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Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/June 2020

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June 30

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June 30, 2020 (2020-06-30) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents
  • A large explosion at a medical clinic in Tehran, Iran, kills at least 19 people, mostly women, according to Iranian authorities. A gas leak is suspected as being the cause. (BBC News)

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Ludwig Finscher

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Article: Ludwig Finscher (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NZZ
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: German Musicologist who edited a 28-volumes encyclopedia known as MGG. We expanded a stub. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Ida Haendel

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Article: Ida Haendel (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BR-Klassik, Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Violinist, child prodigy. Grimes2 (talk) 17:57, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Rudolfo Anaya

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Article: Rudolfo Anaya (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Died on June 28, but only reported on June 30. Bloom6132 (talk) 14:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Jack Whittaker (lottery winner)

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Article: Jack Whittaker (lottery winner) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Died on June 27, but only reported on June 30. Bloom6132 (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Hong Kong National Security Law

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Article: Hong Kong national security law (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ China passes its Hong Kong national security law that criminalises secession of Hong Kong and other controversial measures. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ China passes its Hong Kong national security law in an act widely seen as a breach of its treaty obligations and the Hong Kong Basic Law.
Alternative blurb II: ​ China passes a controversial security law regarding its relationship with Hong Kong.
Alternative blurb III: ​ China imposes a national security law on Hong Kong, limiting personal freedoms within the special administrative region
News source(s): Guardian, Reuters, CNN, NYTimes, BBC
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Just got passed, so article not yet updated. This is what the protests were leading up to, and they may have to back on depending on the reaction to this, but for now this is clearly a blurb. Masem (t) 02:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Added alt blurb. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:42, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt blurb. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support original blurb, quality is good. Hong Kong Basic Law Article 23 does require Hong Hong to pass a national security law so it doesn't breach that. I believe the treaty you are referring to is Sino-British Joint Declaration, so how does this sound:
China passes its Hong Kong national security law in an act widely seen as a breach of Sino-British Joint Declaration.104.243.98.96 (talk) 04:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the HK leader doesn’t even know what’s in the law, so it really does breach the Basic Law. But also the Joint Declaration, hence the UK rightfully not getting as much flak for being involved as the US has just for trying. Kingsif (talk) 10:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
IP, you’ve been commenting this on a lot of recent noms when there’s no grammatical errors. Further, whoever posts it will correct typos and punctuation, so there’s no reason to say oppose just because you think there’s a spelling or other mistake (where there isn’t one). Kingsif (talk) 10:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now pending more details. Especially oppose altblurb which is NPOV. Banedon (talk) 04:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem is that China has not published the details and given how little they've published on the draft, no one expects details on this to be published readily in the next few days. --Masem (t) 05:11, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then we can't have a blurb, can we? It'd be sort of like a "elections just concluded, but we don't know who won yet because the votes are still being counted" kind of blurb - we do nothing until the count is over. Banedon (talk) 05:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • With all due respect to that position, this is much like the Premier League blurb – this is in the news now, and we already know of the law's existence. Waiting will probably do more harm than good. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 05:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, we know enough about what it contained - that it criminialises cessession attempts of HK, attempts for HK to work with foreign powers, and other details from a draft published earlier last week. There was no indication that China was going to change it mind on those terms, but other specifics that may have been added or removed are not clear. What was supposed to happened was that HK was to have gotten this bill to vote on at which point the world would have known, but instead China backdoor'ed its passage and kept the bill's text a secret. Chinese officials in HK will get the bill and start to enforce it at which point its full extent is expected to be known but those details don't matter - the broad concept of what was in the bill was well known already -that's why there were those protests for nearly a year - and its passed with clearly no sign China was backing down on the matter. --Masem (t) 05:23, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Significant build up from last year, not sure about the blurb though. Gotitbro (talk) 05:23, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle, but agree current blurbs are speculative and veer off NPOV. I suggest something along the lines of "China passes a new Hong Kong national security law in the National People's Congress, bypassing the Hong Kong Legislature." This is not speculative yet still conveys a reason behind why the issue is controversial and in the news, without taking a position on it. CMD (talk) 09:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alternative blurb. Significant event, but the main blurb makes no sense. I think what Masem meant to say was, "criminalises support of the secession of Hong Kong". Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 09:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all those words and it doesn't tell me anything about what's in the Hong Kong national security law. The hook says that it "criminalises secession of Hong Kong and other controversial measures". What other measure? Is the whole point to just implement Article 23 of the Hong Kong "basic law" (which apparently wasn't a law)? The article spends 1000s of words detailing outrage but doesn't actually tell me what the problem is. --LaserLegs (talk) 09:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak Support the news here seems to be the outrage over a piece of legislation, not the actual legislation itself. The alt-blurb proposed by CMD is better, the current proposals are highly POV --LaserLegs (talk) 10:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and WAIT Support now until the Gazette is published and it comes into effect. The Gazette will also contain full details of the law. It should be later today or tomorrow, probably. After keeping an eye (and writing much of) the article, I’m surprised it’s been nommed quite this early. Yes, the story is at least half about the controversy, but we can’t say the article has been updated appropriately to reflect that it’s been passed yet. Kingsif (talk) 10:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not even the details of the law, but that it was passed bypassing HK when it was expected HK would have a say. Now if the text is to hit within the next few hours, that's reasonable, but the story is that HK just got kicked out of the room on their own future here which the rest of the world is crying foul about. --Masem (t) 13:00, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Gazette appears to have been published, so the point is moot, but if the only story was the controversy of China getting involved, it would have been posted last month with the decision - but I think that was quickly shot down with 'wait until they make a law and it comes into effect'. Kingsif (talk) 15:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • It wasn't China getting involved, but that they decided to use a process - technically legal apparently - to bypass any input or vote from HK themselves to put the law into effect, and which HK can't do anything about. UN and most other countries are seeing this as a severe violation of what was expected even after China got involved last month, which was for HK to have a chance to see and vote on the law themselves. --Masem (t) 19:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Technically legal, under Chinese law, just about from the political reading I've been doing for the article. And a lot of media seemed to hope that Beijing would at least show Carrie Lam the law before approving it, but a lot them didn't exactly expect it that to happen. I think China has now also dropped the claim that this is to 'support' a law that the HK LegCo should bring in with the same text. They're just getting started from the sounds of reporting. We'll probably know more very quickly with all the democracy supporters who have said they're still going to protest tomorrow. Kingsif (talk) 22:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but note that blurb should read "secessionism" not "secession" or should be reworded to clarify. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:55, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a question: Isn't that an ongoing thing? Why it is not considered ongoing, particularly when you consider the effect of the bill. Agree that the blurb seems POV, maybe something like : China overrides local power to introduce a National Security Legislation so as to criminalize some acts promotes Hong Kong independence and/or foreign inteference. ? --1233 ( T / C） 11:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on significance. As far as I can tell, this was the final stage in the legislative process, unlike previous nominations. I can see the logic of waiting a few hours until the text of the law is published, but no more. None of the blurbs are particularly good though; I'll add alt3. Modest Genius talk 11:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"imposes"? Come on, HK is sovereign territory of the PRC --LaserLegs (talk) 11:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, it's perfectly legal for them to do so (under Chinese law anyway, unclear under HK law), but it has not been passed by the Hong Kong legislature. I don't see what's wrong with that word, but you could swap it for 'legislates' or 'promulgates' (once the text has been published). Modest Genius talk 12:04, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Striking as the full text has now been published. I think consensus is clear, marking ready. Modest Genius talk 16:18, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Hong Kong has now lost its special status within China. Count Iblis (talk) 17:08, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Posted Altblurb posted, it's hard to come to a NPOV blurb since the issue itself is a POV (anti-China/pro-HK). For now I'm posting the altblurb because a) it has the most support, b) it seems to be an accurate representation of current talk in the media. Discussion should continue towards a better blurb imo. --qedk (t 愛 c) 17:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support original blurb. The blurb needs to mention successionism as the reason for the law as well as the fact that it has other controversies. The other blurbs don't describe what the law is supposed to do.104.243.98.96 (talk) 17:39, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment Current blurb is kinda bad. I'm itching to place a Template:By whom just after "widely seen". Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 17:48, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change to CMD's alternative blurb with wording of ", bypassing the Legislative Council of Hong Kong" on NPOV grounds. When the England-educated, former Tory, Grenville Cross, himself former Director of Public Prosecutions in the HKSAR from 1997 to 2009, writes that the law is a result of the Basic Law not being treated as a "two-way street", it is unacceptable WP:UNDUE to treat frothing 'criticism' from the U.S. / UK governments on equal grounds. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 17:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support CMD's altblurb; failing that, I'd also support altblurb II. Both strike me as being neutrally worded, whilst conveying the gravity of the situation as more than "some random law passed". Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 18:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Updated blurb to CMD's suggestion per above. SpencerT•C 22:12, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image update I don't expect asking in this thread to be seen, but since the talkpage was less helpful: I think the image for the blurb should be changed. The current image isn't in the article, and an image of protests may be more relevant. I added an image of some protests against the law decision in May, and someone else just added this photo from protests yesterday, which I think would be a good option. Kingsif (talk) 13:54, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Updated image. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 29

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June 29, 2020 (2020-06-29) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

(Posted) RD: Johnny Mandel

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Article: Johnny Mandel (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times; BBC News; The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 19:38, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Carl Reiner

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Stale. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Carl Reiner (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  American actor, comedian, director, screenwriter, and publisher whose career spanned seven decades, winning 11 Emmy Awards (Post)
News source(s): Variety, New York Times, CBS TV, Independent, The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Masem (t) 13:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The two are not at all comparable. Williams was posted because of the circumstances of his death, not his stature in the field. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with blurb All the "citation needed" tags have been filled in and many references have been added to support the material. It would be nice to have an Impact or Legacy section, but the article is in great shape and should be considered for a main page appearance. Yoninah (talk) 02:16, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Clearly an entertainment legend; should not be omitted on the basis of pedantic, fallible guidelines. BMJ-pdx (talk) 04:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb. Article appears in excellent shape. When we total the page views of all the six current RDs and three blurbs, they total less than 20% of the page views Reiner's article received yesterday. --Light show (talk) 08:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC) Almost no unreferenced appearances from the long list, since the few without a separate citation are blue-linked to articles which support the details.--Light show (talk) 08:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the moment until the article is fully cited. Def oppose blurb at any point: this is a candidate for RD only. - SchroCat (talk) 12:42, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Can we get some examples of what uncited statements still need to be addressed? KConWiki (talk) 16:47, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Parts of the Filmography and all the Discography and Bibliography, for starters. - SchroCat (talk) 17:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, the only time this can be taken as true is when the person was in a top-billing role. Particularly when we get to some of Reiner's roles here as cameos and uncredited roles, they absolutely have to be sourced. --Masem (t) 18:40, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Common misconception though, so don't be sad about it. Many filmographies feature items which aren't even linked to articles, so the verification of claims is even more tenuous. Often, linked articles here on Wikipedia don't even mention the individuals. And worse, Wikipedia isn't a RS. Doubly worse, the linked articles may change and lose the references needed. Worse thrice, We could just add a bunch of fake movies and say "well, if you can't find those movies, you're not trying hard enough". So no, three times no, each appearance needs to be referenced in this article, and that is a general principle for all BLP/BDPs. Cheers!! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
..... Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. Article appears to be reasonably sourced aside from the -ography sections. Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 96 years This seems to be yet another case of a veteran star getting hung up at RD because they had a long career and the jobsworths insist that every role and appearance be cited. Our readership doesn't care, as they are already reading the article in large numbers, but, as this keeps coming up, I thought I'd check what difference it makes. Are any of the uncited entries actually wrong? I compared the entries in Reiner's filmography before the death, when it was almost completely uncited, with how it is now, when it is mostly cited. I found that all the entries remained the same – so no errors – but that three recent bit-parts were added – awful stuff like Dumbbells, which is probably best forgotten. So, this insistence on citing filmographies seems to be the waste of time that one would expect.
Such casting information is unlikely to be wrong because it is public knowledge – millions of people watch the movies and the credits are quite well-documented. It's the other details that need checking and verification. For example, I see an uncited sentence – "Reiner was a lifelong Democrat." Do people get registered with political parties when they are children in the US? What about before WW2, when he was a machinist, not an actor? Is this uncited because it's hard to verify or perhaps even not true?
Andrew🐉(talk) 23:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That certainly needs a citation; thank you for pointing that out. Also his “endorsement” of Bernie Sanders in 2016 is just cited to a Twitter post saying he liked one of Sanders’ rally speeches. Not good enough. P-K3 (talk) 23:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The "lifelong Democrat" has now been cited to an obituary in a newspaper but that's probably a case of citogenesis. I'm wary of such obituaries now because they often rely on Wikipedia. I'm going to try taking out the word "lifelong" and see if such sources follow. As for Twitter, Reiner was quite prolific in that medium, tweeting every day. That's quite easy to verify but our article doesn't say anything about such new media. From looking at Twitter, I find this recent reminiscence on Youtube: Dispatches from Quarantine. That's quite well-produced and very accessible so it's a shame that Wikipedia isn't keeping up. And there's old media too which might be missed. He recently wrote a book I Remember Radio and I found a reference to an interview that he gave on Monitor. Tracking all these various media appearances over such a long career should not be an obstacle at RD because it should not be necessary. We are supposed to write in a summary style and, per WP:NOTDIARY, not try to record everything that the subject ever did. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to dive in and fix the issues rather than list them out here. Improving the article might go some way to getting it posted. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:47, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As can be seen from this reference, Reiner appeared in literally dozens of television specials and acted in television series from the 1950s to 2000. We have completely sourced his film appearances, but the television appearances are difficult to source (some only appear on fan websites; one was just removed as a non-RS) and the list may never be complete. I expanded and sourced the Bibliography section but have no idea how to trace his old records under Discography. I agree with Andrew Davidson: enough already. The article got half a million views yesterday. It is in good shape. Comment out the stuff without cites that you don't like and let the rest of our readers see it. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 00:21, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What I am flabbergastered about is the lack of sourcing for the 1990s shows and beyond. This should be easy. For example, there's a Crossing Jordan episode. Less than 10 seconds in Google gets me a ChiTrib hit (which I will add). I did try to look at that 1958 special earlier and that looks a lot harder as it has a couple different names it seem, but people need to look at Google Books and other resources out there. Documentation is there. --Masem (t) 03:17, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) New swine flu strain found in China

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Strong consensus against posting. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:23, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: G4 EA H1N1 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ New G4 EA H1N1 swine flu strain with pandemic potential found in China (Post)
News source(s): Science
Credits:

Article updated
 Count Iblis (talk) 00:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) François Fillon convicted of embezzlement

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No consensus to post. Stephen 02:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: François Fillon (talk · history · tag) and Fillon affair (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In France former Prime Minister François Fillon is convicted of embezzlement of public funds and sentenced to prison. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In France, François Fillon is convicted of embezzlement related to his 2017 presidential campaign and is sentenced to prison.
News source(s): The Telegraph & etc.
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Former PM of a major European country is jailed for corruption. Not a common event. Section dealing with the trial and conviction may need further expansion. Ad Orientem (talk) 20:29, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's all over the place. We actually have a pretty decent list List of current heads of state and government --LaserLegs (talk) 01:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - We'd cover it if the Vice President of the US was convicted of embezzlement, and the PM is a similar role and France is a great power in any sense of the word. As political scandals go, the only thing that might make it less than notable is American other-countries-don't-exist-ism (FWIW, I'm american) This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 03:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps if it was the current VP but definitely not for a former one and it would be a hard sell either way. Gotitbro (talk) 05:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support While not equivalent to countries such as the UK, the Prime Minister of France very far from a ceremonial role. Further, it was a very impactful scandal during a significant Presidential bid. Similar to Orbitalbuzzsaw's point, if Joe Biden was taken to court for paying his wife hundreds of thousands for nominal work, that would be big news, as would the result being a prison sentence. CMD (talk) 05:42, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support Second in command of a major country, in the executive, gets convicted of wrongdoing and jailed. If the treasurer of a major country got jailed for fraud etc especially when lining up to try and take up the top job, that's notable, and per Chipmunkdavis Bumbubookworm (talk) 05:53, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per the precedent of Conviction of Vital Kamerhe a couple of days ago. Had Fillon been a former head of state or incumbent PM, I think it would be different. —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:48, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. We would post it if Nancy Pelosi or Mike Pence were convicted of embezzlement, while in office or afterwards, due to conduct related to their duties or campaigns. 331dot (talk) 08:56, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's not really a fair parallel because those are both active politicians. A better example would be Dick Cheney or Al Gore. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nor is it fair because the PM of France is not the equivalent of POTUS. Not by a LONG shot. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:10, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Recall that Fillon was neck-and-neck with Le Pen in the Presidential race when this scandal broke, at which point his numbers tanked and never recovered. It is more likely than not the reason the current president is Macron and not someone else. The focus of oppose votes on the relative importance of the PM seems to be missing the point. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, so just some political damage to an individual. I see. "Politician gets caught". No big deal then. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:09, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why is everyone in this thread exaggerating their positions? Of course it's a big deal if the probable next leader of a G8 country goes to jail. Maybe it's not ITN-worthy (I'm not supporting) but it's certainly a valid candidate. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Benny Mardones

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Stale. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Benny Mardones (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Variety
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article needs some reformatting. MetaTracker (talk) 19:34, 29 June 2020 (UTC)MetaTracker[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) China Forcing Birth Control on Uyghurs

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No consensus to post. Stephen 01:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Cultural genocide of Uyghurs (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ An Associated Press investigation reveals that the Chinese government is committing "demographic genocide" against its Uyghur population. (Post)
News source(s): The Associated Press, BBC, Guardian
Credits:

Article needs updating
 MetaTracker (talk) 06:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There is no discussion of this AP News story in the target article. I note there is previous discussion of the subject (i.e. forced sterilization) but that uses sources from 2019. Black Kite (talk) 11:29, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Tentative oppose. The issue is that it gives a lot of weight to this report, and Wikipedia itself would be saying 'China is currently committing genocide' - a very weighted statement - based on this report. Then there's also the likelihood of the Hong Kong national security law coming back into the news soon, and with this and that the box would be 2/3 'China is doing horrible things to people'. Without placing a judgment on either story to be posted over the other, there are many more RS about the national security law, so saying 'China is destroying human rights in HK' is probably safer main page because of the weight of outside sources saying so. If there's more RS about this genocide, I would probably support. Kingsif (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To put his in perspective, a major global newsmaker like Beyonce – Pardonnez-moi, I mean Beyoncé! – racked up 95,000 page views last Friday. (That's an average of seven page views for each one of the 13,500 words in her article.) – Sca (talk) 21:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, it's worth noting once again that I believe running ITNC on pageviews is absurd, and that's what WP:TOP25 is for. Others appear to have different views. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 07:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on the basis this only being a single source of discovery. This is not to state the report necessarily is wrong, but that its only one point; it will very much likely trigger human rights agencies like UN/WHO to investigate and come out later with declarative statements against Chinese about the practice which would be more substantial ITN points, assuming they came to the same conclusion. They may not, as a possibility. The press is not the court of law and in line with what Kingsif is saying we need to be careful how that then is presented in Wikivoice given how controversial this statement would be. --Masem (t) 18:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle but currently unsure of the sourcing per the others. Perhaps a more neutrally-written blurb could be written, but if true and more properly verified this is a huge deal. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 19:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC) Oppose seems a bit overblown, also we have another more important China blurb w/ Hong Kong. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 00:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose per others. Needs better sourcing and wider coverage. There are unquestionably some pretty horrible things going on in China these days. But we need to tread carefully when discussing them on the main page per NOTNEWS and RGW. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Needs more than a single source being one report. Should be added to existing page on Xinjiang. Opens up the door to having similar allegations of ITN for other countries, i.e. India. 104.243.98.96 (talk) 19:44, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – There is at least one additional RS report, from the BBC, but two sources isn't good enough for ITN. Also, we certainly would not use a polemical phrase like "demographic genocide" in a blurb. – Sca (talk) 21:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Guardian fields cautiously worded article. – Sca (talk) 21:27, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Seems like a technical oppose for me. Don't really see how this is ITN material, considering this is part of the Xinjiang re-education camps, and I don't remember seeing that on ITN (please correct if I'm wrong), which hasn't had significant updates in the campaign. And what is the blurb and hook here exactly? The linked article isn't in the blurb and appears way too broad/not exactly related to the news reports. A better blurb, hook and reasoning is needed here. Gotitbro (talk) 22:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'd support posting something on China's oppression of the Uyghurs, but I don't think it is acceptable to word a blurb in this way. AP states "some experts are calling [it] a form of 'demographic genocide.'" We can't take that and state it has been 'revealed that China is committing demographic genocide'. No alternative blurbs immediately come to mind. Hrodvarsson (talk) 22:52, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose POV blurb, POV article title. AP reports that Chinas social conservatives are forcibly limiting reproductive rights ... what's the event here? --LaserLegs (talk) 01:29, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's obviously not gonna be posted, but your framing of this issue is very dishonest. Of course, this really isn't the place for a debate. MetaTracker (talk) 04:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) 2020 Pakistan Stock Exchange attack

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Article: 2020 Pakistan Stock Exchange attack (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Gunmen have attacked the Pakistani stock exchange in Karachi, Pakistan, killing at least eight people and injuring others. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ At least 8 people are killed and seven others injured in an attack on Pakistan Stock Exchange in Karachi.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article needs updating

Nominator's comments: Developing. Still stub. Sherenk1 (talk) 06:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 28

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June 28, 2020 (2020-06-28) (Sunday)
Arts and culture

Business and economy
  • Following negotiations with creditors, Chesapeake Energy applies for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the United States. It will seek to restructure its debts in order to continue operations. The company is experiencing cash flow and liquidity issues due to low energy prices and large amounts of debt. (Reuters)

Health and environment

International relations

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) Malawian election

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Articles: 2020 Malawian presidential election (talk · history · tag) and Lazarus Chakwera (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Lazarus Chakwera is elected President of Malawi in fresh elections ordered by the Constitutional Court after irregularities were uncovered during voting in 2019 (Post)
News source(s): AP, BBC, Reuters
Credits:

One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:41, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can you be more specific? The election statistics are cited (albeit in a slightly unorthodox way) to the Malawian Electoral Commission. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The last line of "Candidates" and first line of "Opinion polls." GreatCaesarsGhost 14:50, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These have now both been addressed, GreatCaesarsGhost. —Brigade Piron (talk) 17:13, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay now. 75.188.224.208 (talk) 01:51, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Belarus unrest

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No consensus to post. Stephen 01:12, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: 2020 Belarusian protests (talk · history · tag) and 2020 Belarusian presidential election (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
 Abcmaxx (talk) 23:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This appeared, at best, to be a story from about last week, but there's little international coverage of it since. The article on the protests also don't show the signs for an ongoing event. If this was meant to be a blurb, the story is definitely stale. --Masem (t) 23:40, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nominator comments I have nominated this because the protests are rapidly gaining momentum and are escalating. Obviously coverage of Belarus is lacking at best anyway in most countries that do not border it; even the fact that WikiProject:Belarus is inactive show how well covered the country is; but certainly Polish, Lithuanian and Ukrainian media are now picking the story up more and more frantically and the protests are getting more and more intense. The article is short because it is still early days, but the closer to the elections the more coverage I expect there will be. Abcmaxx (talk) 23:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Crystal ball nom, nominate when there are actual "ongoing" protests and which are "in the news". Gotitbro (talk) 13:51, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Unsee current coverage. – Sca (talk) 14:03, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 27

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June 27, 2020 (2020-06-27) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Health and environment
  • COVID-19 pandemic in India
    • India surpasses 500,000 cases after reporting 18,552 new cases in the last 24 hours, the highest toll to date. India also reports a total 15,685 deaths from the disease. (AP News)

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Adrian Devine

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Article: Adrian Devine (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sports Illustrated
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Siya Kakkar

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Article has been nominated for deletion. This nom can be re-opened if it is kept.P-K3 (talk) 16:33, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Siya Kakkar (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [3]
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: her death has been mentioned in CNN
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Irish government formation

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Stale and no consensus. Stephen 01:08, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: Micheál Martin (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Following February's general election, Micheál Martin (pictured) is appointed Taoiseach (prime minister) of Ireland, leading a Fianna Fáil–Fine Gael–Green coalition. (Post)
News source(s): itv Sky News BBC New York Times
Credits:
Nominator's comments: New PM elected. Sheila1988 (talk) 12:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality too many citation needed tags. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We usually do not post the succession of a PM. We do post general elections, and posted this one. Removed the errant ITNR tag - Taoiseach is the head of government. Only the head of state (president) is ITNR. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Really? 'Usually' may be technically true, but it seems deeply misleading. It is probably technically true because of such factors as that there are many new PMs in many microstates who don't even get nominated, etc. But it's news to me that we have ever failed to post the succession of an Irish PM, and I know such a failure has certainly not happened in the last 10 years. We certainly posted the last one (Leo Varadkar), even tho I have argued below (in my arguments for Support) that his succession was far less significant for Irish (and British) history. And we had a lengthy debate about precisely when to post that one, but almost everybody then took it for granted that the story should be posted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlhslobus (talk • contribs) 15:16, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not ITN/R, we already posted the general election in February. P-K3 (talk) 13:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I have no opinion about this nomination, but at the time of the elections results it was not at all clear who would form the government. 331dot (talk) 13:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support on significance (I leave others to judge article quality) - Just because it is not ITN/R does not mean it should not be posted. We posted Varadkar's appointment 3 years ago even though it was far less significant in terms of Irish (and British) history, being merely a change caused by the retirement of the incumbent (OK, he was also openly gay and half-Indian, but that barely got a mention in our discussions here). There was a long debate then about precisely when it should be posted (when he became party leader or when he formally got elected as Taoiseach), but almost everybody then took it for granted that the story should be posted (which was probably why supporters felt they could risk having a debate over when to post it). This will be the first time FF and FG, the traditional main parties in Irish politics, have been reluctantly forced into coalition together, and it leaves Sinn Fein (the party of the supporters of the illegal Provisional IRA, who fought a guerilla/terrorist war against Britain for about 30 years in the Northern Ireland Troubles until 1998, and murdered senior members of the British Establishment and of Britain's Royal Family) as the main opposition party, and thus, in the eyes of many, the likely leaders of the next government in less than 5 years time. (That might be attacked as WP:Crystal, but the fear or worry that results for some (such as me), and the hope that results for others, are realities with significant consequences now - but of course a Wikilawyer can always shout WP:Crystal whenever any news story is argued to be significant, because significance can ultimately only ever be seen with hindsight, as in the claim, variously attributed to Chou En Lai or Mao Zedong, that it's too early to decide on the significance of the French Revolution.) None of this was clear at the time the election results were posted over 4 months ago. Tlhslobus (talk) 15:15, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Per P-K3. – Sca (talk) 15:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I didnt even know they didnt have one.... Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Should the assessing admin give any weight to the above opposition justified solely by an admission of personal ignorance? If that were to be accepted as valid grounds for opposing, almost nothing could ever be posted at ITN, as most of us are necessarily personally ignorant about most subjects, and could thus almost always massively outvote those who weren't ignorant of the relevant subject. Tlhslobus (talk) 13:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle: the Irish taoiseach is the one who leads, who people from around the world have heard of, etc. I don't know the Irish president's name. This is, in effect, ITN/R as the role with actual power (akin to PM with a monarchy). Of course, if the posting of the election cancels out posting of succession (surely not, since both seem blurb-worthy moments in different ways) then don't post. Kingsif (talk) 17:27, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Per Kingsif - this is the actual moment power in Ireland changes hands, not the inconclusive 2020 general election (which was on 8th February and not January per the blurb). Our President has only a ceremonial role in this country JW 1961 Talk 18:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is Ireland's first rotation government, first time that the two traditionally main rival parties sit together in a coalition (it's been called "the end of the civil war politics"), and has come after a record number of days of post-election negotiations. I daresay that this is a bigger deal than the election. Rami R 18:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Significant change/appointment of a country leader. Not sure on what basis this is being opposed on. Would like a better taut blurb though. Gotitbro (talk) 19:13, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose solely on article quality. Far too many CN tags. Once referencing is up to scratch I expect to support. On which note; it is true that ITNR mentions only changes of heads of state, but as a matter of practical reality we do usually post changes in heads of government, conditional on article quality. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:56, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support conditional on some improvements to the article. Right now it's not up to snuff but if it improves absolutely a good candidate for ITN. This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 21:26, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment ITN/R provide for the general election and succession of head of state for virtually every country. We all understand the governmental happenings in Vanuatu are not as "important" as those in China, but we do this so we don't have to draw a line indicating some countries are notable and other are not. If we blurb certain countries head of government as well (especially Anglophones) we are sabotaging a good faith effort to combat BIAS. I fully understand the Taoiseach is more important than the president. I personally suggested we change ITNR to make the more important role automatic, but this was rejected. Martin's party won the election, which we posted. Posting his succession as well is plainly bias, and I say that as a flag-waving member of the diaspora. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:59, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Although I sometimes quote it here when I happen to think it is right (and/or probably also sometimes when I just happen to think it is useful to my case  ), WP:BIAS is only an essay and is NOT policy, and quite rightly so. It is an often deeply dubious essay. And one of its most dubious aspects is the occasional implication that English Wikipedia is being unreasonably biased by paying somewhat more attention to the affairs of English-speaking countries. I doubt if many reasonable people would attempt the equivalent criticism of French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, Russian, Chinese, Arabic, or other versions of Wikipedia. In other words, it seems to me that any such WP:BIAS criticism is actually itself unreasonable bias against English speakers. Tlhslobus (talk) 13:33, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • WP:POV is a policy and addresses the need to mitigate editorial bias. Specifically, it notes how disproportional representation can be a symptom of bias. Posting the routine formation of government for the 122nd largest country when we don't post the 121 before it is out of proportion. That the country is Anglophone - and thus the home country of some editors - may indicate bias is a force behind this desire for disproportional representation. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I guess at least that's progress of sorts, as WP:POV is indeed a policy. But it still seems to be a dubious or misleading extrapolation of that policy to an area which, contrary to the initial impression I got from reading the above, does not seem to be specifically covered by that policy, given that the only part of WP:POV that specifically uses the word "disproportionate" is the section WP:PROPORTION which is specifically discussing proportion within an article, which is NOT what we are discussing here. I have every reason to expect that there have been past attempts to extend the proportionality policy beyond what is stated, and that such extensions are absent because there is understandably no consensus for any such extension (presumably for pretty much the same reasons that WP:BIAS has NOT been accepted as policy). Consequently we have no reason to accept that the above attempted extension of that policy to here is a correct interpretation of that policy, perhaps especially when it has at least apparently been misleadingly presented as policy rather than as a highly questionable attempted extension or extrapolation of that policy. As for the alleged Anglophone bias and alleged double-posting bits, I have already addressed essentially the same points above and below, as also have some other editors to some extent, so I currently see no point in repeating myself ad nauseam here.Tlhslobus (talk) 13:05, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Incidentally, contrary to the impression one might understandably get from reading Ghost's above comment ("Martin's party won the election, which we posted."), our ITN posting after the election over 4 months ago quite rightly made no mention whatsoever of Martin or his party ("The Irish general election concludes with no party holding a majority of seats in Dáil Éireann.") and certainly did not say that it had won the election nor that he would be the next PM, and neither did the article, since nothing was clear in the unprecedented situation at the time. (If anything, many understandably felt Sinn Fein had 'won' the election, as they had unarguably got most 1st preference votes, and were consequently promptly given the first chance to try to form a government.) Tlhslobus (talk) 14:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose only for grammatical issue, like typo, punctuation, etc. otherwise I Support because it was significant change/appointment of a country leader which decides the future of the country. 114.125.244.157 (talk) 10:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on notability. However, the blurb should be reformulated to put emphasis on the reason for this notability, ie. the structure of the coalition. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:33, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as the election results were posted, as noted above & this isn't listed at ITN/R. Would we post both the election results & govt.-formation of any Asian or African country? If the answer is no, then why post this? Guy in the Mall (talk) 17:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We don't post "formation of government". We already posted the general election at the time it was in the news, there's no need to make any exception here. – Ammarpad (talk) 20:18, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on notability As others have said above, this is as (if not more) important than the election. I believe the long time the government formation took warrants another posting. Davey2116 (talk) 14:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stale. Oldest item is newer than this one. Suggest close. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Ongoing: 2020 China–India skirmishes

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No consensus to post to ongoing. Stephen 01:07, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 China–India skirmishes (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: The buildup of troops on both sides of the LAC is increasing, China is still grabbing land along the LAC. Mike Pompeo has said that the US will shift troops from Germany to Asia to be in position to counter the PLA as needed. Economic response from India is slowly but visibly increasing, etc This was previously an ITN blurb for the 15/16 Galwan skirmish in which at least 20 soldiers died while fighting. DTM (talk) 05:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for now. This has been getting news coverage and border tensions are at their highest in decades. Article quality is quite good and it is receiving regular updates. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There has been no actual "skirmishes" for over 10 days as both China and India have publicly stated an intention to de-escalate the conflict, for which it seems both sides are doing. The economic response response to any event is always ongoing and extends beyond the duration of any conflict, which is the topic at hand. Statement from US Secretary of State shifting troops cannot be attributed directly to Kashmir, but as part of a broader tensions between US and China. Correct place is to put this in Ongoing conflicts in the portal: Current events.
The first line of the article says "The 2020 China–India skirmishes are part of an ongoing military standoff between China and India." Standoff is a clear factor in this. DTM (talk) 07:29, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please also see the first line in media coverage - "Chinese media have given little to no attention to the dispute and have downplayed the clashes."DTM (talk) 07:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Article may need some light cleanup prior for consideration for ITN, there seems excessive Indian POV and the last 100 edits in past 2 days seem to have come mostly from Indian sources 104.243.98.96 (talk) 06:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC).[reply]
About the sources... please add as many Chinese sources as you like to counter balance the Indian, or even add sources from other countries. Currently all the big names are there, Global Times, People's Daily, The Telegraph, The Guardian, CNN, BBC, WSJ, South Morning China Post etc DTM (talk) 07:28, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 26

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June 26, 2020 (2020-06-26) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Removed) Ongoing: Hong Kong protests

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Article: 2019–20 Hong Kong protests (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item removal (Post)

Nominator's comments: Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't think this article has had more than a single line of added prose in the last week. [4] GreatCaesarsGhost 20:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support removal I was going to wait till Monday to kick this off. June 2020 protests is a mountain of unsourced text and even if it had refs none of it is about actual protests. It's all statements from politicians and protestors. If the response to the National Security legislation is what's "ongoing" in the news then fine -- it's not received a substantial update in a week either -- nominate it for ongoing and we'll examine it's quality instead. --LaserLegs (talk) 20:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There has also been little involvement and no consensus in a discussion to amend the ongoing criteria and omit the criteria that the target article be "regularly updated with new, pertinent information". The target article does not meet the ongoing criteria as currently written. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:28, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Even ignoring the state of update in the article, I am struggling to find any significant news beyond small updates on skirmishes that are happening. They are still apparently happening? but like a dull roar and seems to be waiting for the final draft of the security law that affects the statehood of HK relative to China. Hence likely why no updates. We should be acutely aware those that once this security law draft is out there, we'll probably be reading this or at least a blurb. --Masem (t) 23:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Unless someone wants to add information about the US sanctioning Chinese officials today, it's been a few days without an update. The national security law looks like it might come in soon, which will be terrifying and warrant a blurb. Whether the Commonwealth does ship out as many Hong Kongers as they can or not might be attached to that or get its own blurb. But for now, a little quiet. Kingsif (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support it's dropped off the news. Banedon (talk) 02:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support No updates on the protest or news front, information regarding this has petered out. Gotitbro (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed Stephen 04:38, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Glasgow multiple stabbings/shooting

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Unanimous opposition – no chance.
– Sca (talk) 12:54, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(non-admin closure)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Glasgow hotel stabbings (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A man goes on a stabbing spree in Glasgow, Scotland, injuring multiple people before being shot dead by police. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: News is describing it as multiple stabbings, but all in one area so 'spree' seems appropriate. Armed police in Scotland involved. Kingsif (talk) 17:00, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Joseph2302 Please show where a stabbing in the US with two victims was posted. This has nothing whatsoever to do with nationality. 331dot (talk) 17:56, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You do realise I'm opposing this? Joseph2302 (talk) 18:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Joseph2302, be less facetious. UK bias here is just as strong if not stronger than US bias. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize, I did not realize that. 331dot (talk) 18:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Muboshgu US bias is much stronger in my experience, although there is a far too great US & UK bias anyway Joseph2302 (talk) 19:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Milton Glaser

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Article: Milton Glaser (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Munawar Hasan

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Article: Munawar Hasan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [5], [6], [7], [8]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: politician and the former President of Islamist party Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan. Ainty Painty (talk) 09:15, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 25

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June 25, 2020 (2020-06-25) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Joe Sinnott

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Article: Joe Sinnott (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hollywood Reporter, Syfy Wire
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American comic book artist known for his work with Marvel Comics. —Matthew - (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Ready now. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:12, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingsif: I found some sources for that info and added them as citations. —Matthew - (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Should be good to go, it's a good bio and has a decent update. Quite an important figure, but not Stan Lee, so I don't think it will get any real blurb arguments. Kingsif (talk) 18:51, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Liverpool F.C. win the Premier League

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Posted, nothing more useful here. If people want to debate the ITNR target, do it at ITNR. Other commentary is discouraged. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2019–20 Premier League (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Liverpool F.C. win the 2019–20 Premier League. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Liverpool F.C. win the 2019–20 Premier League, their first league title since 1990.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Liverpool F.C. win the Premier League.
News source(s): BBC Sport
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Mathematically confirmed now. Sceptre (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Though I maintain my general position described above, for this particular nom I am changing to support due to the unusually long gap between clinching and end of the season and because the article is now in slightly better shape. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 20:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My country's local media had no mention about it. But, disregarding that, why does the blurb not also provide a link to the article about the championship round itself and not just to the article about the entire season? Also, the lead is too long. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 09:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Domestic European football leagues don't have a "championship round" aka playoffs. Teams play each other twice and the team with the best record after all games are played wins the title. So that means a full season summary for this article is the only acceptable update. Howard the Duck (talk) 10:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your country's local media is irrelevant. And yes, we've noted that the target article is sub-standard. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality- article needs to be reworked so that not everything is in the lead. Agree that now is sensible time to post it, as suggesting that something could happen between now and the final match to prevent this is WP:CRYSTALBALL. Once article quality is fixed, consider this a support vote. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait until the end of the season, per WP:ITNR (which says 'the conclusion ... of the tournament ... unless otherwise specified') and per the precedent of previous years. The league isn't over yet and there are plenty of other issues still to resolve e.g. relegation, European places etc. Modest Genius talk 11:16, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's worth reiterating what I wrote in 2018:
    I think this year's [2018] Premier League posting is a great example of why we should wait until leagues finish before posting. It was originally nominated when Man City's lead became unassailable but not posted, then renominated and posted when the season concluded. In that time a) the season summary went from being a couple of uninformative paragraphs that almost entirely concentrated on City, to a detailed summary of the entire season covering all the clubs; b) the European qualification places were settled; c) the relegation places were settled; d) Man City broke a bunch of team records (most wins in a season, first team to 100 points etc.) that were worth highlighting to readers; e) the individual records (top goalscorer, player of the season etc.) were decided. As a result the article improved massively and was far more useful to readers, particularly those who don't already follow the league closely. The ITN blurb led readers to detailed information about all aspects of the season, not just the identity of the winners i.e. clicking on the bold link led to high quality content and more information than what was in the blurb itself. It was much better to wait. Modest Genius talk 11:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    As its hard to tell and I think relevant to this point, how many more matches are left to be played, and I assume that will include matches played by Liverpool as well? (I can tell this goes to end of July, but can't tell game -count). I agree on the point about potential records to be named with the conclusion of the season that may come about that we should wait - it would be different if it were one week away and no significant records or the like were at risk. --Masem (t) 13:50, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Every club has seven matches left to play.P-K3 (talk) 13:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Second dumb question: does 2nd place at the end of the event mean anything here? We're too used to "first take all" type tournament formats in the US here. --Masem (t) 14:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Finishing in the top four ensures qualification to next year's UEFA Champion's League - it makes little practical difference whether you finish second, third or fourth.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:35, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's even more important who finishes in the bottom three, as they will be expelled from the league (see promotion and relegation). That is unlikely to be decided until the final round of matches. Modest Genius talk 15:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No, it won't be in the news when this season eventually concludes. This is certainly WP:IAR territory as far as that guidance is concerned. Given that ALL reliable sources are reporting that Liverpool have won the league, this should be our cue to do the same. Remember, WP:V applies and it is trivial to verify that Liverpool have won the league. It's not up to Wikipedia to decide that they haven't. Article quality is a separate issue entirely. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and don't wait I have to agree that by the time the season is over, the winner will be old news and nobody will care. Imagine if there was no Super Bowl and the same glory as that was given based on points - how big would the news be when a team became unbeatable, and how little would people be reacting to that same announcement 30 games later? If nothing else, posting at the end of the season misrepresents the league: primarily US readers who most likely won't understand football seasons will think that posting at the end means there was a final and Liverpool just won it. But no, they have won it now. Kingsif (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Appears to be fine now that the main issues have been addresses. And post now, its "In the news" after all. No need for formalities just for the sake of it. Gotitbro (talk) 16:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support and run it now- it's the sensible time to do so, as Liverpool winning the league is the most important thing in this article. So we should run it when that fact is the news, not when the final day wimpers round in a month's time. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support now that the article has been restructured to remove the overly long lead, and updated. Looks good to go.-- P-K3 (talk) 16:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this is now very much good to go. Good work everyone involved improving the article and removing the final bar to posting. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I don't see a need to wait another four weeks because this story is in the news now as others have said. Calidum 17:21, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment ATTENTION REQUIRED FROM ADMIN PLEASE. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Stephen 23:29, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite not being in any of the suggested blurbs, the posted text ended up being: In football, Liverpool F.C. win the Premier League. "Football" should be changed to "association football". As far as I recall, we always spell out the full name of the code of football being played in ITN, and this adds clarity for readers more familiar with other codes. --LukeSurl t c 07:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment going forward, I wonder if the winning teams season article wouldn't be a better target. Also I should apologize for opposing the posing of Alex Ferguson's retirement years ago -- I had no idea that LFC couldn't win an EPL until the winningest coach in league history had stepped aside. I wonder if we should include that in the blurb? --LaserLegs (talk) 11:03, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Stale) RD: Étienne Cerexhe

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Article: Étienne Cerexhe (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [9]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Short article, but all sourced. Not that much more information about him, which is a shame Joseph2302 (talk) 17:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: John Kennedy Sr. (footballer)

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Article: John Kennedy Sr. (footballer) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ABCThe Age
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article is rubbish, and a poor tribute to one of the greats, but good enough for the front page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support One of the greats of Australian rules football. The nominator said the article is rubbish. That's still true, but it was a lot worse this morning. Several editors have made big improvements just today. Kennedy deserves a lot more content than is there now, but what is there is now much better sourced. Because of his fame in the Aussie Rules world, and now his death, more people will now be attracted to the article and make more improvements. HiLo48 (talk) 08:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support now; will probably support of the sourcing is sorted. ——Serial # 10:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Serial Number 54129: - What sourcing needs to be sorted? There are no citation needed tags in the article. I'm willing to work on it, but I at least need pointers on what the problems are you think exist. HiLo48 (talk) 11:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@HiLo48: D'oh! I mis-read the statue tablet as being a load of unsourced sentences, apologies! (No excuse, but it was a long night!) ——Serial # 14:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 24

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June 24, 2020 (2020-06-24) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
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Sports

(Closed) RD: Michael Hawley

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Stale. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:52, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Michael Hawley (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American computer programmer and pianist dies at age 58. Article needs more refs. Davey2116 (talk) 14:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I find two things rather depressing about this nomination. The first is that it has been listed for nearly three days without any comments at all. The second is that the nom has done a "drive-by listing" here without a single edit on the article to address the issues s/he identified. It would have been nice to have followed WP:SOFIXIT. As for the article itself, I think it is probably near to being postable as long as the "dubious" tag is culled. —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:43, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Margarita Pracatan

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Stale. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Margarita Pracatan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Andrew🐉(talk) 17:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 23

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June 23, 2020 (2020-06-23) (Tuesday)
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Sports

(Closed) Mexico earthquake

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Good faith nom but consensus to post is unlikely to develop. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 Oaxaca earthquake (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A magnitude 7.4 earthquake strikes Oaxaca, Mexico, killing at least ten people. (Post)
News source(s): NBC, Reuters
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Major earthquake in Mexico with several deaths. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 23:09, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there doesn't appear to be widescale damage beyond the initial reports. Gotitbro (talk) 04:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Still good to go, Look at titles: "Powerful earthquake shakes southern Mexico, at least 10 dead.", Are these limited impact and little media coverage? AP news, ABC News, National Geographic, CNN, The New York Times, The Guardian...etc!! AbDaryaee (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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(Posted) RD: Liam Treadwell

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Article: Liam Treadwell (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [10], [11]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: 2009 Grand National winner, still trying to expand it a bit more. Hoping obits will give more on personal life, which is lacking Joseph2302 (talk) 15:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Safoora Zargar

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Consensus will not develop to post. Stephen 01:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Safoora Zargar (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Safoora Zargar is granted bail at the 4th application by the Delhi High Court. She was arrested on 10 April for her part in protests against the Citizenship Amendment Act that led to the North East Delhi riots in February 2020. (Post)
News source(s): Gunasekar, Arvind (23 Jun 2020). Ghosh, Deepshikha (ed.). "Pregnant Jamia Student Safoora Zargar Gets Bail In Delhi Riots Case". NDTV. Retrieved 23 Jun 2020.
Iyer, Aishwarya S (23 Jun 2020). "Safoora Zargar Granted Bail By Delhi High Court, With Conditions". The Quint. Retrieved 23 Jun 2020.
"Safoora Zargar: Bail for pregnant India student blamed for Delhi riots", BBC News, 23 June 2020, retrieved 23 June 2020
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Zargar's arrest and her being held in prison had been covered by international media such as the BBC and Al Jazeera. There have been protests over the refusal to grant her bail. She had been held alone in a prison cell from April until today. -- Toddy1 (talk) 10:47, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) BeiDou-3 launched

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No consensus to post. Stephen 01:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: BeiDou (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The final BeiDou-3 satellite is launched, completing the BeiDou global navigation satellite system. (Post)
News source(s): [12]
Credits:

Article updated
 Banedon (talk) 06:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Serbian parliamentary election

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Article: 2020 Serbian parliamentary election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A coalition led by President Aleksandar Vučić (pictured) and his Serbian Progressive Party wins an overwhelming majority in parliamentary elections boycotted by the main opposition parties. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A coalition led by President Aleksandar Vučić (pictured) and his Serbian Progressive Party wins a majority in parliamentary elections.
News source(s): NYT Euronews Balkan Insight
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: I wasn't planning to nominate this but the article seems to be in particularly good shape, so why not highlight a decent article from a moderately underrepresented region of the world on Wikipedia. Official results are still being reported but the outcome is already clear and being reported by reliable sources. Open to suggestions or additions of altblurbs. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 03:13, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 22

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June 22, 2020 (2020-06-22) (Monday)
Business and economy

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Sports

RD: Steve Bing

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Article: Steve Bing (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Producer and former husband of Elizabeth Hurley. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Pierino Prati

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Article: Pierino Prati (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Statesman, La Repubblica
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Italian footballer, won European Championship and played the World Cup final, was leading scorer in Italian competition. Fully sourced but could of course use expansion from the (many) sources appearing today. Fram (talk) 09:51, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's now in the lede.130.233.3.21 (talk) 10:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll remove the oppose but there should really be a personal life section in this kind of article, about him, where he was born, schooled, did he marry, did he have kids, what did he do after football etc. That's where I'd expect to see his death noted too. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose going back to marginal oppose. There's literally nothing about his personal life which is a clear gap for me. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Thomas Welder

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Article: Thomas Welder (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [13]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: The article is short but I believe everything is cited. gnu57 22:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Joel Schumacher

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Article: Joel Schumacher (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [14]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Director of St. Elmo's Fire, The Lost Boys, Falling Down, Batman Forever, and Batman & Robin Jon698 (talk) 18:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 21

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June 21, 2020 (2020-06-21) (Sunday)
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(Posted) RD: Jürgen Holtz

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Article: Jürgen Holtz (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BZ
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Found a one-liner about a fascinating actor and artist, between East Berlin and the West. Much more in German, in case someone has the time to expand further. Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Angela Madsen

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Article: Angela Madsen (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Het Laatste Nieuws (Belgium), [15] Guardian]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Died 21st, but this only became known the 23rd, so please give this some time. Tragic death of Paralympic shot putter (bronze medalist) and rower (world champion), and record breaker as first woman to row some oceans. Article seems fully sourced (work of multiple people, I'm only the nominator). Fram (talk) 10:09, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Anna Blume

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Article: Anna and Bernhard Blume (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): WDR
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: I'm shocked, having known her. The news came only today, so I put it here, but she died on 18 June. I checked the sources of a mostly 2011 article, many were not there anymore, but more could be taken from some external links of when her husband died and I had no time. Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support article is in good shape, notwithstanding link rot issues. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:35, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Manchester shooting deaths

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Consensus will not develop to post. Stephen 01:30, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 Moss Side mass shooting (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Two men die in a shooting incident in Moss Side, Manchester. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Two men die in a shooting incident in Moss Side, Manchester after a gunman opens fire at a street party.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Two men die in a shooting incident in Moss Side, Manchester, United Kingdom after a gunman opens fire at a street party.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Not much in the article at the moment. Well, the UK got a shooting - BUT the UK media is overwhelmingly more interested in the stabbing below. Kingsif (talk) 18:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This looks like domestic violence and more likely looks like two drunk people accidentally shot themselves and died from their wounds (aka Darwin Award winners). I see no reason why we even have an article on this. --Masem (t) 19:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm looking at the other articles reporting on this (BBC, Guardian) and none of them talk about anyone opening fire at a car park. They said the shootings happened away from the rave. Only one source suggests even a third-party is involved at this point. --Masem (t) 19:27, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Manchester Evening News is being less conservative (tactful?) on details, but none of those say it wasn't an attack, just they're waiting on more details. There were two parties, which may be where you're confused - it didn't happen at the BLM one, but at the illegal rave later. With a murder inquiry, it seems unlikely they shot each other. Kingsif (talk) 19:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll just say the way the BBC and Guardian are reporting it are drastically undercutting any "seriousness" of the event compared to how the MEN is covering it between its two stories. Even still, a random shooting at a rave where there was clearly drugs and alcohol involved still would be a domestic crime and the type of thing ITN usually doesn't cover. Barring anything unusual in the reasonings for the shooter, this is not the type of story for ITN (in contrast to the stabbings below which may have terrorist-related reasoning). --Masem (t) 19:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, yeah, I'm not saying this is being treated anything like the stabbings - a lack of media coverage can only be blamed so much on foggy details. But I think our definitions of domestic must differ. Kingsif (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And here I was thinking it was the one in Ing-land. – Sca (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now While mass shootings with guns are rare in the United Kingdom, this is at least the fifth multiple-casualty attack in the UK since 2017 (with the other four being terrorist attacks), and the second mass shooting in that neighbourhood since 2018. While there is no number of minimum deaths necessary for ITN, I do not believe that two deaths meets notability for a country with a history of multiple-death attacks like the United Kingdom, and I do not believe the fact that the weapon is different is itself notable. Furthermore, the BBC no longer appears to be featuring the story, indicating a further lack of significance. NorthernFalcon (talk) 04:12, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Shooting at a drug-fueled party surprises nobody, not least the police who apparently knew of this going on and did nothing. I guess laws are only for people who will comply. There used to be a list of cities that were considered notable enough to not require the usual ", Country" description. I can't remember if Manchester was on it, and I can't find it at the moment.130.233.3.21 (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Yes it's unfair that events that happen in one place are treated differently than they would be were they to happen elsewhere, but unfortunately "shooting in Moss Side"—an area that's been the frontline of mob wars for decades—falls squarely into the dog-bites-man category unless there are particularly exceptional circumstances. ‑ Iridescent 11:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guess it comes down to whether it was a targeted attack (relatively common) or a random mass shooting. Nearly half of the mass shootings in the UK have happened in Moss Side, yes, but when the complete total is five (four with fatalities), there's some liberty to say it's still rare. Kingsif (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Stale) RD: Zeev Sternhell

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Article: Zeev Sternhell (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New York Times, Haaretz, Bloomberg
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Some sourcing issues. Rami R 16:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I was sorry to hear of this. It is true that there are two citation needed tags in the article, but at least one of them seems superfluous. I'll try to add some material myself later. —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Significant historical figure. – Sca (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No comments at all? —Brigade Piron (talk) 08:34, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2020 Forbury Gardens stabbings

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Consensus will not develop to post. --LaserLegs (talk) 11:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: 2020 Forbury Gardens stabbings (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Three people are killed, and another three seriously injured, in a suspected terrorist attack in Reading, United Kingdom. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A knife attack in Reading, United Kingdom results in three people killed and another three seriously injured.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Three people are killed in a knife attack in Reading, United Kingdom.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Three people are killed in a suspected terrorist attack in Reading, United Kingdom.
Alternative blurb IV: ​ A knife attack in Reading, United Kingdom leaves three dead and another three seriously injured.
News source(s): Telegraph, Independent, BBC, Reuters, The Guardian, RTVE (in Spanish), Die Welt (in German), El País (in Spanish)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Serious incident, with regular news updates and consequently regular updates to the article; top story on all UK news outlets I've checked. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 10:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, changed to 'wait' - Let's give the story some time to develop. – Sca (talk) 13:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Terrorism of this sort gets to the main page.--WaltCip-(BLM!Resist The Orange One) 14:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    "Treating the incident as terrorism-related" does not mean yet it is terrorism. It is only to allow law enforcement to evoke special powers to resolve the matter much faster than domestic crimes. We can't treat it as a "terrorist attack" yet. --Masem (t) 14:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, suspected terrorism of this sort gets to the main page.--WaltCip-(BLM!Resist The Orange One) 14:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose knife wielding maniacs going on murder frenzies is an all too common occurrence in the UK but their society is too crippled by incompetence to pass meaningful knife control legislation so all we can do when it happens is insult the victims and the country where the tragedy took place. --LaserLegs (talk) 16:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yawn. Get some new material. P-K3 (talk) 16:32, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Gun wielding maniacs going on shooting sprees is an all too common occurrence in the US but their society is too crippled by incompetence to pass meaningful gun control legislation so all we can do when it happens is insult the victims and the country where the tragedy took place. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 16:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You had to go back six years to find one that was actually posted huh? Did you read the hate and bile that was spit in the Isla Vista nom? Give it a look -- I'll bet you a coke no one rushed to the talk pages of anyone denigrating the US to advise striking their hate filled remarks. "American bias" though right? LOL --LaserLegs (talk) 22:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Take this somewhere else.  Nixinova   T   C   04:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Hilarious, I spat out my coffee. The suggestion that three notable attacks over three years is somehow an "all too common occurrence" is actually hysterical when contextualised with just the six months covered here!! Thanks for the lulz. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:09, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Pawnkingthree. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 16:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I strike my support per Bzweebl's persuasive argument. I rushed to judgment. I don't exactly oppose, but I am going neutral. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 21:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support terror attack, murders, unusual and noteworthy. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:09, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment- not supporting or opposing yet, but can someone offer me an argument for why the media bias of 3 rich world lives~300 developing world lives deserves to be represented at ITN? For example, Boko Haram killed 81 people in a single village last week[16] and I don’t think that would have been considered here. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:12, 21 June 2020 (UTC) My real objection is to the concept of news rather than its application at ITN. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:19, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Where's the article? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t fully understand the point you’re trying to make, can you elaborate? There are far more editors from the UK than from Nigeria on Wikipedia for obvious reasons. This results in systemic bias we should strive to fix, not accept as is. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You're making his point for him - there is no article because WP editors write more about what interests them. English language WP is going to be dominated by people from Anglophone countries, so this nothing burger gets an article and the BH attack doesn't. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, there is a reason we have NEVENT, that we shouldn't be writing articles on every little crime that occurs until we know that crime has a larger impact. This is meant to help to fight the bias of this nature. --Masem (t) 19:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You aren’t suggesting this is a “little crime” are you? It is not common for a group of people in a park to be randomly stabbed and the counter-terrorism unit to be called in. P-K3 (talk) 21:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    In the larger scheme of world events, to Bzweebl's point, yes, at this point. It may turn out to be more than a minor crime in the long run which then an article would be appropriate. But given that the culprit was caught and believed to have been working alone, this sounds like a very isolated case, at this point. We have to be aware of the global scope WP runs on, and that we're not a newspaper. Something like 2017 London Bridge attack has long-term effects that become clear very soon after the event, something like this does not. --Masem (t) 21:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Nonsense, it's been declared an act of terror and the individual known to security forces. ITN can't wait for "long-term effects" as they may be more than days afterwards. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Bzweebl: Whilst I agree that there is a problem with bias towards incidents in developed countries in the sources we get our information from, and therefore in Wikipedia itself, I also don't think the comparison is quite the same; the Boko Haram insurgency is an ongoing conflict, over a long period of time, whereas this is a single incident. That's not to say that I don't think that the specific killing you mention from last week wouldn't be suitable for ITN - I almost certainly would have supported its inclusion, assuming there were a sufficient number of reliable sources - and quite obviously, it is a tragedy of a grand scale; indeed, by number of lives lost, many times greater than this event, as you rightly point out. It isn't, however, quite a like-for-like comparison in terms of its context, I don't think. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 21:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) This is a great point and I thank you for bringing it up. The context of these two events are very different, and that unquestionably affects their notability even if the incomprehensible tragedy of both remains unchanged. My remaining objection to posting this nomination and other similar low-casualty terrorist incidents in the United States and Western Europe is that I don't see how the fact that they take place outside the context of any broader conflict or insurgency is enough of a reason to grant them significantly greater notability without any additional factors that contribute to long-term importance, as Masem describes above. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Which terror attacks took place in the US? And spontaneous acts of extreme violence are obviously more notable than ongoing trends in killings in a war zone, I don't understand why that would be a consideration. It's like saying we should be posting that a thousand people a day are dying of Covid 19 in Brazil. We don't because it's just "normal" at the moment. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You're right. Upon reflection, my objection is really to the concept of news rather than the application of it here at ITN. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course. I would vote to post an incident in which 81 people were killed in a heartbeat. But as already noted there is no article for it, and it wasn't nominated here at ITNC at all. So it is really a red herring per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose "Three people killed in a stabbing with possible terrorist intent" somewhere in the world is a ho-hum story. If we are to suggest greater significance BECAUSE of the location, it should be exceedingly rare there. Three notable attacks over three years is not that rare. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My prior comments notwithstanding, I'm going to flip to neutral as well. The premeditated terrorism angle is now more firmly substantiated. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:38, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from things happening in other countries, Naypta? In any case, that's not what I said - the Manchester bombing was notable for the (i) death toll, (ii) means and (iii) location. This attack doesn't really compare on any metric. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Brigade Piron: Apologies; upon rereading it, my comment came off stronger than intended. What I mean to say isn't that your comment is unreasonable; rather, that a tragedy on the scale of the Manchester Arena bombing may not be a useful benchmark, in my view, simply because same scale is so unfathomably large. Naypta ☺ | ✉ talk page | 10:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BBC does some awful location-based forwarding that makes comparing article procession very hard. I ran into this recently where I couldn't find anything corona related there and someone here pointed out that I was looking at BBC TV, when I had manually typed in bbc dot co dot you kay in the address bar. Probably what's happening here.130.233.3.21 (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 20

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June 20, 2020 (2020-06-20) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) Belmont Stakes

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Article: 2020 Belmont Stakes (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In horse racing, Tiz the Law wins the Belmont Stakes. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In horse racing, Tiz the Law wins the Belmont Stakes, which served as the initial leg of the Triple Crown for the first time.
News source(s): NYT, WSJ
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: I'm not particularly optimistic about this nomination's chances since sporting events that aren't ITNR are a hard sell around here, but we haven't had any sports posted in a while and this was the first major event in any sport in the United States since COVID-19. It also functioned as the first race of the Triple Crown this year instead of the Kentucky Derby, which is ITNR. Article is not updated yet but is otherwise in good shape. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 07:27, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What would that be? Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 17:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Royal Ascot, also June 20, most important UK horse race (arguable with the Grand National), not attended by the Queen for the first time ever. But I don't think I'd put that in ITN, either. Kingsif (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Royal Ascot considered more important than the Epsom Derby? The fact that it lacks a Wikipedia page doesn’t suggest to me a high degree of notability.Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 17:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Royal Ascot doesn't exist? (The Derby is a big but still run-of-the-mill good-for-betting horse race, AFAIK) Kingsif (talk) 18:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it doesn’t. The lede of the Wikipedia page for Epsom Derby (and to a lesser extent the fact that it’s ITN/R) suggest to me a higher degree of notability. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To not kill a point, since we could just as easily argue for posting of Newbury last week (there's a lot in horse racing right now), the Triple Crown article calls the Royal Ascot the most prestigious long-distance races in the British flat racing season, so it's probably the ideal comparison to Belmont. Seems we should wait for the Kentucky Derby and Grand National, or post all of this week's horse races. Kingsif (talk) 18:22, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Though I still think the Belmont was the most notable of all the recent horse racing events, your point is well taken. Thanks for engaging in this discussion. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gotitbro This is an American Triple Crown race, one of the top three races in the US. 331dot (talk) 22:38, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Normally, these three races occur within five weeks; this year the other two races are much later. 331dot (talk) 23:41, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How's that? 331dot (talk) 00:05, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Whoever originally decided on the wording at WP:ITNR could not have possibly envisioned that the Belmont would ever be the first race of the Triple Crown. As the guideline header states, "it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 00:27, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why should this be an exception? What is the benefit to keeping this off the box? 331dot (talk) 01:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you're interpreting the listing at ITN/R differently than I am? I'm pretty sure it means that we only post the Belmont if a horse wins the Triple Crown, not if it is one of the three races in the Triple Crown, which it always is. I apologize, I thought you were making a legalistic argument that because a horse could still technically win the Triple Crown this is ITN/R. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 03:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We've posted the Belmont if a Triple Crown is at stake, which is not always the case normally. However, it is this year because it was first(which has never happened before and I think is notable in that regard alone). I respect the difference of opinion on this. 331dot (talk) 08:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ITNR is about planning for foreseeable events. The order of these races is long-standing and firmly set, and this listing was very clearly written with the understanding that the Belmont is the third race. The clear meaning of "only if it is part of a Triple Crown" means a horse won all three races (or possibly won the first two and contended for the third). Applying this entry to this year's race is not in line with ITNR's intent. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:24, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The intent is to post this race if it is part of a Triple Crown. This year is an unusual situation not likely to be repeated where the Belmont, for the first time ever, is the leadoff race. We post the Kentucky Derby as the leadoff race for the TC every other year. 331dot (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like it was initially added by Montanabw here, removed, and then readded by me afterwards as TRM notes. 331dot (talk) 14:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Conviction of Vital Kamerhe

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No consensus to post. Stephen 03:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Articles: Vital Kamerhe (talk · history · tag) and Democratic Republic of the Congo (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A Democratic Republic of the Congo court convicted Vital Kamerhe of embezzling $48 million. (Post)
News source(s): [17]
Credits:

Article needs updating
 P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 16:05, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Awsomaw:Well, not only is $48 m a lot, but there is a difference in getting caught and not getting caught. Thank you for your input, P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 22:57, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with the above. Neither of the linked articles conveys this.130.233.3.21 (talk) 09:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but corruption in Africa is hardly a news story, being caught doing it may be of mild interest, but this is not something I would expect to see in the top 100 stories in the news of 2020. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 06:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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(Closed) Trump rally

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No way. Stephen 03:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Articles: List of post-election Donald Trump rallies (talk · history · tag) and Tulsa (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Donald Trump holds a rally in Tulsa during the COVID-19 Pandemic (Post)
News source(s): [18] [19]
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Trump's first rally since start of the Covid-19 pandemic. Its controversial -- may be it is something worth noting? P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 02:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 19

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June 19, 2020 (2020-06-19) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

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Science and technology

Sports

(Posted) RD: Vic Gilliam

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Article: Vic Gilliam (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [20]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former member of the Oregon House of Representatives and actor that died from ALS. Jon698 (talk) 21:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Nicolas Joel

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Article: Nicolas Joel (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.francemusique.fr/actualite-musicale/disparition-de-nicolas-joel-ancien-directeurs-des-operas-de-paris-et-toulouse-85098
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Just had to change tense and add two sources for his death, sad and easy. Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Sachy

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Stale. SpencerT•C 01:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Sachy (writer) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/malayalam/movies/news/director-scriptwriter-sachy-passes-away/articleshow/76450915.cms
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: I came across it trending on Twitter news JHunterJ (talk) 13:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Facebook acquires Mapillary

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Consensus will not emerge to post this. Black Kite (talk) 21:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Mapillary (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Facebook buys crowdsouced mapping company Mapillary. (Post)
News source(s): Reuters, U.S. News
Credits:

Article updated
 EugεnS¡m¡on 13:27, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Source makes it seem like routine business news, and though I am not big on tech, the Wikipedia article about Mapillary makes little noise about how big and important this company is supposed to be. There's not even a price mentioned in the source. It's worth noting that the update on this is one short sentence, while there's a whole article on the Acquisition of 21st Century Fox by Disney, a huge and complex horizontal merger that would meet In The News notability. Wallachia Wallonia (talk) 13:56, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Nowhere close to scale of something like Disney/Fox. For tech nerds, we know this is Facebook trying to complete with Google but that's not ITN level. --Masem (t) 14:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not interesting, and not mentioned in either article either, which would be a basic requirement for even considering it. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment routine sports, routine elections, routine awards shows ... almost everything we post is routine and banal. Working in private industry is how a great many people earn a living so dismissing business news automatically is a bit silly. Weak oppose for now because the Mapillary is pretty thin and there is only a one sentence update about the acquisition. Flesh it out and I'll see about supporting. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Routine" awards shows recognize achievement in a field. "Routine" elections are about choosing a government or head of state. This is just a routine business transaction. 331dot (talk) 16:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per all. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 15:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. 'Large company buys small startup for undisclosed amount' is uninspiring. Facebook has bought lots of other companies over the years; nothing in the article or the news sources makes me think this one is particularly significant. This transaction is getting no coverage outside the specialist business pages and many of those stories are regurgitated press releases (e.g. the US News link above is largely a copy-paste of the Reuters story). Modest Genius talk 15:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose posting a routine business transaction that does not set any sort of record(like value of the acquisition). 331dot (talk) 16:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Ian Holm

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Article: Ian Holm (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Needs refs; BAFTA and Tony-winning actor Kingsif (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • While I've filled out most of the filmography using the BFI citation, there's a lot of work not on there (which is fine for now), and definitely enough films/tv shows/awards nominations to create a separate filmography article if someone is so inclined. PotentPotables (talk) 13:39, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know most of our celeb bios are in poor shape but I am really saddened by how badly Holm's is here. I don't know why actor articles get passes like this on BLP that would not fly for many politicians and just speaks of a need to stress better sourcing for them across the board. --Masem (t) 14:14, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes this was an EC that I pasted back into the wrong section. Fixed now. --Masem (t) 14:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Carlos Ruiz Zafón

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Stale. SpencerT•C 01:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Carlos Ruiz Zafón (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (The Guardian)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Great Spanish novelist and the most read, worldwide appreciated. Death with relevant coverage in the news. Article needs improving. Alsoriano97 (talk) 10:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 18

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June 18, 2020 (2020-06-18) (Thursday)
Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

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Science and technology

Sports

(Posted) RD: Jules Sedney

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Article: Jules Sedney (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): De Ware Tijd from Suriname
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Sedney was the last surviving prime minister of Suriname from when it was a constituent country of the Netherlands (Dutch Guiana). He started initial independence negotiations, and served as head of the Central Bank of Suriname after independence. Joofjoof (talk) 11:10, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'm not opposed to it, but the article just went from a couple of lines to a minimum article and requires some serious copy editing, and I'm not really the best person for that job. I'm not against the idea though. KittenKlub (talk) 11:19, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Let's nominate a pragmatic politician.KittenKlub (talk) 14:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) UN Security Council Elections

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Article: 2020 United Nations Security Council election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Kenya, India, Mexico, Ireland, and Norway are elected to the United Nations Security Council as non-permanent members. (Post)
News source(s): BBC NYT Reuters
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: This is ITNR, and I have expanded the article to beyond the typical length for these articles. Though I have yet to write prose for the African Group results, I plan to do that later today unless somebody else wants to do it first. Though ITNR suggests that these are sometimes posted when the new terms begin on January 1 (even though that is less newsworthy) because it is during a slow news period, we are in a slow news period right now due to COVID-19 so I see no reason not to post the actual election results. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 09:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that it is clear from ITNR. Here is the exact wording: "In previous years, the item has been added to ITN when the new members take their seats (1 January) rather than when the results were announced (during October). This is because the elections are not usually heavily competitive, and 1 January is in the middle of a very slow news period every year." This year there were multiple heavily competitive elections and a slow news period when the results were announced. Additionally, that note seems to be referring to a usual practice rather than a consensus-based policy. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 10:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Not all that competitive, as there were only seven candidates for five spaces. Nevertheless the article is in decent shape, much better than previous years. It would be nice to get some prose into the 'day 2' section, but that's not required. I wrote that footnote on ITNR, which was intended as a guide to convention, not a hard and fast rule. We're in the middle of a slow news period right now, without having to wait until January, so I think it's fine to post early as a one-off. Modest Genius talk 11:16, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for supporting, though I’d maintain that two close races with hard-fought campaigns, including one that went to a second round of voting, is “heavily competitive” by Security Council standards. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 16:05, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Vaalserberg is a very tall mountain by Netherlands standards. Modest Genius talk 17:06, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Kirk R. Smith

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Article: Kirk R. Smith (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): UC Berkeley
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Died on June 15, but only reported on June 18. Shared the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize for his work on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report. Bloom6132 (talk) 05:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Astrid Gjertsen

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Article: Astrid Gjertsen (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [21] and [22]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former member of the Norwegian Parliament and Minister of Consumer Affairs and Administration. She resigned in 1986 due to fraudulent taxi receipts. Jon698 (talk) 22:03, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Jean Kennedy Smith

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Article: Jean Kennedy Smith (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American diplomat, U.S. ambassador to Ireland (1993–98), and last surviving sibling of John F. Kennedy, dies at age 92. Davey2116 (talk) 11:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted to RD, blurb discussion closed): Vera Lynn

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All the usual suspects and the unusual tourists have weighed in and we are no closer to reaching a consensus. Let's move on. (non-admin) --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: Vera Lynn (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  British singer and entertainer Vera Lynn (pictured) dies at the age of 103. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Iconic wartime entertainer and life-long military fundraiser Vera Lynn (pictured) dies at the age of 103, a month after her 1939 single "We'll Meet Again" hit the charts again.
Alternative blurb II: ​ British World War II and life-long singer Vera Lynn (pictured) dies at the age of 103.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Couple of citations needed, but apart from that, looks good to go Joseph2302 (talk) 08:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If their name is Margaret Thatcher or Nelson Mandela, they get posted as a blurb to ITN. Simple.--WaltCip-(BLM!Resist The Orange One) 14:26, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If it helps, Lynn got 500,000 page views yesterday. A few short of Nkurunziza's total. Then again, one day in May this year, Lynn had 100,000, so we can't compare. Kingsif (talk) 07:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite clear what the test is. It's when there's substantial coverage of the death itself, not just standard obituaries of their life, so much so that we can have a Death and funeral of Margaret Thatcher article and a Death of Nelson Mandela article.-- P-K3 (talk) 14:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Or a Death of Carrie Fisher ... no, wait. Black Kite (talk) 14:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Which is precisely why that one was so controversial at the time and is generally regarded as a mistake now.-- P-K3 (talk) 15:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Or rather, it shows that the "Thatcher/Mandela test" imposes far too high a bar on the coverage of the death. Under that test, the deaths of Prince and Stephen Hawking wouldn't have been posted because there's no Death of Prince or Death of Stephen Hawking article; but the coverage of those deaths, while not enough to merit separate articles, was very much on par with the non-death blurbs we normally post. That's why I think the test proposed by Andrew above is good, i.e., does the death blurb exceed the blurb it displaces. Davey2116 (talk) 15:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not saying there has to be a separate article, just that if the level of coverage and reaction to the death means there plausibly could be one, that’s a good indicator of the standard. P-K3 (talk) 15:46, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My reason for supporting a blurb here in Wikipedia terms is that Aretha Franklin had a blurb, and Vera Lynn easily matches her stature and success to meet the blurb criteria of industry impact. If you also consider 'wartime entertainment' as an industry or at least a field of work, Vera Lynn is undeniably the very apex of such and is still the standard for comparison to other singers in the field, like Katherine Jenkins. (In less policy-based reasoning, at least in the UK, the news has overtaken both the COVID-19 news and the 80th anniversary of the Appeal of 18 June, with Lynn's songs basically the only music played on the radio all day, and it seems obvious because it's Vera Lynn). Kingsif (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The death of Pierre Nkurunziza does not reference the Thatcher/Mandela test because the reason it was posted was that it was a change in a country's head of state. NorthernFalcon (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the death of a sitting head of state was blurb-worthy as default? Kingsif (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not codified, but it's a defacto standard. --LaserLegs (talk) 16:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD only – Elderly singer dies of old age at 103. Historically compelling but, sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing this as widely significant after so many years. – Sca (talk) 14:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb (when sourced). There is no such thing as the Thatcher/Mandela test, we have posted a number of less iconic figures over the years, and Vera Lynn is iconic. Black Kite (talk) 14:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb as very much in the news. She at least deserves to be on RD. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 15:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • IAR support blurb if and when the sourcing issues are resolved. Under normal circumstances I'd oppose "elderly person dies of old age" in every case other than current heads of state (and yes, I'd have opposed both Thatcher and Mandela), but this is a unique case; Vera Lynn was the last person still alive who played a significant part in the Second World War, and as such is getting greatly disproportionate news coverage; at the time of writing she's the lead story on literally every UK news site (she's even the top non-financial story on the Financial Times website), and is above-the-fold on all the Aussie and Canadian news sites I've checked. (She's even on the front page—albeit not the top story—on the Irish Times website, and Ireland didn't even participate in the war.) ‑ Iridescent 15:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    If a blurb is posted her role in the war should be mentioned, “singer and entertainer dies” isn’t much more information than an RD entry and doesn’t really convey the significance. If the news coverage is disproportionate, that’s a good sign a blurb may appropriate. P-K3 (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD and blurb if the discography refs get sorted JW 1961 Talk 15:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality, oppose blurb. - Indefensible (talk) 16:10, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Our article does a poor job of explaining why we expect this person to be one of the five or six most significant people to die this year. The proposed blurb doesn't even try to. —Cryptic 16:15, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've added an altblurb proposal with a bit more impact. It may be unusual to mention the fact about the single, but I don't think an artist has ever had a single re-release over 80 years after the original and hit the charts, still in the artist's lifetime. It's also a testament to her enduring popularity and success over that time, and still in her lifetime. (edit conflict) Kingsif (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now on article quality. Once referencing issues are resolved Support RD / Oppose blurb. We have turned down more significant entertainment figures for blurbs because they weren't Nelson Mandela or Margaret Thatcher (a ridiculous standard, but there we are). -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment and discography should all be referenced. Kingsif (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb once up to standard. Definitely top of her profession in her time, and still making the news even last month. As others have said above, the Mandela/Thatcher test is meaningless. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 17:10, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb- never heard of her & not a world-transforming leader. Guy in the Mall (talk) 17:35, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb A major Second World War cultural icon who beat out the likes Bing Crosby to be the most beloved entertainer during the war. A British icon . The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb If taking the most recent Little Richard death as precedent, I don't think Vera Lynn is notable enough. Aretha made it, but more recently Little Richard didn't make it. Awsomaw (talk) 17:49, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted to RD as sourcing has been addressed. Blurb discussion should continue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:11, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb- the meaning of the “Thatcher/Mandela” standard continues to escape me as those are two individuals of drastically different importance relative to one another, but if Little Richard doesn’t qualify for a blurb then a fortiori Vera Lynn doesn’t either. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 18:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb The notion of a "Thatcher/Mandela" standard has been misconstrued here, I think, into some level of "supernotability" that doesn't really exist. As I have interpreted it, it's about the magnitude of response following the death. When Thatcher and Mandela died, there was MASSIVE response. Other deaths that have had major outpourings from society in one way or another include Prince, Bowie, and Carrie Fisher. It's not that the person who died is somehow more important than other notable people who died, but it's about the coverage. What I see for Vera Lynn right now is every publication has their own obit article for her, which are mostly the same thing just written by different people. But what is there beyond the obits? For the five deaths I've mentioned here (and a number of others that are escaping me at the moment), there was lots and lots of coverage. With Lynn, all I'm seeing beyond the obits is this one piece which is more about "We'll Meet Again" has taken on a life of its own. That to me is not a deep enough celebration or examination of Lynn's life to merit a blurb. That's how I'd codify this "standard". – Muboshgu (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Muboshgu: They literally stopped reporting on COVID-19 in the UK, and barely bothered showing Emmanuel Macron visiting London for the 80th anniversary of a turning point for France in WW2 (somewhat ironically given Lynn's own support for it). The overwhelming majority of songs on the radio were Lynn's, and she got two new reflective specials on TV the same day. The government briefing opened with a tribute, and replays of the recent Queen's Speech that referenced her abounded. Apparently, similar responses in Australia and Canada happened. In short, I think you're somehow just not seeing the lots and lots of coverage that is out there. Kingsif (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are currently six articles on the BBC website. There are even four in The Guardian. I daren't look at the tabloids. Black Kite (talk) 21:38, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Daily Mail's front cover is "Queen 'very, very sad' over Dame Vera Lynn's death: Her Majesty sends 'deepest condolences'", and I'm surprised there's not a mention of the war. Kingsif (talk) 06:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb; I don't see how she has the same global significance as most figures who get blurbs when they die of old age. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • If users aren't seeing Lynn's global importance (I'm not going to be snarky about the world war thing), what about a blurb like "Iconic wartime entertainer and life-long military fundraiser Vera Lynn (pictured), the oldest person to have a charting album and single, dies at the age of 103." Guinness WR? Or the fact she was the first artist not from the US to have a #1 in the US? (In-depth tribute/career article in The Guardian) Kingsif (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb clearly someone super-notable as an entertainer whose death has been publicly mourned by the Queen, our future King, the Prime Minister, the leader of the Opposition, Sir Paul, Sir Cliff etc etc etc. I despise "long career = super notable" claims, but this is different, and the tributes are testimony to that. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb It seems the supports here are all going the IAR route, which is fine if there is consensus. She rather clearly does not meet the standards we have set. I'm seeing a strong parallel to Bob Hope. Hope was also a beloved "national treasure" sort, commanding national prime-time audiences across six decades. But he was certainly not a "transformative world leader" in his field, nor was Lynn in hers. GreatCaesarsGhost 21:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Good one. Bob Hope died about 18 years before we had RD. If he was nominated now, I imagine it would be blurb all the way to the bank. It's like pretending that if Larry King died, no-one would try to blurb it. Try again! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:36, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Larry King is no Nelson Mandela ... I'd oppose, even if it were pointless. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    True. I'm not sure why Larry King should have a blurb in particular. No doubt he will get one, because of reasons, but if we are to uphold the principle of blurbs for old-age deaths being very rare, then he shouldn't really get one any more than Kirk Douglas or Vera Lynn. His reach hasn't been international - I've heard of him myself, from across the pond, but don't know really anything more than that he was a talk-show host.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment thank goodness for RD. Do you remember when this was the kind of debate that happened for every single death of a person with a Wikipedia article? Wow. No applause required of course....! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb per comments by Kingsif, The Rambling Man, and Voice of Clam and others. Comparable in stature to several of the musicians posted as blurbs. --Inops (talk) 22:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't know her through WWII, of course, just through Pink Floyd. But in a very balanced discussion like this, let's defer to the judgement of the majority of UK editors the way they occasionally defer to US editors about US icons. I trust them that this is a very big deal. Plus, we need a new picture, plus the oldest blurb is more than 10 days old. If nothing else, young editors might see it's a blurb, click, and learn something about a fast-disappearing generation. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb per the unusual level of coverage highlighted by Iridescent and Kingsif. If the Prime Minister is leading the tributes, that’s a good sign it’s above the normal RD levels. I prefer the altblurb which explains her significance. P-K3 (talk) 22:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Blurb comment if we are going with a blurb, the current altblurb is far too long + detailed for a RD. I have provided alt2 to try to capture her relevance to WWII which is what I glean as her key importance in what we can say in as few words as possible. --Masem (t) 22:57, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment IAR blurbing makes it essentially a number's game. US wins out for now, which isn't that big a deal since the rest of the world will have heard to some degree of whatever is huge in the US or the UK. I wonder how Europe/America will feel about it once South Asia gains the numbers to ensure everything Bollywood gets to the main page. On the other hand, if prime minister's tribute is going to be the standard, that would be almost all notable deaths in Nepal, and there are 100 other countries even smaller. Usedtobecool ☎️ 23:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There seems to be support but not consensus for blurb posting. Blurbs are supposed to be rare and given for "major figures, including transformative world leaders in their field," however it is not guaranteed even then. Compared to the other noted death of the same date, Jean Kennedy Smith, is Lynn clearly more notable in meeting that threshold? It seems Lynn was a major figure in the field of British music, but one could say that Smith was also a "major figure" in the field of the Irish peace process and similarly deserves a blurb. FWIW, Google has 47M results for "Vera Lynn" versus 60M for "Jean Kennedy Smith." There have also been other notable individuals including heads of state who have been in RD without a blurb, and it should be clear that Lynn had more encyclopedic value (i.e. notability) in order to be posted. Based on both lack of consensus and questionable order of notability, it would be better to be conservative and refrain from posting a blurb in my opinion. - Indefensible (talk) 23:19, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed. We should always err on the side of not not blurbing old age deaths because that's what RD is for. There might be a slight majority in support, but with the amount of opposition it's not going to fly. Someone should put it out of its misery and close the thread. I say this as a Brit myself, and while there has been the usual tributes and coverage, that will die down fairly quickly, I just don't see this as the major all-encompassing death that would dominate the headlines for days, like Thatcher or Mandela would.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • See, I'd probably listen to blurb arguments for Kennedy Smith, but I have to say I wouldn't support them (based on the fact half her notability is 'Kennedy', which isn't really anything she did. Lynn, on the other hand, had a 97-year career all her own). Kingsif (talk) 02:29, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb Floquenbeam is very diplomatic, but sort of assumes that ITN is comprised of US & UK editors. If that were the case then yeah, but Wikipedia is a global work. UK icons should not be posted per se, and neither should US icons. They need something more. Banedon (talk) 01:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You too are making an assumption, that Vera Lynn is purely a UK icon. Your assumption is wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 02:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Banedon - HiLo48 is correct, think more Commonwealth than UK and you get a better idea of her area of influence. Mjroots (talk) 03:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Mjroots: You might have a narrow view of the Commonwealth. For example India is a member of the Commonwealth, and a brief look at an Indian newspaper shows no coverage. Same goes for a Nigerian newspaper, etc. Banedon (talk) 03:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just saw this, of course a blurb. She's Vera Lynn! Her songs helped win a war. The short blurb should do, although the alternate (by removing "and life-long military fundraiser" for brevity) is a better summary of her historical importance. Not sold on having a photograph but maybe for a day so readers everywhere can either honor or discover her. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, the "test" is a "yes" answer to the question, "could an article on the person's death and/or funeral be a standalone article?" Abductive (reasoning) 05:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb per Muboshgu. I'm a yank, so feel free to rake me over the coals for this if you wish, but I'm just not seeing enough global coverage or general significance to music at large. Though I would also like to add I think "tests" that come up in these sorts of discussions should be ignored, especially not Thatcher/Mandela, which, in addition to being 7 years old, has been violated enough as to be (rightfully) meaningless. Nohomersryan (talk) 05:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lynn's fame is for far more than "just" music. HiLo48 (talk) 08:38, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb This does not rise to the level where blurb is needed, we have RD for this. – Ammarpad (talk) 07:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb a British icon whose deaths was covered in newspapers in many countries. If she were American, I'm sure she'd have been posted by now, but unfortunately the American-centric bias of parts of Wikipedia is one again displaying itself. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stats As usual on such occasions, our readership doesn't care what ITN thinks and has flocked to the Vera Lynn article in large numbers, so that its readership was greater than all other ITN items combined, including the pandemic and the protests. The blurb about Pierre Nkurunziza was read by comparatively few readers again. "There is nothing as stale as yesterday's news". Andrew🐉(talk) 10:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    For the popularity section, please see WP:TOP25. This is WP:ITNC. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly. ITN is not popular; it is routinely stale and dusty because its primary process is based on personal opinions and this tends to obstruct postings so that its productivity is now pathetic. The only part which functions at a proper pace is RD and that's because it was reformed to eliminate the peanut gallery's pontification. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    You do realise that Vera Lynn actually was posted to the main page, don't you? Please find the popular pages at WP:TOP25. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Andrew is agreeing with you, TRM. I'm not sure what the argument is about.--WaltCip-(BLM!Resist The Orange One) 12:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It may be something to consider that a blurb for Lynn wouldn't be bumping any event out of the box, but a much less newsworthy death with a 100x less trafficked bio. Kingsif (talk) 10:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb An internationally well-known figure in music and politics (just because she wasn't as well-known in the US, doesn't imply the case is the same for everywhere else), was still generating important news coverage merely weeks ago (ironically for reasons related to TRM's signature), and has knocked all COVID-19 and international politics coverage off the majority of UK broadsheet press today. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    On a point of order, the point about broadsheet coverage doesn't appear to be true. Vera hasn't made the front page of the Times or the FT at all, and is featured on the Telegraph and the Guardian only with a banner and a picture. The main stories are all still about COVID-19 or politics. The tabloids have mostly dominated their front pages to her though. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 12:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A standard I've always found helpful is whether the death in question is making headlines outside the country they came from. I'm not seeing that here, and I have generally seen it when blurbs are justified. FTR I checked the Sydney Morning Herald, the NYT, Al Jazeera, and The Hindu, and this death hadn't made it to the homepage of any. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think The Rambling Man and Flo make pretty compelling cases for why this should be upgraded to a blurb even if some editors (including myself honestly) are unfamiliar with her. I would note, however, that Vera_Lynn#Death is probably too short at the moment.Calidum 15:42, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, oppose blurb. If Little Richard didn't get a blurb last month, I don't see why Lynn should get one now. (I would argue both should get one, but we should be consistent.) My concern about the quality of the update in Lynn's article still stands as well. Calidum 15:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to log in.--WaltCip-(BLM!Resist The Orange One) 19:56, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ignorance is no excuse, etc... - SchroCat (talk) 20:16, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an excuse - it is implicitly saying that she's not so well known ("household name") as other people. Also, to what does the "etc" in your comment refer? Chrisclear (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do do we only have blurbs on people you have heard of? Lynn is a fairly well known individual with, as has been seen, obits and mentions of her death in papers around the world. Just because you have not heard of her does not make her any less notable, or any more or less deserving of a blurb - and I say this as someone who has opposed a blurb. If we only !vote based on ignorance then we don't do anyone any favours. - SchroCat (talk) 22:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it's always mildly amusing that people think by telling us they've never heard of iconic individuals somehow strengthens their argument where all it does is undermine their commentary as being an exemplar of pure ignorance. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 17

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June 17, 2020 (2020-06-17) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Closed) RD: Tariq Aziz

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Closed, too late. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:53, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Tariq Aziz (Pakistani personality) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [25][26][27][28][29]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Ainty Painty (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Rayshard Brooks

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Not going up as an RD, consensus strongly against a blurb --LaserLegs (talk) 12:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Rayshard Brooks (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  The officers involved in the Killing of Rayshard Brooks were issued warrants. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ none, would just be "recent death"
News source(s): [31][32][33][34][35]
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: 10 warrants were just issued in the case of Rayshard Brooks. It seems that this article has not been updated, but once it has I think it would be suited to be In the News. NOTE: AS OF WHEN I AM POSTING THIS, THIS IS STILL RELATIVELY NEW.  P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 19:58, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb I don't think RD is appropriate since the article is about the killing, not the individual. However, the killing, the ensuing protests, and today's charges make this notable enough for a blurb. Davey2116 (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Davey2116:Yes, you are correct the article is actually entitled the Killing of Rayshard Brooks, but I think this still falls under R.D. criteria. The R.D. tag could be removed if there is enough consensus. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 20:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure exactly what you mean, but I think I agree with you. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 20:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support this too. Maybe something like
Protests break out across the United States and elsewhere following the police killings of George Floyd in Minneapolis and Rayshard Brooks in Atlanta.
If we're going with this, then it'd be good to have a section in the protests article about Rayshard Brooks. Davey2116 (talk) 21:02, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 21:04, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just the thing is that the George Floyd is a little too old to be in the news. I obviously would be ok with keeping the George Flyod part but what if we made it about the officers involved having warrants issued? Ex:
The officers involved in the Killing of Rayshard Brooks were issued warrants on June 6th.
P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 21:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am open to both! P,TO 19104 (talk) (contributions) 21:30, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Willie Thorne

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Article: Willie Thorne (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC Sport
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Mjroots (talk) 09:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cite the red links, scroll back. Sources for the yellow, green, brown, blue, pink, and black... Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Poor Willie Thorne, his hair's all gawn. Perhaps I aught to chalk it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:39, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The events all link to their own articles which are cited. Obviously not ideal, but possibly satisfactory. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:23, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This has, sadly, been a long standing issue with these particular graphs. However, as stated, they are implicitly cited to the articles themselves. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr.

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Too late. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:53, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Eduardo Cojuangco Jr. (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ABS-CBN News; Manila Bulletin
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former chairman and CEO of San Miguel Corporation. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 00:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 16

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June 16, 2020 (2020-06-16) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Mohammad Asghar

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Too late. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Mohammad Asghar (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Wales Online, BBC, ITV
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Welsh politician, died in office. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 18:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose While referenced, article doesn't have much about what the subject accomplished in his political career. What's there is mostly election results and controversy, so at present, it's a tad unbalanced. SpencerT•C 18:27, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Mike McCormick (pitcher)

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Article: Mike McCormick (pitcher) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press; San Francisco Chronicle; MLB.com
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Died on June 13, but only reported on June 16. Bloom6132 (talk) 20:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Bombing of the Inter-Korean Liaison Office

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Consensus will not develop to post the demolition of a building. Stephen 00:54, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Inter-Korean Liaison Office (talk · history · tag) and Bombing of the Inter-Korean Liaison Office (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ On 16 June 2020, North Korea blows up the Inter-Korean Liaison Office which was established in association with South Korea, resulting in tensions between the two countries (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ North Korea blows up the Inter-Korean Liaison Office.
News source(s): BBC, BBC, NDTV
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Currently developing Abishe (talk) 11:46, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's fundamentally flimsy crystalballery. Nothing's going to happen. Nothing ever happens. Even with the infamous Singapore summit, nothing got done, and the Hanoi summit was even more worthless. I'm waiting to see boots on the ground enter another country before we can say there's any actual global implications. --WaltCip (talk) 18:02, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No need to get scatological about it, 54129. – Sca (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: John Madigan

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Article: John Madigan (politician) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sydney Morning Herald
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian, former Senator died aged 53, complications from cancer. Looks a decently referenced candidate for RD JW 1961 Talk 10:55, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 15

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June 15, 2020 (2020-06-15) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) Maria Ressa conviction

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Article: People of the Philippines v. Santos, Ressa and Rappler (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the Philippines, Rappler CEO Maria Ressa is convicted of cyberlibel. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In the Philippines, Rappler CEO Maria Ressa becomes the second person to be convicted of cyberlibel.
Alternative blurb II: ​ As part of a "pattern of intimidation" against the Philippine press, Rappler executive editor Maria Ressa is convicted of cyberlibel.
News source(s): NYT AP
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: I'm a non-Filipino who has only read a couple articles about this just now and I understand it is a controversial subject so feel free to correct me if wrong, but it appears that she is the most prominent journalist in the Philippines and this outcome is a new low for press freedom under Duterte. The National Union of Journalists of the Philippines said the verdict "basically kills freedom of speech and of the press." Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 03:40, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Bzweebl: Wow, thanks for including my article in the nom! (People of the Philippines v. Santos, Ressa and Rappler) I wish I had more time to work on it tonight... Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 04:13, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, thanks for creating it! Watching your Rappler interview now :) Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 05:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, there is a non-zero chance I will become the third person convicted of cyberlibel and the first in absentia. Lucky me—quite the exclusive club! Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 05:55, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wow I totally missed that part of the story, I was watching an old interview. I hope there will be change in the Philippines soon and you have the option to safely return in the future. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 06:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I added background about the cyberlibel law to the beginning of the arrest section, and there already is information about the article in question in that same paragraph. I agree that the case would be a better target if expanded, but I don't know of any reason why there would be a problem with using Ressa's article as the target. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:14, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@LaserLegs: FYI, People of the Philippines v. Rappler, et al. was expanded and is now the target.   Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 23:26, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I'm not familiar with the Filipino judicial system: is Ressa out of appeals and this is the final judgement? In the past we've posted sentencing, but I'm not sure if this is the notable event for this story. SpencerT•C 19:33, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The case will be appealed. I understand both positions on this, as right now is probably when the story will receive the most news coverage but if it is not a certainty the verdict will be upheld then it could make sense to wait in some cases. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a way for us to hint at the "persecution of the press" angle without BIAS? That seems to be the story here. I would support posting now rather than later, but there are a few CNs. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added an altblurb that vaguely tries to do that. Note that although this is the second conviction, the notability of the event is largely because of her fame. I fixed the CN tags. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment- I may be slightly overreacting, but the fact that this nomination has not received any !votes in nearly 24 hours (notwithstanding the constructive comments above) while four other nominations have been resolved is suggestive of the subtle (though unintentional) ways that systemic bias affect ITN. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bzweebl: You aren't overreacting at all. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 11:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's some bias derived from the lack of clarity for foreign editors. Speaking for myself, I would not support a short article with CNs. Separately, I also refrain from meaningless votes, such as opposing an article with no support (as in this case). This is more of a "wait" vote. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:06, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah completely agreed, I had no problem with your comment. My “notwithstanding” was meant to be interpreted as “aside from” rather than “despite.” Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 17:43, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Although I admittedly am not super well-versed in this subject matter, this seems to be a fairly notable event, as it's drawn articles from not only the New York Times and AP (as linked in the nomination) but also BBC, CNN, CBS, and plenty of other news sources, and "basically [killing] freedom of speech and of the press," as the nominator mentioned, seems to be notable enough for ITN to me. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:01, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose On the basis that the finality of the case still hinges on the appeals court. Will support nom if this is being brought back after the appeal is heard and decided upon. – robertsky (talk) 05:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree Robertsky. I edit in the area of Philippine law extensively. Cases drag on for years. This is when it's getting a lot of attention. There is a chance that the case will never be back in the news. For example, Duterte could lose and a new Congress could repeal the law, rendering the case moot and academic. If Duterte remains in power, this case is very unlikely to be overturned on appeal. See Disini v. Secretary of Justice, the Court approves of this law. It will first go to the Court of Appeals, where it is almost certain that Judge Estacio-Montesa's ruling will be upheld. Actually, I'm concerned the CA will find Rappler corporately liable to. Then, the SC will hear it, and they won't be sympathetic. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 11:05, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'm satisfied with the article now. The timing issue here is a blind spot for ITNC that we must be conscious of - we often have consensus for significance, but opinions on timing are so split that no one event garners sufficient support. The way to handle this (IMO) is to consider the possible outcomes (as noted by Psiĥedelisto) and (unless the latter events are clearly preferred) error on the side of posting sooner rather than later. GreatCaesarsGhost 14:06, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am ambivalent about this but would note that neither blurb is very good. It is the effects rather than the conviction that is potentially ITN-worthy. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Brigade Piron and Bzweebl: Please take a look at ALT2. I spent all night expanding People of the Philippines v. Santos, Ressa and Rappler, and hope that this will be posted sooner rather than later. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 15:35, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Psiĥedelisto: The standards are different for RD and blurb nominations. RD is more or less automatic assuming that the article quality is up to scratch. A couple of supports with no opposition and the posting admins own review being positive is generally enough. However, blurbs have a higher bar and require a clear consensus that I am not seeing here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem: Oh, okay. Thank you for that explanation. Excuse my ignorance, turns out I really was missing something major about how ITN operates. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 23:33, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No problem and thank you for your contributions to the project. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is my first time participating in ITN, and I got here due to Wikipedia talk:Tambayan Philippines#Discussion at WP:ITN/C#Maria Ressa conviction. I agree with the supporters above that this is notable enough to be included in ITN. As the second successful cyberlibel conviction in Philippine history, one of the convicted being a well-known journalist who is critical of Duterte, the case being covered by several local and international news outlets, and the trial finishing in a quick eight months instead of being very lengthy like 3 years, I think it passes my own standard of notability and significance. The article is also well-written and well-referenced.
I prefer Alternative blurb II to be used in the ITN, though it might be less neutral, so I'm also fine with the first Alternative blurb. It might be better anyway for the first Alternative blurb to be used, as I don't want to see another stupid social media post, this time calling Wikipedia "delawan" (Filipino for yellowtard). The main blurb is too dull and downplays the significance of this event, so I would oppose using that. --Pandakekok9 (talk) 02:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Alt 1. SpencerT•C 16:01, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose current blurb wording I think that the currently worded blurb makes this sound like a typical trial conviction, whereas most of the rest of the world sees her conviction as a violation of human rights, and that isn't represented at all in the blurb. While it is controversial content, choosing not to include the controversy in the blurb is itself biased, as we legitimize the conviction and the government by normalizing it. Perhaps a neutral way to reference the controversy would be to add "In a Philippine court case about the freedom of the press," but perhaps another editor could word that better. NorthernFalcon (talk) 18:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It seems Stephen changed it to match with the main blurb, instead of alt 1 which is the consensus formed here. Can't blame him though, because he based it on Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors#Errors with In the news (permalink). But it would have been better if they had consulted us first. Pandakekok9 (talk) 02:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2020 China–India skirmishes

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Article: 2020 China–India skirmishes (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Five Chinese and three Indian soldiers die in hand to hand combat during an ongoing border dispute in Ladakh. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Five Chinese soldiers and three Indian soldiers are killed in hand to hand combat during border skirmishes in Ladakh which started on 5 May 2020.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Three Indian, and five Chinese soldiers are killed in a border skirmish.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Skirmishes along the Line of Actual Control between China and India result in multiple deaths.
News source(s): BBC, NDTV, Washington Post
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: "The deaths are believed to be the first in decades in a confrontation between the two powers"BBC, "not a single shot has been fired between the two countries along the border for over 50 years" (SCMP) DTM (talk) 08:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) SCOTUS rules on Title VII for gays/transgender

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Posted and consensus will remain as such. No need for further commentary. Stephen 02:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Bostock v. Clayton County, Georgia (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In a landmark case, the U.S. Supreme Court rules that Title VII employment protections of the 1964 Civil Rights Act include protections for gay and transgender individuals. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The U.S. Supreme Court rules that gay and transgender people are protected from employment discrimination.
News source(s): CNN, BBC, AP, NYT, WX Post, L.A. Times, Reuters, AFP
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: I know that US is by far not the first country /region with LBGT/Trans rights for employees, and we don't want to be going to track every country w/ employment rights as w/ marriage, but in the current climate (adding that it is Pride Month by coincidence) this is a extremely surprising and important decision. I am waiting for some more analysis from 3rd parties on the salient points on the decision to flesh out that but its all updated (I've been tending to this and the two related cases). Masem (t) 15:10, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Those 21 states represent at least 2/3 of the population. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:27, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But half of all LQBTQ people in the US live in states with no employment protection. Whichever way you try and spin it this is a significant ruling.-- P-K3 (talk) 20:22, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support How many people live in Burundi? Maybe we should make a rule that editors shouldn't oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country. This argument applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive. GreatCaesarsGhost 21:12, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Ad Orientem. Not of international impact, and only affects a minority of people in the US. Susprised this was posted within three hours of nomination too. That's normally too little time for consensus to form, except in very obvious cases.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:40, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support Would normally oppose internal politics from a single country, but this is on the front page of most news sources over here as well, and we have posted such issues before (i.e. Brexit vote). Issues over and above a simple ruling that lead back to items such as supposed right-wing loading of the Supreme Court. It is unlikely to have major ramifications outside the US but given the influence over world politics, especially in an election year as it related to DT's authority, I think this is worth posting. Black Kite (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support! – Very major. This "add the words" debate has been going on for decades. (I speak as one who formerly worked for a U.S. state's Human Rights Commission.) The ramifications transcend U.S. borders, as this long overdue decision may spur change elsewhere, though alas not everywhere. (At least it will nullify various incomplete state human rights statutes.) – Sca (talk) 21:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting oppose per AO. No international significance. It's hardly on the front page of most news sources either - that is still dominated by the coronavirus. Banedon (talk) 22:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support per above supports. Notable decision that is in major news outlets. ZettaComposer (talk) 23:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting oppose as per AO. Not of international significance, violates WP:CSB. --Varavour (talk) 01:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting that WP:CSB states, “this project concentrates upon remedying omissions...rather than protesting against inappropriate inclusions.” P-K3 (talk) 01:29, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting confusion Americans supporting this might know, but as a non-American, I still have no idea what this is about. I'm not opposing the posting, again because I still have no idea what this is about. (Maybe I would if I did.) The US-centrism here is in using local political and other language that is not clear to the rest of the world. HiLo48 (talk) 01:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Workers can no longer be fired simply for being gay or transgender. That’s basically it. I concede there’s some jargon in the original blurb but I don’t see what is confusing about the altblurb.P-K3 (talk) 02:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting oppose. Surprising ruling, yes, but has little to no relevance outside of American law. — Goszei (talk) 01:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support. This is a catastrophe for anti-homosexuals around the world, who rely on financial, "moral", and legal support from US politicians and religious leaders. Abductive (reasoning) 02:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 14

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June 14, 2020 (2020-06-14) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

  • At least 19 people are killed and more than 172 injured Saturday after a liquefied gas tanker exploded on a Chinese highway near the city of Wenling. Close to 100 fire trucks responded. Some people are still missing. (UPI)

Health and environment

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Pierre Lumbi

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Article: Pierre Lumbi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Reuters
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Congolese politician. COVID. - Indefensible (talk) 01:23, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Noel Kelly (rugby league)

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Article: Noel Kelly (rugby league) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Sydney Morning Herald; National Rugby League
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Sushant Singh Rajput

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Article: Sushant Singh Rajput (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): indiatoday
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Actor Sushant Singh Rajput Commits Suicide Mr.Mani Raj Paul - talk 09:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 13

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June 13, 2020 (2020-06-13) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) Polish invasion of Czech Republic

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Consensus will not develop to post. Stephen 02:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: Polish invasion of Czech Republic (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Polish Defence ministry admitted the accidental invasion of the Czech Republic. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Poland accidentally invades the Czech Republic.
News source(s): [36][37]
Credits:
 Chuka Chief (talk) 19:30, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Ongoing Removal: 2019–20 Hong Kong protests

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No consensus to remove at this time. Stephen 01:26, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2019–20 Hong Kong protests (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item removal (Post)
Nominator's comments: Main article stale. June timeline "sub-article" is orange tagged for refs and the only update since June 6th is a one-liner on the 12th "Police detained dozens of protesters as crowds gathered to mark the anniversary of the start of the protests.". Stale. Not being regularly updated with new, pertinent information as stipulated in Wikipedia:In_the_news#Ongoing_section. LaserLegs (talk) 00:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I've been updating the Hong Kong national security law article, which is related and in the protests navbox. In today's news: the British accuse the Chinese of torturing their diplomat. Announcement that the HK police are going to start 're-educating' residents. BBC expects law to come in this month. I don't think it's gone stale. Kingsif (talk) 02:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and wait, per Kingsif. In addition to the national security law being enacted later this month, July 1 is just around the corner and the 2020 Hong Kong legislative election is scheduled for September. This issue isn't going to die away anytime soon. —Bloom6132 (talk) 06:11, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose An update on the 12 is not stale, and that's only one sub-article of a massive topic that is clearly in the news. This repeated attempt to remove this is getting tiresome. --Masem (t) 06:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • June 6: wall of unsourced text. June 7: Nothing. June 8: Nothing. June 9: Nothing. June 10: Nothing. June 11: Nothing. June 12: A one liner about "dozens of people". This is the exact opposite of "regular updates". I'm just following the guidelines supporters ignoring them has become most tiresome. --LaserLegs (talk) 09:31, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose very much still in the news, very much still of interest to our readers. If lack of content is a problem, WP:SOFIXIT. Main page exposure apparently is used to update and maintain articles so the quality is somewhat secondary to the "in the news"-ness and "what our readers are looking for"-ness. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose WP:SOFIXIT. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 10:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A) Quality is king; what is in the news or of interest to readers is secondary. B) When we show a very long term event in Ongoing, we need to quickly show why the item is STILL listed. If it's difficult to do that in the main article because of WP:BALASP or WP:RECENT, the sub-article makes sense. But then the sub-article needs to be maintained. C) I don't understand how we can argue the article is fine and still demand that LaserLegs FIXIT. D) Main page exposure can help keep articles evergreen, but is not used to showcase articles that need help. Quite the opposite. GreatCaesarsGhost 11:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    A) when deciding to post, sure, but seldom after posting. B) It's obvious why it's listed, it's in the news still and people want to find it. C) Only Laserlegs is saying it's NOT fine, so SOFIXIT is perfectly apt D) I'm afraid that argument is somewhat out of touch. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:27, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Still going on, still significant, still in the news. – Sca (talk) 12:36, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - valid item to keep in Ongoing as protests are still happening AFAIK. The main article linked, 2019–20 Hong Kong protests, seems pretty good in terms of referencing. - Indefensible (talk) 19:12, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The current bold link is only good for a general background of the event in the broadest sense. It is receiving updates, but the particular ones discussed here are not found in the article (or if they refer to Cheng, that happened last year). The in-article links to various timelines are poor, and a single inconsequential sentence on the 12th cannot carry the entire Ongoing entry. This is preceded by 15 paragraphs without any references whatsoever. Using such an article as a basis for keeping an entirely different article on the MP is rubbish. Either the bold-linked article is timely or it's not; Or the daughter articles are referenced or they're not. It can't be a bit of both. The article for the Security Law is better, in that it is the catalyst for the current protests, and includes timely and referenced updates. Perhaps that's enough to keep this in Ongoing, but this is becoming a game of whack-a-mole. How are we supposed to make sure readers see the daughter article that they are "supposed" to see and not the utter trash that we wouldn't post in a million years?130.233.3.8 (talk) 07:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 12

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June 12, 2020 (2020-06-12) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Stale) RD: Kirvan Fortuin

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Article: Kirvan Fortuin (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Independent Online (South Africa), RTL Nieuws (Netherlands)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: South African dancer and LGBTQI activist, stabbed to death. Fram (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Stale) RD: Ali Hadi

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Article: Ali Hadi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The AFC, Goal.com
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Iraqi football player and manager, who died on 12 June 2020 after contracting COVID-19. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Ricky Valance

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Article: Ricky Valance (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 04:06, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a brief paragraph, but the sourcing could be better. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Much better, thanks. P-K3 (talk) 22:58, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Lebanon protests

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Unlikely to gain consensus. --qedk (t 愛 c) 20:39, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2019–2020 Lebanese protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Soldiers deployed to calm renewed protests in Lebanon are attacked by protestors as the Lebanese pound begins to nosedive. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Long article, but in good shape. Kingsif (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Lino Esterino Garavaglia

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Article: Lino Esterino Garavaglia (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [38]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Catholic bishop who served as the bishop of Tivoli and Cesena-Sarsina which both have over 160,000 people. Jon698 (talk) 18:48 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@Bloom6132: Fixed. Please review your position or make further comments. —Jon698 (talk) 08:20 13 June 2020 (UTC)
Your updated lead makes it sound like he only became bishop in the 1990s, when in fact he was consecrated in 1986. Also, what's with the bizarre terminology? Bishops don't get "elected" (they're appointed), nor do they "enter the diocese" (also inaccurate, since he was already there as its coadjutor). Was this just crudely translated off one of the existing foreign language versions? —Bloom6132 (talk) 09:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bloom6132: Sorry it is 4 a.m. where I am. I did not translate from the Italian page and instead translated Italian news articles about him. The "elected" part is just a force of habit because I usually edit politician articles lmao. —Jon698 (talk) 09:49 13 June 2020 (UTC)
@Jon698: No worries. My apologies that my question came across as kinda brash. It's just that if this had been translated from other language Wikimedia projects, it would have required attribution per WP:TFOLWP. Striking my oppose now. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to weak oppose in light of TRM's comments. —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:48, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bloom6132: @The Rambling Man: Okay I have made some edits to the page. How does it look now? — Jon698 (talk) 20:32 14 June 2020 (UTC)
It's definitely better. Sources need publishers or works (e.g. newspaper/magazine etc) to be added though. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:42, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: Done. — Jon698 (talk) 20:58 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Weak support okay, it's much better than it was, still a CV basically but more comprehensive and reasonably well formatted. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:02, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: William S. Sessions

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Article: William S. Sessions (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): San Antonio Express-News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former FBI director and federal judge Bloom6132 (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Carl Brewer (politician)

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Article: Carl Brewer (politician) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [39]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: The first elected black mayor of Wichita, Kansas Jon698 (talk) 18:48 12 June 2020 (UTC)

(Posted) RD: Perfecto Yasay Jr.

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Article: Perfecto Yasay Jr. (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Philippine Daily Inquirer; Manila Bulletin; ABS-CBN News; Philippine Star; GMA News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Secretary of Foreign Affairs of the Philippines. Passed away due to "pneumonia caused by the recurrence of his cancer", but not COVID-19. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 05:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support - tags have indeed been taken care of. Good work Howard the Duck. Pinging Bloom6132 who had similar concerns to mine. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 11

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June 11, 2020 (2020-06-11) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

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Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Closed) United States imposes sanctions on the International Criminal Court

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Consensus strongly against this. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 05:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: International Criminal Court (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ United States imposes sanctions on the International Criminal Court (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ United States imposes sanctions on International Criminal Court officials
News source(s): [40][41]
Credits:

Article updated
 Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:30, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
An important development. ITN-worthy. El_C 05:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Dennis O'Neil

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Stale. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Dennis O'Neil (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New York Post, GamesRadar+
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American comic book writer and editor for Marvel and DC. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem: if you could point out the gaps, I'd be happy to add sources. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:36, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@PCN02WPS: I've added cn tags where I think claims need sources and I tagged the entire bibliography section which is essentially unsourced. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:47, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: I would like to assist with this - Can someone point towards the bibliography section of a comic book writer that is adequately souced, that we could model the O'Neil bibliography after, in hopes of making his article appropriate for RD? KConWiki (talk) 15:10, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@KConWiki: There are 942 articles in Category:American comics writers; I'll try to find one with a good bibliography. Admittedly, I know very little about comic books. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:09, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks PCN - I know something about comics (and from that knowledge I formed my opinion of the significance of Denny O'Neil) but one thing I have never really pursued is the appropriate citations for a comics bibliography on WP. There are numerous that I have looked at that do not have citations, so I am pursuing opinions here about what is needed for a good bibliography citation. Thanks for all you do WP and thanks for your interest in O'Neil. KConWiki (talk) 17:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Rosa Maria Sardà

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Article: Rosa Maria Sardà (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (El País)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: One of the most recognized and awarded Spanish actresses. The article is a mess, but I'm working on it with what little free time I have Alsoriano97 (talk) 11:10, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Emmanuel Issoze-Ngondet

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Article: Emmanuel Issoze-Ngondet (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Jeune Afrique, Gabon Actu
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Prime minister of Gabon until last year, died from an asthmatic crisis (but not Covid-19, apparently). Article looks fully sourced. Fram (talk) 08:56, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 10

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June 10, 2020 (2020-06-10) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Claudell Washington

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Article: Claudell Washington (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press; NBC Sports; San Francisco Chronicle
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Rosita Fornés

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Article: Rosita Fornés (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sun Sentinel, Miami Herald
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Cuban American actress. - Indefensible (talk) 02:32, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Pau Donés

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Article: Pau Donés (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (Fox News)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Popular singer for various generations in Spain. Death reported also in American, Italian, Portuguese newspapers. Article in good shape. - Alsoriano97 (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Olof Palme assassination verdict

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Consensus will not develop to post. Stephen 03:08, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Assassination of Olof Palme (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Swedish prosecutor names Stig Engström as the perpetrator of assassination of Olof Palme and closes the related investigation. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, News.az
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Although the identification reportedly was not conclusive, this looks like a historical step. Brandmeistertalk 16:14, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Approved) Ongoing consensus: George Floyd protests

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Closed in favour of rolling into Ongoing, but as noted, it may take a while in which case this may need to be re-visited in any case. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: George Floyd protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: No blurb specified (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: The protests are now at the bottom of the box and may soon roll off. This thread should discuss whether the protests should automatically move into ongoing once the blurb has been rolled. I know this will almost certainly be complete support, but it's better to have this made explicit for when an admin adds a new blurb to the page.  Nixinova   T   C   06:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Assault on Martin Gugino

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Not a chance of there being consensus for this. Stephen 05:34, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Assault on Martin Gugino (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ After the assault on Martin Gugiono by police, President Trump promotes unfounded conspiracy theory. (Post)
Credits:
 Feoffer (talk) 04:29, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

June 9

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June 9, 2020 (2020-06-09) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Joseph Rizzo

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Come back when there's an article. Stephen 04:05, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Joseph Rizzo (fire commissioner) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Philadelphia Inquirer
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article does not exist, but should. There is already another Joseph Rizzo on WP. 73.81.116.68 (talk) 01:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If there's no article, there's nothing for us to assess, let alone post. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:11, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nom Comment Joseph Rizzo, who died June 1, but apparently the death was not announced until today, was the brother of the notorious Philadelphia mayor Frank Rizzo, who has been in the news again, now that his prominent city statue and mural have been at long last "deprecated" as part of the George Floyd protests. Joseph had been appointed city fire commissioner by Frank when he was elected mayor. There were plenty of news stories about him in the local press back in the 1970s and 1980s. 73.81.116.68 (talk) 01:01, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Pierre Nkurunziza

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Article: Pierre Nkurunziza (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ President Pierre Nkurunziza of Burundi dies of a heart attack. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Incumbent Burundi President Pierre Nkurunziza dies of a heart attack.
News source(s): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-52984119
Credits:

Nominator's comments: No, the article is nowhere near acceptable. Nominating as sudden death of elected head of state. KTC (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose on quality. But I would probably say that we should support a blurb on this to avoid any bias : the death of a sitting elected head of state regardless of size should be mentioned as a blurb even if this is not going to be major news. --Masem (t) 14:48, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A good ITN nomination but the article needs work, especially referencing issues. Gotitbro (talk) 15:09, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Now that the issues have been addressed. Though the article is a bit short it should suffice. Gotitbro (talk) 02:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support article improvement is impressive, blurb is certainly the right move here. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 8

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June 8, 2020 (2020-06-08) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

  • Multinational energy company BP announces in a conference call that it is cutting 15% of its workforce, which is roughly 10,000 jobs. (Reuters)

Health and environment

(Posted) RD: Manuel Felguérez

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Article: Manuel Felguérez (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Fahrenheit Magazine
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Mexican artist. - Indefensible (talk) 05:53, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Tony Dunne

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Article: Tony Dunne (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Long-serving Manchester United and Ireland footballer. Needs more work, which I'm going to look at now. Looks satisfactory now. Black Kite (talk) 23:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 7

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June 7, 2020 (2020-06-07) (Sunday)
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Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Hubert Gagnon

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Article: Hubert Gagnon (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CTV News / Canadian Press; CBC Radio-Canada (in French); Le Journal de Montréal (in French)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Voice actor who dubbed Homer in the French version of The Simpsons. Bloom6132 (talk) 15:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Frank Bey

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Article: Frank Bey (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): American Blues Scene
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American musician. - Indefensible (talk) 06:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Kurt Thomas (gymnast)

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Article: Kurt Thomas (gymnast) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press; The New York Times; The Indianapolis Star
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Died on June 5, but only reported on June 7. Bloom6132 (talk) 08:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Statue of Edward Colston

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Consensus is not going to form for this to be posted. Black Kite (talk) 22:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

 
Article: Statue of Edward Colston (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ During a Black Lives Matter protest, a statue of Edward Colston (pictured) is pulled down and thrown into the harbour at Bristol, United Kingdom. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ During global protests of the killing of George Floyd, a statue of Edward Colston (pictured) is pulled down and thrown into the harbour at Bristol, United Kingdom.
News source(s): BBC, CNN
Credits:

Article updated
 Mjroots (talk) 02:15, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering how this is local news when this occurred as a result of a protest protesting an event in the United States. 331dot (talk) 10:27, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Black Lives Matter campaign is global, and predates George Floyd's death. The campaign against the Colston statue is also long-established in Bristol - for at least 25 years. So, it's disingenuous to link the toppling of the statue too closely with recent events in the US - the two campaigns have come together and of course are related to each other, but the toppling did not occur simply "as a result of" the US events. It's more complicated than that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:53, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is more complicated than that, but it's a safe bet to conclude that this statue would not have been toppled and tossed into the harbour in this fashion were it not for the sad events in the US. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stephen I would call destroying a statue and vandalizing another(the Winston Churchill statue in London) a riot. 331dot (talk) 11:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: This is a news story of purely local interest dealing with a non-notable statute in a provincial city. There's an analogy to the painting of the "Black Lives Matter" slogan in Washington DC and is only part of a notable news story. Would we be having this discussion if a similarly anonymous statue was pulled down in Boulogne, Hamburg or Baltimore? —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Brigade Piron If the statue is not notable, then you should propose the deletion of the article and also ask the BBC to stop covering it. This statue has a long history and efforts to remove it did not start with the BLM protests, but did end with it. 331dot (talk) 11:19, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
331dot, that does not follow at all. I note the article for Statue of Edward Colston was created only yesterday and I very much doubt it would have met the WP:GNG if it had not been pulled down. As it happens, I do think that an article on the subject (as opposed to an entry elsewhere) is premature and an example of WP:RECENTISM. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's plenty of sources from years past already cited in the article. WP:BEFORE doesn't get much easier.—Bagumba (talk) 11:43, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The statue is clearly notable - not only because of yesterday's events, and not only because many Grade II listed buildings have articles, but also because of the controversy that has developed about the statue over several decades. But that does not necessarily mean that this story is sufficiently notable for the main page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:47, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This sort of jaw-dropping mentality is exactly why British and American Wikipedians won't see eye-to-eye on ITN.--WaltCip (talk) 12:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@WaltCip: As it happens, I am a British Wikipedian but I am also very conscious of WP:BIAS. What is your point? —Brigade Piron (talk) 12:58, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is not a local story, it is related to the worldwide protests even though efforts to remove it are not new. I learned something about this subject and believe others will too. 331dot (talk) 11:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral - I don't see why the pulling down of statues in Boulogne, Hamburg or Baltimore would not be remarkable. The relative population of the locality isn't really the issue here, it's the significance and unusual nature of the event. In the context of the overall protest movement right now though, I can see the argument that this isn't the biggest thing going on, and there'd be a question over whether this story replaces or complements the protest blurb. Events in the US have probably been more significant than events in Bristol. I definitely support Mjroots update to the protests blurb to add "and elsewhere" though. The protests (and borderline riots too) in countries other than the US have reached ITN level in their own right.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This sort of stuff is a big deal. Imagine if Nelson's Column got pulled down. The outrage there would be staggering!--WaltCip (talk) 11:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Scale and significance matter. A statue in Bristol does not equate to Nelson's Column. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the felling of this statue made the news is proof as to its significance. And it's a good article. What more is needed?--WaltCip (talk) 12:31, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not everything that makes a national news goes on the main page here, obviously. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Brigade Piron.Alsoriano97 (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose Seriously - this is part of the Floyd protests which are still up (and will go to ongoing), and mostly symbolic compared to the actual intent of the protests. In the States, numerous Confederate statues have been vandalized and taken down as well. And the fact that everyone was clear that the BLM Mural (which was a much more significant message in the larger picture) was quickly accessed as part of the protests at ITN (appropriately) but we're treating this as something special? BS. This wasn't the first major overseas even in support of the protests, won't be the last, and to try to call this out over a bunch of things that are more central to the core of why these protests are happening in the States right now is detracting terribly. --Masem (t) 12:54, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    BS? It is something special as adequately demonstrated above. And just because it wasn't in the US, it doesn't mean it's not central to the core of the issue at hand. That really is BS. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It is BS that its losing focus on what this event is relative to the protests. It's great that it may be a quality article and in the news, but it is a part of the protests and a small aspect of it. We've not posted other separates of the protest, just as we've not posted other parts of the COVID situation. This feels like extreme bias judging by the comments, not seeing the forest through the trees of how this looks int he biggest picture of the protest event. --Masem (t) 15:06, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Interesting and unusual story in the news, and a decent new article to highlight. P-K3 (talk) 13:07, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support I was all ready to oppose this, but then I remembered the primary purpose of the MP is to direct readers to quality articles. This is a very nice article, better than many we post at ITN. The significance is fine; my only concern is that the blurb make clear this is distinct from the Floyd protests, such that it is not a duplicate post. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:18, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Per Amakuru. Interesting but passing episode in the much larger gobal story. AFAIK, Edward Colston isn't a headline name. (If Oxford got rid of its Cecil Rhodes statue,[42] that would be significant.) – Sca (talk) 14:06, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose really? We snow closed the painting of "Black lives matter" in enormous letters in the American capitol but are seriously considering the destruction of a 100 year old statue on the English coast? Really? Come on --LaserLegs (talk) 14:39, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Tangential point: Bristol is not on the coast. Modest Genius talk 20:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – UK-bias within a global event ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 15:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • However, a blurb update to mention that the protests have become a global event could very well be warranted...but mentioning a single statue in the UK is not appropriate here, regardless of article quality. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 16:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That change ("...and elsewhere") was made earlier. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:23, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I missed that update, then. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 16:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's all there in the template's history. Mjroots (talk) 16:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Age discrimination is prohibited by Title VII of the U.S. Civil Rights Act of 1964, and is logically invalid. – Sca (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Chiranjeevi Sarja

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Article: Chiranjeevi Sarja (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CNN, Deccan Chronicle
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: notable Indian actor. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 19:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment needs references in "Early life" section and the filmography, will support when these are fixed JW 1961 Talk 19:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 6

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June 6, 2020 (2020-06-06) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Reche Caldwell

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Article: Reche Caldwell (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Independent Online (South Africa), Het Nieuwsblad (Dutch language, Belgium), Mundo Deportivo (Spain)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Unexpected, violent death. Article seems well-sourced but please check and tag where needed. I have given the name of the first updater (with sources), but many others contributed as well (I did not contribute, I only nominate this one). Fram (talk) 15:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Stale) RD: Clayton Bailey

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Article: Clayton Bailey (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): SF chronicle
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Significant SF Bay-Area based ceramicist and sculptor, main figure in Nut art movement, used recycled materials. --Wil540 art (talk) 11:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 5

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June 5, 2020 (2020-06-05) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents
  • A three-alarm fire causes major damage to Amazon's distribution center in Redlands, California. Despite the extent of the damage and the collapse of the roof, no injuries are reported as the staff was safely evacuated. The cause of the fire is currently under investigation. (CNN)

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Rupert Hine

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(Posted) RD: George V. Murry

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(Closed) Black Lives Matter mural in Washington, DC

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(Closed) Pandemic has made US billionaires $565 billion richer

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(Closed) Doubts on reliability of Surgisphere data

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  • I know we have an encyclopedia handy and that the article's just a click away, but the blurb really needs to do a better job of explaining the significance here. —Cryptic 10:53, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest amend blurb to highlight that retracted articles influenced WHO decision on hydroxycholoroquine. Maybe After prompting the WHO to cancel drug trials, unreliable Surgisphere data studies are retracted. Paul W (talk) 11:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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June 4

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(Posted) RD: Marcello Abbado

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Siege of Tripoli lifted

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My conversion to prose was reverted, so it's back to proseline. I'll let others decide which format is more suitable. Modest Genius talk 12:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 
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The GNA didn't really 'recapture' Tripoli though; most of it was never lost, just the southern suburbs and the airport (if I'm understanding the article correctly). Modest Genius talk 12:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Readd to Ongoing: 2019–20 Hong Kong protests

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  • Would have nominated this but the article has an orange banner currently, so not sure it is ready to be posted. - Indefensible (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • The two tags are size related. The first one is length but I get 103k prose length - that's probably the max we'd want and yes, a split is needed but its not too long. That tag could go. The lede thus actually seems right for those, but that could be reduced. Annoying, both tags appear to be "drive-by", no talk page discussion (until yours just now) on these, so I'd say that we can remove that or understand that those have little do with quality in contrast to the usual sourcing problems. --Masem (t) 19:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I think we kind of have to at this point.--WaltCip (talk) 19:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Probably the best target article for 'a lot of things building in Hong Kong'. Kingsif (talk) 20:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - now it is time to add this.BabbaQ (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The orange tags are only indicating that the article may be too lengthy, but this isn't a quality issue or a verification issue.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, support China's legislation being a blurb if/when it happens. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:06, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per above. Davey2116 (talk) 22:32, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose orange tagged for quality and not one single update provides any meaningful stat about the size of the current protests. "The mass march on 24 May in Causeway Bay was the largest protest since the beginning of the pandemic" tells me nothing. However important you think this is, if it doesn't meaningfully inform our readers it has no place in the box. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:34, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yet again, as explained several times before, the protests have grown so large, the updates are in the summary-style sub-articles, and may not always filter up to the top article. As long as the structure of the summary style is clear and appearent to help readers navigate to where they need to go (which they are in this case). --Masem (t) 02:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The length is a problem, as the reader will be confused why this is exceeding long article about an exceedingly long event is in the box now. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two of the last three blurb noms are for Hong Kong, and another two lower down, with the general response being 'HK should be in the box, but as ongoing'. It gets nommed for ongoing, and your argument is that readers won't know why it's in the box now - for such a complex situation, one article may not be so obvious, but it's the main article tying all the current events together. To make it clear why the protests have picked up again, we'd need about four blurbs. Can you see a circle? Just stick with the easy option - article with lots of relevant subpages (that are right by the top!) to ongoing. A reader will see 'Hong Kong protests' in ongoing and think 'ah, so the HK protests have started up again'. Kingsif (talk) 01:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - article may be too lengthy, but quality and significance are not issues here. RedBulbBlueBlood9911Talk 02:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted to ongoing. The orange tags deal with editorial rather than sourcing issues, so OK to post. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:35, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting comment – Quality is always an issue. The recurring unrest in Hong Kong is a very significant in international politics, but this article's length, at 19,000 words, is obviously OTT. A good copy editor knowledgeable about the topic could shrink it by half. – Sca (talk) 12:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's just at the edge where some split is needed, but its not demanded. (I had 103k of readable prose). I dunno if it is more a copyedit moreso than a reflection on what's more important to be at the top level wth months now past for some of onset events and pushing details to the sub-articles, but its far less the type "quality" that we'd be worried about with other ITN candidates (poor sourcing , etc.) --Masem (t) 13:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I said "knowledgeable about the topic" – meaning one who could judge what the salient events were. We don't need to see every incremental detail of this long saga. – Sca (talk) 14:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
100% agree. Not here, somewhere else, we need to work on some type of system for when we get stuck in this type of "hyperreporting" mode (where editors are documenting details without thought to longevity, as to at least collect sources) so that editors go back to trim down to more essentials. These protests, the COVID pages, the Floyd protests, and many many more articles need this 20/20 hindsight fix. I would not penalize a topic at ongoing ITN for not having this done while it is actually still ongoing news in reality but it is a point to keep in mind as you say. --Masem (t) 15:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea if this story is "important" or not because this WP:COATRACK of an article is too busy giving WP:UNDUE weight to the agitators and not enough describing actual protests. Even the much lauded "sub articles" don't describe a single actual protest march in detail, but they do go on and on about various MPs, international response, and public statements from agitators. The article(s) are complete turds about something that's largely a non-event and these sorts of "hyper edits" are what's going to make it nearly impossible for me to crowbar this shit off the main page when every time I try POV warriors who otherwise ignore the box pop up out of the floor boards to exclaim "Keep - VERY IMPORTANT, updated yesterday, still in the news". Every single time without fail. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 31st anniversary of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests

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(Posted) Norilsk diesel spill

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Support iff 2020 Norilsk oil spill is the bold link. That article is short but informative and meets our minimum criteria. Modest Genius talk 15:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have expanded the details in the article. The Norilsk article seems the best place for this currently as it provides lots of context about this unusual place – notable as the mostly northerly city and also one of the most polluted places on the planet. The article also gives details of the previous spill in 2016 which turned another river red. The river system does not seem to be well covered on Wikipedia currently but I have made a start by creating Ambarnaya. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on principle - massive oil spill by all means - but Oppose that this probably could be expanded more than just beyond the current paragraph. Reading the BBC article alone gives more details to be added. --Masem (t) 13:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose Target article has a few referencing issues, and as noted by Masem, the single paragraph update is a bit weak. I'd still support it, though, if the referencing issues were fixed. --Jayron32 16:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment More than a paragraph about this event in the city's article would be UNDUE. A separate event article (which seems to be suggested) would be fine, as well. But we have a very decent article about a little-known locale in the Anglosphere, containing a thorough suitably-referenced update reported by RSs. I can't see the oppose angle to this. I am unsure what refencing issues there are because no one has placed any CNs and spot check looks good.130.233.2.170 (talk) 07:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That separate article was created by cut/paste of the existing content without any attribution and that's a copyright violation, contrary to WP:PLAGIARISM. I reverted but the content has been put back. For ITN purposes, I reckon that the Norilsk article is still best because it is a substantial article with lots of good context. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't claim the text I copied over as my own work. Copying from one article on Wikipedia to another related article on Wikipedia to create a new article is pretty standard, it happens every day and is well with the rules AFAIK. It could be misconstrued as plagiarism, but we're all writing under Creative Commons here and the same references were kept in place. I'm sorry to have brushed you up the wrong way, I hope we can work together resulting in one central article that befits the gravity of the incident. DieRadfahrerin (talk) 10:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Andrew's right, a pure copy/paste is a violation of the Creative Commons licensing which requires correct attribution and when your edit introduces a bunch of text from another article and you don't allow that attribution to be determined, that's bad. It certainly is not "well within the rules". If I reuse text from other articles (even if I'm normally just about the sole author), I add something similar to what you find at Talk:The Boat Race 2019 by way of attribution, i.e. permalinks to the article from which the text was taken and the version of the article it was inserted into. Just plain manners if nothing else. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – The target article should be one about the oil spill, not a general one about features of the locality (its "cold, dark, and long" winters, for example). The Norilsk article contains one (1) paragraph about the spill. And as noted, the new, separate 2020 Norilsk oil spill article is a stub. – Sca (talk) 13:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support iff 2020 Norilsk oil spill, as suggested by Modest Genius is the bold link. The article is short but concise, and continues to evolve. DieRadfahrerin (talk) 17:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've made the oil spill article the target, which is good enough to support for this. --Masem (t) 18:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment marking as ready but I'm not convinced that image is offering anything about the actual story really. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 19:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Shame that the pictures of the oil-flooded rivers are all copyrighted. I agree that Putin staring at a monitor isn't a great main page replacement image. --Masem (t) 19:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The picture shows Putin holding a teleconference about the matter and so is directly relevant. It also seems quite topical in that such videoconferencing is the new normal now and it is interesting to see them being done in Russia too. They released the picture under a CC licence and we should encourage governments to do this as we are not spoilt for choice – it's quite hard to get good pictures for our articles. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support The List of oil spills shows that in the last fifty years since 1970 there have been ~40 as large as this, (1) including ~20 of such spills as large in the ninteen-seventies alone. However, such large spills have become less frequent, with only five other spills so large since the year 2000: the Prestige, the Tasman Spirit, the Jiyeh power station, the Deepwater Horizon, and the Sanchi. DougEMandy (talk) 19:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC) edit links DougEMandy (talk) 19:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dont think anyone is pointing out the largeness related to others here. It is a large spill; what is unique is that it was primarily inland , not from a tanker or other waterway issue, and a result from permafrost thaw (as currently being evaluated) from climate change. Even if it was a spill because a worker accidentally knocked out a support beam, we'd still be reporting on a spill this size. Its in the news. --Masem (t) 19:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose Removing ready. Although there is consensus to support posting an item, article needs some more expansion: while it has the minimum three paragraphs, they are not fully complete/well-formed to meet minimum criteria. A reaction session may also be worthwhile. SpencerT•C 19:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Given the seriously remote location of Norilsk, in Russia's far north, I question whether a diesel spill there has broad significance. This isn't 75 mi. from New Orleans in the Gulf of Mexico. – Sca (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The size of the spill is comparable with the Exxon Valdez oil spill which also took place in the far north and was thought to be a big deal. Also, it's not a one-off as Norilsk is routinely generating huge amounts of pollution of various kinds. Putin seems to think it's a big deal -- hence the state of emergency and imprisonment of the plant manager. As the Arctic thaws and opens to up to further exploitation, it seems sensible to highlight the consequences as they occur. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Note, though, that Norilsk (69 N. lat.) is farther north than Valdez (61 N. lat.), and more remote from main sea routes. – Sca (talk) 14:17, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would also add to what Andrew has said by saying I think there is broad public interest globally both in human-caused environmental disasters in the Arctic Circle (and maybe the blurb should mention the event occured within that), and the effect of climate change on Siberia's permafrost, similarly to the global interest in the endangered rainforests. DieRadfahrerin (talk) 23:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, someone beat me to it: ESA satellite imagery here would be good. There's the animation in the article, looking for a good still though, as they actually caught the red-ness of the fuel in this. --Masem (t) 00:01, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 3

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RD: Abdelmalek Droukdel

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(Posted) RD: Bruce Jay Friedman

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RD: Shaukat Manzoor Cheema

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(Closed) British Hong Kong citizenship proposal

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(Closed) Ongoing: COVID-19 pandemic

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(Posted) RD: Mohsen Ibrahim

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Posting! --Tone 20:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

June 2

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(Stale) RD: Ghulam Murtaza Baloch

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(Posted) RD: Héctor Suárez

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(Posted) RD: Carlo Ubbiali

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  • Comment References are in order and the <1.5 kb of prose that is already there is very good, but it gives so far no information about the subject beyond birth, death, and CV. A few sentences about family or education or life outside of motorsport and I could support.130.233.2.170 (talk) 10:51, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose support What's there is ok, but per the IP, it could use a little more detail. This individual lived for 90 years, there must be something else to say apart from the 11 years of his racing career.-- P-K3 (talk) 12:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems he lived a very quiet life after retiring as a professional racer, the Italian article does not have much else to add either. There are a couple of awards he won late in life related to his career, which are noted in the article. The only other thing I can find seems to be that he took over his father's motorcycle shop after being a racer, but the source is a blog. - Indefensible (talk) 16:35, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Wes Unseld

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(Posted) RD: Arrogate

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(Stale) RD: Munir Khan Orakzai

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June 1

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(Closed) RD: David McAtee

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The horse's article is a BLP (per the non-human exceptions at RD), nearly every article posted to RD is a BLP; I can't imagine you thought this was a coincidence. The rare exceptions have articles with a wealth of personal knowledge about the individual, as opposed to a COATRACK like this. While there are no firm rules, there is established practice and guidelines, and this cleanly fits into one of those - a non-RD blurb.130.233.2.170 (talk) 06:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Tq WP:AGF. Earth-shattering scheme, indeed.—Bagumba (talk) 06:45, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - while this may qualify for RD without having to break any rules, I think it is already covered under the "Deaths" section of the George Floyd protests entry, which is currently posted. (It may be beneficial to move the protests link to Ongoing soon.) Otherwise, all of the other related deaths which are similarly given their own article, e.g. the Death of David Dorn, should also be posted to RD on the same basis once they meet the same level of quality. - Indefensible (talk) 05:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Imho, RD is to highlight notable individuals who have died so people who might not have heard about them yet are intrigued to read the article in question. Per WP:ITNRD: Template:Xt (emphasis added). With all due respects to McAtee, I think we can agree that he was not someone who would have had an article about his life's work. He is only notable because of how he died. That means it could be considered as a blurb but ITN-worthiness seems lacking compared to Floyd's death which sparked the protests. Regards SoWhy 06:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Posted) RD: Silver Donald Cameron

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(Closed) RD: Myroslav Skoryk

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