Britain, although the term is no longer used much in the UK. The use in South Asia has that provenance. No one in South Asia knows this meaning of "hazing," just as no one in America knows this specialist meaning of "ragging." If you want to create a new page, such as Ritual verbal and physical humiliation of new army recruits and university students and include both Hazing and Ragging in it, that would be fine, but I see little chance that "ragging" will go into "hazing". Accordingly, I have removed the redirect of Ragging to Hazing. Had it been a redirect, the OED would have said in its entry on "ragging": see "hazing." But it does not. Also, in India, at least, it is the subject of Supreme Court judgments, which has declared it a human rights abuse, and of some legislation. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:17, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

PS Of course, I do see that Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka as well as Hazing are poorly written and have OR issues. In other words, they need tags, not of mergers, but of improvement etc. I believe the three ragging articles could be combinged into one, ie Ragging in India Sri Lanka etc redirected to Ragging, or Ragging in South Asia but feel the latter should be separate from Hazing. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:30, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

PPS As you will see, "ragging" has some academic literature noting its occurrence. Examples: Nakassis, Constantine V. (2016), Doing Style: Youth and Mass Mediation in South India, University of Chicago Press, p. 34, ISBN 978-0-226-32799-0, Haritos-Fatouros, Mika (2012), The Psychological Origins of Institutionalized Torture, Routledge, pp. 207–, ISBN 978-1-135-64671-4, Yap, Po Jen; Lau, Holning (2010), Public Interest Litigation in Asia, Routledge, pp. 69–, ISBN 978-1-136-90720-3, Chen, Hongyi (2014), Constitutionalism in Asia in the Early Twenty-First Century, Cambridge University Press, pp. 363–, ISBN 978-1-107-04341-1, Deshpande, Satish (2013), Beyond Inclusion: The Practice of Equal Access in Indian Higher Education, Routledge, pp. 208–, ISBN 978-1-317-81020-9, ... Perhaps these can be used to improve this article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: Thanks for your comments and the useful sources. I have no issue with creating a new article on Ragging by merging content from Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka and expanding using the many reliable sources on the subject. If Ragging becomes too large perhaps we can keep Ragging in India and Ragging in Sri Lanka just for notable incidents, similar to List of hazing deaths in the United States.--Obi2canibe (talk) 10:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@Obi2canibe: That sounds good. But, we now come to the hard part: Who will bell the cat? I mean who will do the cleaning up etc.? The people who have made the largest number of edits on Ragging in India page don't seem to be active editors any more. I certainly don't have the time myself. ... Well, let's see how this discussion evolves. If these articles stay, we could make another post on WT:INDIA asking for volunteers to help with the article. BTW, I think I might have restarted a parallel merger discussion on Talk:Ragging, which is no longer being redirected. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:35, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

I think that putting all the ragging in Sri Lanka and ragging in India content in one ragging article, seems like a good compromise.

I also think that rather than simply copy pasting content from the two articles, each reference should be checked, as there are some really bad sources being used - ie. a yahoo group is not a reliable source. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:52, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

@Spacecowboy420: OK, sounds good to me. I'll add merger tags to R in I and R in S pages, and leave posts on the talk pages. I'm assuming this will be a new merger proposal, warranting a different tag. I will remove the original merger tag (with Hazing), as you, its proposer, are on board. And then we'll wait a week or thereabouts for a consensus to evolve by discussion or by default. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Support new merger proposal. Although unreliable sources should be removed, there is no need to removed the content straight away. If RS can't be found easily how about adding and waiting a while to see if the contributors to these articles produce the goods.--Obi2canibe (talk) 11:07, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Ragging deaths - bad sources/copy vio

The ragging deaths section seems to be full of copy vio and yahoo groups being used as sources.

Could the original contributors of this content please provide better sources and rewrite the copy vio content. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)